Preterists 100% wrong or Futurists 100% wrong?

[MattHenry]

Virtually all Christians today would not argue that First Coming prophecy was fulfilled throughout the period leading up to and including the Cross. Take Daniel's 69 weeks for an example of part of that period. Then, throughout most of the Christian era Christians had every reason to, and indeed did, believe that Second Coming prophecy would be fulfilled throughout the Christian era.

But later in the Christian era, and particularly in the 20th century, eschatology broke down into two camps. Partial preterists that believe that the prophesied events leading up to the day of Jesus return had virtually all been fulfilled by 70 AD (with full preterists believing that the Second Coming was as well), and the futurist camp that believes that virtually all of the events prophesied to occur prior to the day Jesus returns, are to take place during some brief (7 years or less) period yet in our future.

These two views of eschatology are divided by a gulf of over 1900 years. It would follow then that each of these camps must necessarily view the other camp as being 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology up to the day of Jesus' return.

Which camp, then, should we suppose, is 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology?

Anyone curious about a view that proffers a linear historic version can try here:
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/index.shtml
Perhaps posters can add links to other linear historic views to this thread for exploration. Let's try to limit the links to view's that demonstrate God's love, rather than to clutter the thread with skinhead and other attack type sites.

 

[ETide]

If anybody believes that Christ returned in 70AD, send me an email.. I have plenty of land for sale for ya'll..

 

[pamaris]

Well, the partial preterist may be only 50% wrong.

 

[Jipsah]

Which camp, then, should we suppose, is 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology?

The futurists. They have to spend all their time saying "No, that didn't happen" and "No, that didn't count" and "No, that wasn't what the Scripture really meant." The only thing they've gotten right is the fact that our Lord hasn't returned yet (although most futurists have a chart handy which proves from Scripture that He'll return a week from Thursday...).

 

[FreeinChrist]

Virtually all Christians today would not argue that First Coming prophecy was fulfilled throughout the period leading up to and including the Cross. Take Daniel's 69 weeks for an example of part of that period. Then, throughout most of the Christian era Christians had every reason to, and indeed did, believe that Second Coming prophecy would be fulfilled throughout the Christian era.

"throughout the Christian era"?

That sounds like a historicist view, which wasn't the view of the early church, but developed during the reformation.

But later in the Christian era, and particularly in the 20th century, eschatology broke down into two camps. Partial preterists that believe that the prophesied events leading up to the day of Jesus return had virtually all been fulfilled by 70 AD (with full preterists believing that the Second Coming was as well), and the futurist camp that believes that virtually all of the events prophesied to occur prior to the day Jesus returns, are to take place during some brief (7 years or less) period yet in our future.

Interesting view of the history of eschatology...but I think it is wrong and is VERY biased.

 

[ikester]

the preterist are 100% wrong.....the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 ad were the result of one thing....and Jesus told it so....because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.....Luke...19......

 

[Brain Damage]

I think were are all wrong to at least some degree , futurists once thought that the end was coming in 1000 AD , and when that didn't happen they thought Y2K and the year 2000 would just about do it.

And there's no need to mention preterism , we all know that Jesus has not returned and is ruling the nations with a rod of iron , and nor has the kingdom of the beast been given to the saints , or nations beating their spears into pruning hooks and not learning war anymore.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

The futurists. They have to spend all their time saying "No, that didn't happen" and "No, that didn't count" and "No, that wasn't what the Scripture really meant." The only thing they've gotten right is the fact that our Lord hasn't returned yet (although most futurists have a chart handy which proves from Scripture that He'll return a week from Thursday...).

Jipsah, In answer to the following question quote.” Which camp, then, should we suppose, is 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology?

You said. Quote. “The futurists. They have to spend all their time saying "No, that didn't happen" and "No, that didn't count" and "No, that wasn't what the Scripture really meant." The only thing they've gotten right is the fact that our Lord hasn't returned yet (although most futurists have a chart handy which proves from Scripture that He'll return a week from Thursday...)”.

Seeing as you seem to know about what ‘futurists say maybe you could please tell me what the futurists think the Lion. Bear, and leopard and fourth beast represent?
Could you tell me what the preterists say about the above?

