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Preterists 100% wrong or Futurists 100% wrong?

L

Lady Goodnews

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inhisdebt said:
NO
Luke 21v22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
No!!! a look at the parallel passages in Mathew 24, and Mark 13 shows that these events in v 25 take place after the tribulation refered to here as the times of the Gentiles/or the days of vengance.

Inhis debt,

I looked at the parallel accounts in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17!

No matter how you parallel it, Jesus said he was coming back "the days of vengeance" (Luke 21:20-28), did he not?

Yes or No?

Thanks,

Lady Goodnews,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Lady Goodnews said:
Inhis debt,
I looked at the parallel accounts in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17!
No matter how you parallel it, Jesus said he was coming back "the days of vengeance" (Luke 21:20-28), did he not?
Yes or No?
Thanks,
Lady Goodnews,
Hi LG. The problem appears to be who God's Wrath is coming upon in the first place. I have heard people say that Paul's DOTL prophecies are different than the Olivet Discourse!

In my humble view, the Wraths appear to only be coming on unbelieving Jews in Judea/Israel, not non-Jew Israelites/Gentiles.

Daniel's people were Jews, and Daniel 12 specifically states it is ONLY Daniel's people that are involved. I wish I knew how better to explain to others the ramifications of this, as revelation does not involve the Whole World Globe.
Ezekiel 7:2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.
Matthew 10:23 `And whenever they may persecute ye in the this city, be ye fleeing into the other, for verily I am saying to ye, ye no not be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever be coming the Son of Man.

Luke 21:22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.

This passage can only mean that those of Israel who have accepted the Lord Jesus as King and Savior are "Saved", while those Jews who fail to accept Jesus's NC message of Life are "punished". Thoughts?
Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah.
 
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L

Lady Goodnews

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi LG. The problem appears to be who God's Wrath is coming upon in the first place. I have heard people say that Paul's DOTL prophecies are different than the Olivet Discourse!
The Wraths are only coming on unbeliving Jews, not non-Jew Gentiles. Daniel's people were Jews and Daniel 12 specifically states it is ONLY Daniel's people that are involved. I wish I knew how better to explain to others the ramifications of this, as revelation does not involve the Whole World Globe. Matthew 10:23 `And whenever they may persecute ye in the this city, be ye fleeing into the other, for verily I am saying to ye, ye no not be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever be coming the Son of Man.

Luke 21:22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. [SIZE=+2]

[/SIZE]Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Hi LittleLambofJesus,

Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!

How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.

What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.


That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.

I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.


Blessings,

Lady Goodnews,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.

I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.
I don't really like labels, but I do enjoy studying the Scriptures and rarely venture outside of it.
Here is a very profound passage by Jesus which most christians tend to "avoid". Thoughts?

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses [#2723] you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" kathgorwn <2723> (5723) {ACCUSES}
Reve 14:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser [#2723] of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. {THE} kathgoroV <2725> {ACCUSER}

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the [OC/Law] Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.
 
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L

Lady Goodnews

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LittleLambofJesus said:
I don't really like labels, but I do enjoy studying the Scriptures and rarely venture outside of it.

I don't like labels either, I was just responding to the question.


Here is a very profound passage by Jesus which most christians tend to "avoid". Thoughts?

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses [#2723] you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" kathgorwn <2723> (5723) {ACCUSES}
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the [OC/Law] Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.

Please clarify what you want my thoughts about, whether it is a parable, a literal hell or what?

Lady Goodnews,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Lady Goodnews said:
I don't like labels either, I was just responding to the question.
Please clarify what you want my thoughts about, whether it is a parable, a "literal" hell or what?

Elect Lady,
This is the problem I see in much of christianity today, so I recommend to them to study the parables of Jesus more deeply. Blessings.
LUKE 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented

Matt 22:12 "So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

zeph 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. 9 In the same day I will punish All those who leap over the threshold, Who fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Here is a very profound passage by Jesus which most christians tend to "avoid". Thoughts?
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses [#2723] you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" kathgorwn <2723> (5723) {ACCUSES}
Reve 14:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser [#2723] of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. {THE} kathgoroV <2725> {ACCUSER}

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the [OC/Law] Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.
 
