Problem with Election

[98cwitr]

Lucifer always had a choice.



JLB

Has he always existed?

 

[Bobber]

Has he always existed?

What are you getting at? Are you trying to show that God created Lucifer and just because he fell and became Satan, that means God still created the devil? Spell it out man! If you've got a point to make, make it.

 

[Butch5]

I'm not home right now. I will address this in more detail. Question for you. Do you believe that God has a plan of Redemption?

Sure! It's first mentioned in Genesis and ends in Revelation.

 

[Butch5]

I beg to differ. Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles. Paul in the book of Romans told the Jews that they are in the same book as the Gentiles. Under the curse of the Law due to sin. Paul was stripping away their so-called righteous acts; saying none are righteous, no one does good. That there is no separation between Jew & Gentiles. In Ephesians Paul again is addressing our plight before a holy God. By our walking in disobedience and our desires to the flesh. We are DEAD in trespasses & sins. So God elects us to be made ALIVE IN CHRIST.

Here is another passage for you, since you did not understand Ephesians.

It is because of HIM, that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--- that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor. 1:30

It is because of WHO, that you are in Christ Jesus?

Before jumping to other passages, please explain where you believe i have Ephesians 1 wrong. Clearly at the time Paul wrote the letter there were Jewish people and Gentile people in the world. I showed you from the grammar and the context that Paul is addressing this church as two groups of people, Jews and Gentiles. I can provide further evidence that Paul is referring to Jews in verse 3-12 of chapter 1. Paul said,

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph. 1:5 KJV)

He said that God had predestined them to the adoption. So, who was predestined to adoption. He writes of this same subject to the Romans.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)

Here Paul states plainly that the adoption pertains to Israel. He says that the adoption, the covenants, the promises, etc. belong to the fathers.

If we look at the context of the passage that's typically used for the Reformed doctrine of election it doesn't even talk about salvation. It says,

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph. 1:4 KJV)

The passage actually says that they were chosen to be holy and blameless. It doesn't say they were chosen to be saved. Who was chosen to be holy and blameless?

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deut. 7:6-8 KJV)

It is Israel that was chosen to be holy and blameless. Notice also the reason they were chosen. They were chosen because of the oath that God had made to their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[sdowney717]

Does not discount or disprove that faith comes from God. It is not self-manifested. To add:

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

For more confirmation, faith comes through HIM alone.
Every pure and perfect gift comes down from the Father.
Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

James 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

 

[sdowney717]

I've read much evidence to suggest it's salvation that's being talked about in Ephesians 2 as the subject of the verse. Not the faith. Salvation is not of ourselves or anything we did to bring it about except believe. But even if it was insisted that it's talking about faith. Still doesn't mean God hasn't provided it to all if they choose to believe the gospel. I could quote you faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and the gospel is to be preached to every creature. I do favor the first explanation though that salvation was the subject under discussion for the gift of God has always been defined as Salvation and eternal life. Romans 6:23

For more confirmation, faith comes through HIM alone.
Every pure and perfect gift comes down from the Father.
Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

James 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

James is warning us not to be deceived about God's gifts to us.
Without Him you can do nothing.

 

[redleghunter]

Before jumping to other passages, please explain where you believe i have Ephesians 1 wrong. Clearly at the time Paul wrote the letter there were Jewish people and Gentile people in the world. I showed you from the grammar and the context that Paul is addressing this church as two groups of people, Jews and Gentiles

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Ephesians 2:11-12)

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— (Ephesians 3:1)

Ephesians is addressed to a Gentile audience. Ephesians 2:9 is a dead give away.

17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (Ephesians 4:17-18)

 

[Butch5]

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Ephesians 2:11-12)

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— (Ephesians 3:1)

Ephesians is addressed to a Gentile audience. Ephesians 2:9 is a dead give away.

17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (Ephesians 4:17-18)

If you go back and read my earlier post I explained how Paul opens the letter to the saints in Ephesus and the faithful in Jesus Christ. That's two groups. Then in verses 3-12 he gives a praise to God for what He's done for Israel. Then in verse 13 he switches his attention to the Gentiles. The book is about how the two are brought together.

 

[John tower]

I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

For the bible itself's explanation on election go to : Romans 9(11-23)

 

[redleghunter]

If you go back and read my earlier post I explained how Paul opens the letter to the saints in Ephesus and the faithful in Jesus Christ. That's two groups. Then in verses 3-12 he gives a praise to God for what He's done for Israel. Then in verse 13 he switches his attention to the Gentiles. The book is about how the two are brought together.

One group:

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's the NASB what version are you using?

 

[ladodgers6]

For the bible itself's explanation on election go to : Romans 9(11-23)

I believe in God's election.