What do you understand about the 2300 evening morning?

Could you please show me the chart that you refer to that futurists use about the Lord’s advent because I have never heard of it?
Kindest regards PC.

 

[Jipsah]

Seeing as you seem to know about what ‘futurists say maybe you could please tell me what the futurists think the Lion. Bear, and leopard and fourth beast represent?

Which futurists?

Could you tell me what the preterists say about the above?

Nope, but I'm sure you'll fill us in.

What do you understand about the 2300 evening morning?

Uh, let's see, it's the key to your chart that proves that our Lord will return a week from Thursday, right?

Could you please show me the chart that you refer to that futurists use about the Lord’s advent because I have never heard of it?

They all have their own. I'm sure yours keys largely on lions, bears, leopards, fourth beasts, and 2300.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Which futurists?

Nope, but I'm sure you'll fill us in.

Uh, let's see, it's the key to your chart that proves that our Lord will return a week from Thursday, right?

They all have their own. I'm sure yours keys largely on lions, bears, leopards, fourth beasts, and 2300.

Quote
Originally Posted by: Jipsah




The futurists. They have to spend all their time saying "No, that didn't happen" and "No, that didn't count" and "No, that wasn't what the Scripture really meant." The only thing they've gotten right is the fact that our Lord hasn't returned yet (although most futurists have a chart handy which proves from Scripture that He'll return a week from Thursday...).



My question was. Quote.
“Seeing as you seem to know about what ‘futurists’ say maybe you could please tell me what the futurists think the Lion. Bear, and leopard and fourth beast represent? Unquote.
Jipsah, reply was quote “Which futurists?” unquote
So from your answer Jipsah, I now understand clearly that you haven’t a clue as to whom or what you are talking about when you use the words ‘the futurists?’ Or even the question put to you.

My next question was quote. “Could you tell me what the preterists say about the above,’ that is the lion, bear, leopard and fourth beast?” unqute.

{Your reply was. Quote “Nope, but I'm sure you'll fill us in.” unquote}

You seem to be ‘SURE’ about a lot of things yet you do not reason out a question before jumping in with an ill-considered answer that has nothing whatsoever to do with the question. I am asking you for an answer regarding preterists not futurists!
At least consider the question and if you don’t know the answer, which you do not, just say so.
My next question was quote. “What do YOU understand about the 2300 evening morning? Unquote.

{Your reply was quote. “Uh, let's see, it's the key to your chart that proves that our Lord will return a week from Thursday, right?” Unquote.}

Bad guess! Jipsah, I am talking about the beasts in the Bible, not from your imaginary chart!
You don’t seem to understand much at all if anything about Daniel 7: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. from your poor response to questions asked of you.

Jipsah quote, {“They all have their own. I'm sure yours keys largely on lions, bears, leopards, fourth beasts, and 2300.”} unquote.

Wrong again Jipsah, the term 2300 ereb boqer is mentioned in Daniel 8: 14, and if you read it, you would understand it is to do with the sanctuary being cleansed see verse 14 at the 'time of the end' see verse 17.

Still I could use one of your type of remarks and say, I’m sure you have your own little chart Jipsah, telling you what man teacher you should listen to, but it certainly is not of the Bible, that I am dead sure of.

Think before you make such remarks about people you know nothing about Jipsah.

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Virtually all Christians today would not argue that First Coming prophecy was fulfilled throughout the period leading up to and including the Cross. Take Daniel's 69 weeks for an example of part of that period. Then, throughout most of the Christian era Christians had every reason to, and indeed did, believe that Second Coming prophecy would be fulfilled throughout the Christian era.

But later in the Christian era, and particularly in the 20th century, eschatology broke down into two camps. Partial preterists that believe that the prophesied events leading up to the day of Jesus return had virtually all been fulfilled by 70 AD (with full preterists believing that the Second Coming was as well), and the futurist camp that believes that virtually all of the events prophesied to occur prior to the day Jesus returns, are to take place during some brief (7 years or less) period yet in our future.

These two views of eschatology are divided by a gulf of over 1900 years. It would follow then that each of these camps must necessarily view the other camp as being 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology up to the day of Jesus' return.

Which camp, then, should we suppose, is 100% wrong in regard to their eschatology?