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Prophecy Countdown

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Jesus, was referring to the second advent where He will return with great power and Glory on the day of the Lord.
Mark 13: 32. &#8220;But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

Jesus, did not know at what time He would return on that great day of the Lord.
Therefore could not state that specific time to anyone.&#8221;
There was a promise to visit His Disciples, before they could start their work throughout the cities of Israel.
Matthew 10: 23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Jesus, fulfilled the above last verse when He appeared before the Disciples, recorded in John 20:
John 20: 18 &#8211; 31. 19. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus said. Luke 21:6. As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there SHALL NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.
We still have the STONES PILED &#8216;ONE UPON ANOTHER called the &#8216;wailing wall.&#8217; Yes stones were cast down but not all of them as Jesus, stated very clearly
&#8220; NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.&#8221;
70AD does not demonstrate that ALL the stones were thrown down, specified by the Lord in person.

Were all things written fulfilled in 70AD? No not at all.

In Luke 21 Jesus, is referring to the&#8217; time of the end,&#8217; when it is read in full and not His visitation in the upper room.
Luke 21: 20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22. For these be the days of vengeance, THAT ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may be FULFILLED.
So, what was to be fulfilled?
Luke 21: 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES BE FULFILLED.
The Jews were lead away by Babylon, and also by the Romans. I think under Hadrian.
However for the prophecy to be fulfilled it must contain the following events, which simply did not occur back then.
25. And there shall be SIGNS IN THE SUN, and IN THE MOON, and IN THE STARS; and upon the EARTH DISTRES OF NATIONS, with perplexity; the sea and the WAVES ROARING;

26. Men&#8217;s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for THE POWERS OF HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN.

27. And then shall they SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION IS NIGH.
Last trump 1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and WITH THE TRUMP of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE FIRST:
17. THEN WE which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Gentiles will trample on Jerusalem, for ONLY 42 months about the time of the seven trumpets period which is at the &#8216;time of the end,&#8217; the very last trumpet is blown to resurrect the witnesses.

Rev 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.
That is a lot less than Rome, trampled upon Jerusalem, so it is not referring to the period of the Roman empire. Also the two witnesses were nowhere to be seen during the Roman long occupation of Israel.
Rev 11: 3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED and THREESCORE DAYS, clothed in sackcloth.

7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12. And they heard A GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15. And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



To understand the time spans of these events we should include Daniel, but this post is too long as it is, so I will leave it here for now.
PC
 
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inhisdebt

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Lady Goodnews said:
Hi LittleLambofJesus,

Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!

How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.

What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.


That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.

I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.


Blessings,

Lady Goodnews,
Its rather simple really, that is not what he said, he said that the days of vengance would take place until the times of the gentils was complete, That the Jews would be hauled off into all nations, And that the Jerusalam would be trodden down by the gentils until the times of the gentils was complete.Yes the jews were hauled off into all nations, however Jerusalam is still full of gentils. And both Mathew and Mark show the events of the heavens (v 25-26) will take place after the tribulation.
Yes v 22 -23 reflect the events of 70 AD, but v 24 is not yet complete
Luke 21v22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

I challenge you to prove that has been completed. Or even started.

Mathew 24v14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come

Can you prove that this took place!!!

2 thess 2v3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Can you prove that this took place!!! The multitude of scripture shows that christs return will be in defense of the Jews, not for there destruction as was the case in 70 AD.

Joel 2v13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion

Can you show that this happened!!!
The overwehlming evidence for wich this is just a part of shows that your interpritation of the scripture is inacurate at best and historically and scripturally unsupportable.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Its rather simple really, that is not what he said, he said that the days of vengance would take place until the times of the gentils was complete, That the Jews would be hauled off into all nations, And that the Jerusalam would be trodden down by the gentils until the times of the gentils was complete.Yes the jews were hauled off into all nations, however Jerusalam is still full of gentils.
:confused:
The only way back to the "land" for anyone calling themselves a Jew is the CROSS. Sad but true.

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

LUKE 16:26 "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'"

Deut 28:67 "In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. 68 "And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy [you."]
 
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Brain Damage

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Lady Goodnews said:
Hi LittleLambofJesus,

Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!

How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.

What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.


That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.

I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.


Blessings,

Lady Goodnews,

From luke 21:20 to 24 you are correct , 24 tells us of the diaspora . 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

Its the next part that you don't understand .