 

[Radagast]

If you go back and read my earlier post I explained how Paul opens the letter to the saints in Ephesus and the faithful in Jesus Christ. That's two groups.

The Greek is pretty clear that it's one group, and most translations show this:

CSB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.

ESV: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

NASB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

NIV: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

[redleghunter]

The Greek is pretty clear that it's one group, and most translations show this:

CSB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.

ESV: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

NASB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

NIV: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

It has to be two groups though. If it's just one group it means the following verses apply to individual election and would totally refute corporate election. You better find a version that agrees with the proposition.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How does God's sovereignty operate? Please provide Scriptures.

Thanks

This is a huge subject and probably only a test of me in the end. However, I am going to assume you are familair with the scripture because the whole of the Bible presents the view that I am going to share on his sovereignity. If a man is satisfied with extracting one verse and making it say what the rest of the book denys, then this is going to be disappointing. I go by the whole book. So I am going to refer to events and God's deeds at those points in time without quoting it. If you need the references as you are unfamilar with the accounts, I will provide that.

To understand the soverignity of God as God knows it to be, one must be willing to abandon one's personal definition. This is a similar requirement faced when discussing free will and for the same reason. Men want to avoid the weight of knowing they are free to make choices and will be judged on them and so want to blame something or someone else for their wrong choices. So either "no free will but controlled by the unknown factors or God" works to satisfy that desire.This is done by redefining "free" to elevate the standard or conditions that must be met in order for "free" or "sovereign" to be met. That is, if God is sovereign, then for them this means He controls everything. period. This is not how the men who walked with God knew him to be. To understand his sovereignity as He knows it to be requires a grown-up. Children think their parents are in total control of life as that is easy and safe. The adult knows that neither their boss nor the president nor the most powerful man on earth is in complete control of all that those under him do at any given moment. Scary but true.

Let's start with Genesis. God creates energy/matter. He gave the living forms the ability to move. No indication He was directing their movements. He made man. Man is a moral agent and so have greater freedom and choice on weightier matters. God told Adam want not to do. Do you need the reference? Adam disobeyed. But the disobedience is limited isn't it? Do you see how God limited the choices and so remains sovereign and yet gives freedom within those limits? This is his sovereignity from beginnging to end.

We see how God views the nature of man and sin from his words to Cain. Again, do you need the reference? Cain was disappointed that his offering was not accepted. God tried to encourage telling him essentially he can do better next time. Genesis 4. God also warned Cain that sin was at the door and he, Cain, needed to master it. God did not tell Cain that He, God, was making Cain make these choices but that Cain was fully responsible and God was not rescuing him from free will but advising him. This is the sovereignity of God to see and warn and care but not removed free choice, even if that choice leads to death. God limits the choices but not the ability to choose within those limits. He also has determined the consequences of our choices. "If you do XXXXXX, I will do YYYYY" is all through the Bible. This is God's sovereignity acting as the Judge of the all the Earth. No getting around it. He is sovereign and as a man soes (makes choices) so shall he reap (consequences.)

Do you need more? I can go through the entire Bible and point out God's ways and the sovereignity he shows and yet not responsible for our choices. God puts limits on what men may do. He decrees with justice and consistancy the consequences. That He does in sovereignity. But He is not micro managing choices within those limits.

Some verses that seem to speak something different:
Proversb 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
If we try to make this say that God is therefore directing every step of every man, then we find we have made God responsible for directing men to do that which He hates. That makes no sense. Men think that probably because we do not want to be responsible for their steps. But to do so, we have to ignore the weight of the Bible and the rest of God's deeds. In any case, Proverbs is only wisdom literature. That is, it is written for men to consider. These are not promises of God. They are general instruction. Second, this applys to those who are walking with God who WANT God to direct their steps. He is not directing the steps of the murderer. Surely the reason why God is not directing the steps of evil men is clear. One cannot love God and accuse Him of this sort of evil.

Isaiah 45:7I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. This is sometimes translated "create evil" but the partner to this is "peace" which is not moral good. God does not create moral evil. The Bible says God is good. Therefore this is creating calamity which is true. I mean the city of Sodom surely saw God creating "evil" for them. They had a bad day but not a morally bad day.

"I know the plans I have for you" tells us of God's thoughts regarding us and that is comforting to be sure. But what needs to be added is God plans things but we have to choose to walk in them. One can fail to fulfill the plan of God for one's life. Really scary thought but true. This is why we are told to seek the Lord not merely do nothing because God will sovereignly bring to pass what He plans. He plans but we have to choose to seek and obey. He will not do it for us. Again, really scary thought but true. (The flip side is when you have obeyed God on a weighty matter, the pleasure of God on your life, the "well done" from God is so wonderful, words cannot describe it.)