Anyone curious about a view that proffers a linear historic version can try here:
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/index.shtml
Perhaps posters can add links to other linear historic views to this thread for exploration. Let's try to limit the links to view's that demonstrate God's love, rather than to clutter the thread with skinhead and other attack type sites.

Hi Forum,

I believe the answer to this question hinge on the credibility of Jesus since preterist base their belief upon the scriptures that Jesus told his disciples he was coming during their lifetime (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27,28; 24:29-34).

In Luke 21:20-28, Jesus told the disciples when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, and let them that be in judea flee to the mountains, those be "the day of vengeance, when they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power great glory and redemption.

Jesus credibility is at stake, did he speak the truth or not?

Did the desolation occur yet? Did armies compass Jerusalem yet? Did the days of vengeance occur yet?

Well if those things occurred I believe Jesus kept his promise to come, thus his credibilty is in tact.


However if one can prove Jesus did not come at that time as he promised his disciples, Jesus clearly lose his credibility and is deemed a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:22.


I don't believe Jesus is a false prophet, therefore believe Preterism is right.

Lady Goodnews,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Quote
Originally Posted by: Jipsah

The futurists. They have to spend all their time saying "No, that didn't happen" and "No, that didn't count" and "No, that wasn't what the Scripture really meant." The only thing they've gotten right is the fact that our Lord hasn't returned yet (although most futurists have a chart handy which proves from Scripture that He'll return a week from Thursday...).

Have you ever seen how much the atheists and Jews also bring up the same thing.

I am translating Daniel 11 and Revelation and will have a better idea on whether Everything is fulfilled or None of it is. Hard to see how it can be "in between". Peace.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within/without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And there's no need to mention preterism , we all know that Jesus has not returned and isruling the nations with a rod of iron , and nor has the kingdom of the beast been given to the saints , or nations beating their spears into pruning hooks and not learning war anymore.

So what are the Saints in Christ doing to sow Peace and have others beat their "swords" into plowshares? Why is everyone looking ahead to worldwide annihilation intsead of fomenting peace today? Why did Jesus always use the examples of the Priests/Rulers of Jerusalem to teach us things we are not to do.

Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "...... John 10:8 all, as many as came before me, are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them;

zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite/merchant in the House of the LORD of hosts.

The seeds of the next war are always sown in the last war. Only peace can make peace. Only the ministry of the Sons of Peace can bring peace to earth.

 

[inhisdebt]

I believe my position happens to fall directly between these two positions, is there a specific point in partial preterism or futurist that divide the two. I know that many (but not all) futurest see the events of rev 4v1 as incomplete to date yet were do the partial preterist belive we are, i dont need a full rundown of there positions, im simply curiose as to what the mass of partial preterist believe

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Hi Forum,

I believe the answer to this question hinge on the credibility of Jesus since preterist base their belief upon the scriptures that Jesus told his disciples he was coming during their lifetime (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27,28; 24:29-34).

In Luke 21:20-28, Jesus told the disciples when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, and let them that be in judea flee to the mountains, those be "the day of vengeance, when they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power great glory and redemption.

Jesus credibility is at stake, did he speak the truth or not?

Did the desolation occur yet? Did armies compass Jerusalem yet? Did the days of vengeance occur yet?

Well if those things occurred I believe Jesus kept his promise to come, thus his credibilty is in tact.


However if one can prove Jesus did not come at that time as he promised his disciples, Jesus clearly lose his credibility and is deemed a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:22.


I don't believe Jesus is a false prophet, therefore believe Preterism is right.

Lady Goodnews,

Jesus, did not know at what time He would return. Therefore could not state that time to anyone.

Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

 

[inhisdebt]

Hi Forum,

I believe the answer to this question hinge on the credibility of Jesus since preterist base their belief upon the scriptures that Jesus told his disciples he was coming during their lifetime (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27,28; 24:29-34).

In Luke 21:20-28, Jesus told the disciples when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, and let them that be in judea flee to the mountains, those be "the day of vengeance, when they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power great glory and redemption.

Jesus credibility is at stake, did he speak the truth or not?

Did the desolation occur yet? Did armies compass Jerusalem yet? Did the days of vengeance occur yet?