Luke 21:24-And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

From there on we are looking at future prophecy for the time of the gentiles have not yet been fulfilled , Jerusalem is still under gentile dominance , that's why the capital of Israel is Tel-aviv and not Jerusalem.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Brain Damage said:
From luke 21:20 to 24 you are correct , 24 tells us of the diaspora . 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

Its the next part that you don't understand .

Luke 21:24-And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

From there on we are looking at future prophecy for the time of the gentiles have not yet been fulfilled , Jerusalem is still under gentile dominance , that's why the capital of Israel is Tel-aviv and not Jerusalem.
2000yrs for it to be "trampled"???

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one within/without[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Matthew 8:12 "But the sons [#5207] of the kingdom [#932] shall be being "cast out" [#1544] into outer [#1857] darkness.
 
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Lady Goodnews

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Prophecy Countdown said:
Jesus, was referring to the second advent where He will return with great power and Glory on the day of the Lord.
Mark 13: 32. &#8220;But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

Jesus, did not know at what time He would return on that great day of the Lord.
Therefore could not state that specific time to anyone.&#8221;

Jesus KNEW he was coming "the days of vengeance" because he told the disciples (Luke 21:20-28).


There was a promise to visit His Disciples, before they could start their work throughout the cities of Israel.

That is incorrect!

Matthew 10: 23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

That's right, till the Son of man be come (Matthew 16:27,28; 24:27,30,48; 25:13; 26:64; Mark 13:26; Luke 18:8; 21:27).


Jesus, fulfilled the above last verse when He appeared before the Disciples, recorded in John 20:

John 20: 18 &#8211; 31. 19. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

That is incorrect, Jesus fulfilled the promise made to the disciples in Matthew 10:23, when he came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory as he promised his disciples (Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:30).

Jesus said. Luke 21:6. As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there SHALL NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.
We still have the STONES PILED &#8216;ONE UPON ANOTHER called the &#8216;wailing wall.&#8217; Yes stones were cast down but not all of them as Jesus, stated very clearly
&#8220; NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.&#8221;
70AD does not demonstrate that ALL the stones were thrown down, specified by the Lord in person.

Were all things written fulfilled in 70AD? No not at all.

Was Jesus mistaken in (Luke 21:20-22)?

In Luke 21 Jesus, is referring to the&#8217; time of the end,&#8217; when it is read in full and not His visitation in the upper room.

I agree!

Luke 21: 20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22. For these be the days of vengeance, THAT ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may be FULFILLED.
So, what was to be fulfilled?
Luke 21: 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES BE FULFILLED.

The Jews were lead away by Babylon, and also by the Romans. I think under Hadrian.
However for the prophecy to be fulfilled it must contain the following events, which simply did not occur back then.

I don't know who lead the Jews where, but I know that was the time Jerusalem was trodden down of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24) and the court outside the temple given to the Gentiles "trodden" under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS/ 1260 DAYS (Revelation 11:2,3).


25. And there shall be SIGNS IN THE SUN, and IN THE MOON, and IN THE STARS; and upon the EARTH DISTRES OF NATIONS, with perplexity; the sea and the WAVES ROARING;

26. Men&#8217;s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for THE POWERS OF HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN.

27. And then shall they SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION IS NIGH.

That alone prove Jesus KNEW the time he was coming back (not the day and hour), but clearly events connected with his coming and the time being "the days of vengeance." (Luke 21:20-28).

Thus, if "the days of vengeance" happened already so have all the events he mentioned (Luke 21:20-28), right?:)


Last trump 1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and WITH THE TRUMP of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE FIRST:
17. THEN WE which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Gentiles will trample on Jerusalem, for ONLY 42 months about the time of the seven trumpets period which is at the &#8216;time of the end,&#8217; the very last trumpet is blown to resurrect the witnesses.

Rev 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.

Thus, Jerusalem being "trodden" down by the Gentiles (Luke 21:24) is the FORTY TWO MONTH given unto the Gentiles to "tread" under feet the holy city (Revelation 11:2, right?

The destruction of both the temple and the court without the temple, is proof those things were fulfilled "the days of vengeance."


That is a lot less than Rome, trampled upon Jerusalem, so it is not referring to the period of the Roman empire. Also the two witnesses were nowhere to be seen during the Roman long occupation of Israel.

It is referring to the FORTY TWO MONTHS prior the death of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:2).