Many verses speak of the plans of God for mankind and they these will go through. These are not his plans for every man. These are unusal points in time where God intervenes in human history and sets his will through. THe plan of God will not fail. But just WHO is participating remains to be chosen by man and God. God chose Saul for a king and then changed his mind and rejected him. That man was NOT going to participate in the plan of God. Jeremiah wrote that he was called from birth. (Jeremiah 1) This is unusual. I know we today like to use part of Jeremiah to make us feel good about ourselves. But most of us do not have that kind of calling on our lives and most of us do not pay the price any man or woman called of God. If we did, we would know what that calling is and the evidence would be clear in our lives. In any case, Jeremiah could also have said "no thanks. I don't want that kind of life." God called. The word "called" is not "dragged" or "maniplated." Anyone called of God who says yes knows they volunteered. Moses was called of God. He did try to refuse and God applied greater pressure. But no where did God manipulate him. The fact that the pressure for Moses to say yes was increased shows that God does not manipulate a man on the inside. Scary but true.

Now I did not give isolated verses as so many do. I presented the whole of the incident for those few matters I discussed. As I said, I can go through case after case of God interacting with men and they will all show the limits God places on his sovereignity for the sake of love. If you dismiss this because the verses are not there in abundance in blinking lights, then I am sorry. Truth is found in all of the book as it is complex and no one verse extracted will explain it completely same as no one sentence in a biology or chemistry book will tell the reader the whole of the subject. If you wanted isolated verses, you need to find someone else. I read all of it to gain understanding. I do not take one verse and run with it like a football for the goal. My aim is to know God, not know a comfortable theology. And after 40 years, I know God. And by doing so, understand His ways and his motivations. Came with a price but was worth is.

So, this is how I walk with Him understanding His sovereignity and yet bearing the weight of making real choices in time that He is only watching or helping as He can without manipulating. If you do not like this, please refrain from casting stones. They do not hurt me but they harm your own soul. Just walk away or thank me if you disagree. Or you can offer gentle challenges if you like. Pick any verse out of the Bible you like and I will show you how it fits into this understanding. Any verse. I am afraid of none of them. I ignore noen of them. But I read the whole book, the whole chapter, not just the verses extracted to say what I like. When God says, " stand up and talk to me like a man" I see that God wants communication and is ready to explain Himself. But one needs to have courage as well as humility. Some untruth might and likely will fall off and those untruths can be very comforting for the lazy soul. Talking like a man with God is not for the cowardly. But there is no more exciting activity the human heart AND MIND can engage in. He is really wonderful.

 

[Butch5]

One group:

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's the NASB what version are you using?

Do you believe that the NASB has more authority than the Greek text? I showed from the text that Paul is referring to two groups. So, which carries more weight, the Greek text or the translation of it? I've also shown where Paul tells us that the saints are the Jews.

 

[Butch5]

The Greek is pretty clear that it's one group, and most translations show this:

CSB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.

ESV: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

NASB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

NIV: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Not so. Look at the first half of the chapter. In verses 3-12 Paul uses first person plural pronouns, Then in verse 13 he switches to second person plural pronouns. Additionally, if you look closely at what is stated in verses 3-12 you'll see that these thing speak of Israel. The passage is a Hebrew praise to God.

 

[sdowney717]

Do you believe that the NASB has more authority than the Greek text? I showed from the text that Paul is referring to two groups. So, which carries more weight, the Greek text or the translation of it? I've also shown where Paul tells us that the saints are the Jews.

Saints are both jewish Christians and gentile Christians. The letter was written not to jewish converts, but it was written to gentile believers for the most part. Paul also shows in Ephesians 2 that there is now one new man in Christ, no longer a jew or a gentile.

For reference, and notice Paul is speaking to the gentiles here.
11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, [so] making peace; 16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:17 and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.

19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Saints are both jewish Christians and gentile Christians. The letter was written not to jewish converts, but it was written to gentile believers for the most part. Paul also shows in Ephesians 2 that there is now one new man in Christ, no longer a jew or a gentile.

For reference, and notice Paul is speaking to the gentiles here.
11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, [so] making peace; 16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:17 and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.

19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Once again you just ignore everything I post and continue with your dogma. Please address what I posted from Paul use or first and second person plural pronouns.

 

[JLB777]

Has he always existed?

Like I said, God created Lucifer, the light bearer. The anointed cherub that covers.

Lucifer became Satan, the enemy.


JLB

 

[sdowney717]

Once again you just ignore everything I post and continue with your dogma. Please address what I posted from Paul use or first and second person plural pronouns.

Sorry but your so wrong again, I can only respond in a logical way that makes sense according to the scripture.