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Problem with Election

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sdowney717

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Amen! Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).
Yes, completely and entirely of Him.
All things work to the good of them that Love God who are the called according to His purpose.
If your not called, then not all things work to your good, there is much evil in the world uncalled reprobate people experience, and it does them harm and not anything good, but this is also deserved as their sin requires God's justice, and only He may choose to show to them mercy or not and He says He does that according to His purpose and will. I tell you what I do, I ask Him for help everyday, anything I am doing I seek His aid, I tell Him I need His help and I really really do need His help for without Him I can do nothing.
 
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Butch5

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Sorry but your so wrong again, I can only respond in a logical way that makes sense according to the scripture.

No you're not. You're ignoring everything i present and jumping from one passage to the next. There is no logic in what you're doing.
 
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98cwitr

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Butch5

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No, you didn't. Paul refers to one group: Παῦλος ἀπόστολος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖςἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.

If there were two groups, there would be a τοῖς in front of πιστοῖςἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (which would make it "and to the faithful in Christ Jesus").

As I pointed out, translators are agreed that there is only one group. It's not like the NASB is different from the ESV, CSB, NIV, etc.

And as I pointed out Paul uses first and second personal plural pronouns. That's two groups.
 
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sdowney717

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No you're not. You're ignoring everything i present and jumping from one passage to the next. There is no logic in what you're doing.
You have said that before and frankly I just don't see it.
Scripture is always in agreement with itself, if it seems like it is not, then our understanding is wrong.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and all of it is profitable for understanding other scripture.
 
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Butch5

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Thanks for sharing. Well, me & Red believe Paul is addressing both as one. So please explain, your point, here? And sorry for the delay. I wasn't feeling well yesterday.

I did explain it. Paul uses first and second person personal plural pronouns. That's grammar. It's not my opinion or interpretation. It's Greek grammar. If you don't believe it you're simply denying the grammar or the Greek text.
 
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Butch5

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I believe that Paul was addressing everyone who had attended. Both Jews & Gentiles alike. I also believe there were unbelievers in the crowd.

What is Grace?

Grace is God’s unmerited favor to ill-deserving sinners in Jesus Christ. The presence of the risen Christ, extending God’s forgiveness and power so that God’s provision of His Son for redemption is effected through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man.

Grace is eternal (II Tim. 1:9), immutable (Rom. 11:29), sovereign (Rom. 9:11-24), effectual (Eph. 2:8-9; John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65), and destroys all room for human boasting (I Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7). It means that the Triune God gets all the praise, honor, and glory for our salvation: The Father for planning it, the Son for purchasing it, and the Holy Spirit for applying and uniting us to it (Eph. 1:2-14). Christ is not only efficient, but is alone sufficient for salvation (Heb 9:12; 10:10) such that our own merit or works righteousness can do nothing to either attain or maintain our justification. The assistance of grace does not even depend on the humility or obedience of man ... for it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble ...as the Apostle says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Faith is, therefore, not a product of our unregenerated human nature (John 1:13, 6:63-65; Rom 9:16) but is exercised as the infallible result of the work of the Holy Spirit opening our eyes and ears to the beauty of the gospel, turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh and uniting us to Christ.
Monergism.com

There is no human boasting or claims we can make it in earning or meriting it. And this pertains to both Jew & Gentile alike.

Romans 3:21 For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

By Grace Through Faith

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ

11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Paul is making it clear that there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fallen short. Paul says we are all in the same boat.

Hope this helps. If I come off too direct, please let me know. I am dealing with a lot of pain, so please bear with me. I apologize in advance if I do.

God Bless!

In Christ, Our Justification, Our Sanctification, and Our Redemption 1 Cor. 1:30

You didn't tell me where you believe I have Ephesians 1 wrong. You just posted what you believe.
 
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Butch5

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Can you expound further for me?

Sure. God created all things and place man in charge of the creation. Man messed it up. God determined to redeem it. He did this through Abraham and his seed. Christ is the seed of Abraham, the one who the promise of the inheritance was made. That inheritance includes the land. Christ died to redeem mankind and he will rule over the creation before turning it over to the Father.
 
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Butch5

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You have said that before and frankly I just don't see it.
Scripture is always in agreement with itself, if it seems like it is not, then our understanding is wrong.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and all of it is profitable for understanding other scripture.