Well if those things occurred I believe Jesus kept his promise to come, thus his credibilty is in tact.


However if one can prove Jesus did not come at that time as he promised his disciples, Jesus clearly lose his credibility and is deemed a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:22.


I don't believe Jesus is a false prophet, therefore believe Preterism is right.

Lady Goodnews,

Lets take a closer look at these

Mathew 10v23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

One could interprite this that isreal has not fully been witnessed to at his return,It doesnt have to mean a 70 AD return

Mathew16 v 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom

This one was fullfilled by John at the isle of patmos yet it still does not mean that christ had to return to be fullfilled

Mathew 24v29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Your key verse here is 34 yet the context of events changed at v 32 to that of the parable of the fig tree.
Note that two Questions were asked of jesus in his statements here
Luke 21v1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
the first question in v3 was in relation to the statement he gave in v 2 and accomplished in 70AD but the 2 question in v 3 was answered in v 29-31 and is yet to happen. Jesus gave two answers to two questions in one statement combining them together is a mistake.

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Jesus, did not know at what time He would return. Therefore could not state that time to anyone.

Jesus did know the time, and stated it to the disciples!

Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

True, But of that day and hour no one knows...

NOT of that time!

Jesus clearly stated to the disciple the time of his coming shall BE "the days of vengeance," (Luke 21:20-28).

Didn't Jesus state that to the disciples?

Yes or No?

Thanks,


Lady Goodnews,

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Lets take a closer look at these

Mathew 10v23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

One could interprite this that isreal has not fully been witnessed to at his return,It doesnt have to mean a 70 AD return

Mathew16 v 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom

This one was fullfilled by John at the isle of patmos yet it still does not mean that christ had to return to be fullfilled

Mathew 24v29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Your key verse here is 34 yet the context of events changed at v 32 to that of the parable of the fig tree.
Note that two Questions were asked of jesus in his statements here
Luke 21v1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
the first question in v3 was in relation to the statement he gave in v 2 and accomplished in 70AD but the 2 question in v 3 was answered in v 29-31 and is yet to happen. Jesus gave two answers to two questions in one statement combining them together is a mistake.

Dear in hisdebt,

To the contrary, separating them is a mistake the disciples clearly knew these events were connected.

Are you saying the coming of the Lord immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), is NOT the coming of the Lord?

Yes or No?

P.S. The parable of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34) was connected to all these things, right

Thanks,

Lady Goodnews,

 

[inhisdebt]

Jesus did know the time, and stated it to the disciples!



True, But of that day and hour no one knows...

NOT of that time!

Jesus clearly stated to the disciple the time of his coming shall BE "the days of vengeance," (Luke 21:20-28).

Didn't Jesus state that to the disciples?

Yes or No?

Thanks,


Lady Goodnews,

NO
Luke 21v22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
No!!! a look at the parallel passages in Mathew 24, and Mark 13 shows that these events in v 25 take place after the tribulation refered to here as the times of the Gentiles/or the days of vengance.

 

[inhisdebt]

Dear in hisdebt,

To the contrary, separating them is a mistake the disciples clearly knew these events were connected.

Are you saying the coming of the Lord immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), is NOT the coming of the Lord?

Yes or No?

P.S. The parable of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34) was connected to all these things, right

Thanks,

Lady Goodnews,

The coming of the lord is immediatly after the tribulation. your assumption is that the tribulation is over, it is not. There have been 50 million christians martered since the death of christ. The events of 70 ad brought an end to the jewish temple and danials 70th week but it was only the beggining of abominations they are not yet finished. poor interpritation of danial 9 has lead many to believe That danials 70th week is the same as the tribulation but it is not, Jesus answered both questions at once because they are connected by the tribulation, but from an earthly human perpective they are many years appart. the parable of the fig tree was given to let them know the when of the events he was describing , it shows that there was a long winter through wich the jews would pass and then when spring was noticable there was one more Generation to follow after that. the long winter for the jews would have been from 70 ad to the holicaust of ww2 that brought about the rebirth of the nation of isreal thus the spring begins. and one more generation follows many debate the length of a biblical generation, the scriptures leave that open but in any case in Genesis God limets our lifetime to 120 years.