Scripture can't agree with anything, it is a writing. It doesn't have a mind. It is the human mind that must interpret the Scriptures. When there is disagreement there is misunderstanding. However, as I said, you haven't address what I presented. You just say, 'wrong' and jump to another passage. The passages aren't even incontext. Paul uses first and second person plural pronouns in Ephesians 1 showing clearly that there are two groups of people
 
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sdowney717

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Scripture can't agree with anything, it is a writing. It doesn't have a mind. It is the human mind that must interpret the Scriptures. When there is disagreement there is misunderstanding. However, as I said, you haven't address what I presented. You just say, 'wrong' and jump to another passage. The passages aren't even incontext. Paul uses first and second person plural pronouns in Ephesians 1 showing clearly that there are two groups of people
I differ with you somewhat on that.
I also believe scripture is God breathed words, not just man's words. The mind behind the words is God's mind. When we understand the scripture we understand why God does what God does. We do not understand scripture except if God reveals to us the meaning of the scriptures. Otherwise we get it wrong.

Luke 24:44-46 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Scriptures Opened
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [a]and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
 
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Butch5

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I differ with you somewhat on that.
I also believe scripture is God breathed words, not just man's words. The mind behind the words is God's mind. When we understand the scripture we understand why God does what God does. We do not understand scripture except if God reveals to us the meaning of the scriptures. Otherwise we get it wrong.

Luke 24:44-46 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Scriptures Opened
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [a]and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,

The originals were God breathed. The translations come from men.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. Jesus opened the understanding of those men who were with Him. It doesn't say anything about anyone else. He opened their understanding not your's or mine.
 
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ladodgers6

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Yes, completely and entirely of Him.
All things work to the good of them that Love God who are the called according to His purpose.
If your not called, then not all things work to your good, there is much evil in the world uncalled reprobate people experience, and it does them harm and not anything good, but this is also deserved as their sin requires God's justice, and only He may choose to show to them mercy or not and He says He does that according to His purpose and will. I tell you what I do, I ask Him for help everyday, anything I am doing I seek His aid, I tell Him I need His help and I really really do need His help for without Him I can do nothing.
Thanks brother for sharing. Check this out. Graeme Goldsworthy once wrote, that even Christians need to hear the Gospel of Christ that Paul preached every single day!

The Swiss theologian Roger Nicole made tremendous contributions to the church in the twentieth century and continues to do so today. He once made the observation that we are, by nature, Pelagian. We assume that we have the power to incline our hearts to Christ while we are yet in the flesh. Our natural hostility to the sovereignty of grace is not instantly cured by conversion, which is why a majority of Christians still ride the horse of semi-Pelagianism and seek to escape the full implication of the doctrine of election.

Its by Christ Alone!

Keep fighting the good fight, brother.

Check out this site: www.whitehorseinn.org

White Horse use to be a tavern in the 1500's where common people would gather to debate theological issues
 
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sdowney717

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The originals were God breathed. The translations come from men.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. Jesus opened the understanding of those men who were with Him. It doesn't say anything about anyone else. He opened their understanding not your's or mine.
We better hope He opens the understanding of other than them, and I do believe He does as Paul tells the Ephesians here

Ephesians 1:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of your [a]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
 
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ladodgers6

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I did explain it. Paul uses first and second person personal plural pronouns. That's grammar. It's not my opinion or interpretation. It's Greek grammar. If you don't believe it you're simply denying the grammar or the Greek text.

Thanks for sharing I will check into it. But isn't the Law & Gospel preached to pronouns, anyway? I have no problem with this.

Because Luther said that the Gospel is offered to pronouns (You, Me, etc.)
 
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ladodgers6

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You didn't tell me where you believe I have Ephesians 1 wrong. You just posted what you believe.
I think we are not on the same page? I have been out of it. If you wouldn't mind? Ask me your question. Please be specific so that I do not caricature what you have asked?

Thanks in advance!

God Bless!
 
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ladodgers6

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Sure. God created all things and place man in charge of the creation. Man messed it up. God determined to redeem it. He did this through Abraham and his seed. Christ is the seed of Abraham, the one who the promise of the inheritance was made. That inheritance includes the land. Christ died to redeem mankind and he will rule over the creation before turning it over to the Father.

Thanks for sharing this. How did Christ 'REDEEM' mankind?
 
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ladodgers6

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The originals were God breathed. The translations come from men.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. Jesus opened the understanding of those men who were with Him. It doesn't say anything about anyone else. He opened their understanding not your's or mine.

I will just quote Scripture: 1 Cor. 2:14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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Butch5

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We better hope He opens the understanding of other than them, and I do believe He does as Paul tells the Ephesians here

Ephesians 1:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of your [a]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

That's about something different than the last passage. You really should look at the context pf these passages.
 
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