Rev 11: 3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED and THREESCORE DAYS, clothed in sackcloth.

The FORTY TWO MONTHS the Gentiles trodded down Jerusalem.

7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12. And they heard A GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15. And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Thus, the mystery of God (Ephesians 3:3-9), and times of the Gentiles fulfilled.


To understand the time spans of these events we should include Daniel, but this post is too long as it is, so I will leave it here for now.
PC

Granted, knowing Daniel might be helpful, but it is not necessary to understand the time span of all the events Jesus stated would precede his coming (Luke 21:20-28).


Thanks,

Lady Goodnews,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ikester said:
so how many disciples were alive in 70 ad.....

how does Daniel ch...11&12 relate in any way to events in 70ad....

Jesus said the very reason for the temple and Jerusalem destruction was...that they missed it.....nothing to do with his return......
Umm, because the book of Daniel concerns the Jewish Nation perhaps?

So I guess the Jews missed both His first coming and second coming. Any reason why they are still awaiting on His first coming and we aren't :eek:
John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.'
Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will Judge you according to your ways, And I will Repay you for all your abominations.

Reve 11:18 and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be Judged, and to give the Reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'
 
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PETE_

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Lady Goodnews said:
Hi LittleLambofJesus,

Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!

How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.

What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.


That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.

I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.


Blessings,

Lady Goodnews,
How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.

This is the part ikster was asking about. If you use this to say that the disciples would see His return, it fails because many were not still alive by 70 AD
 
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DeaconDean

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Lady Goodnews said:
In Luke 21:20-28, Jesus told the disciples when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, and let them that be in judea flee to the mountains, those be "the day of vengeance, when they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power great glory and redemption.


Did the desolation occur yet? Did armies compass Jerusalem yet? Did the days of vengeance occur yet?

I don't believe Jesus is a false prophet, therefore believe Preterism is right.

Lady Goodnews,

Lady Goodnews, have you ever read Josephus' "The War of the Jews?"

Apparently you haven't, for if you would have, you would have found out that the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel, Matthew, and Mark, could not have been Titus. Titus was never recorded in history as a "desolator." And, as Matthew, Mark, and Daniel record, Titus never entered into the holy-of-holies. Only three people in recorded history ever did this. Antiochus Epiphanes, Gen. Pompey, and Pontius Pilate. Now it is true that Antiochus and Pilate both desecrated the temple, but they did not make a desolation of it. And if you would read Josephus' writings, you would also find out that the Temple was destroyed without his orders or approval. And the tower that sat beside the temple which was originally built by Zerrubabel, called Fort Antonia, was part of the temple complex. How come all of Jerusalem was not destroyed in AD 70? Fort Antonia stood for another 3 years after the temple was destroyed and until the fall of Masada in AD 73. The Roman army used Fort Antonia as a base of operations in which to bring troops and supplies from to attack Masada. So the whole of Jerusalem was not destroyed in AD 70 as preterists argue.

Did not Jesus tell His disciples:

"Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." -Mark 13:2

The temple had several buildings, Fort Antonia being one of them. How come it (Fort Antonia) being one of the temple buildings, wasn't destroyed in AD 70?

And if you prefer Luke 21:5-6:

"And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

As stated before Fort Antonia was part of the temple. How come it wasn't destroyed along with the temple in AD 70?

And I've read the gospels but it must have escaped me, please show me where Jesus appeared to the disciples in the clouds with great power and glory.

And if He did, then by His own words, the elect would be taken by His angels.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -Matt. 24:30-31

Further, what is the one HOLY place that the Jews do not have control of and is still in the hands of the Gentiles?

Mt. Moriah! Ever heard of the Dome of the Rock? The Gentiles are still "trodden down" this part of Jerusalem. Fact is, the Jews still do not control Jerusalem. The Muslems control the Dome of the Rock, which sits right smack dab in the middle of Jerusalem (figure of speech). And who are Gentiles? Anyone who is not a Jew. What are the Muslems? Gentiles. Granted they desend from Abraham also, but I dare you to go and tell the Jews in Israel right now that the muslem's are their brethren. See what happens. Furthermore, Esuebius records in his work Ecclesastical History, that the few Christians that were in Jerusalem, fleed when Cestus Gallus relieved his seige of Jerusalem in AD 65, five full years before the temple was destroyed. John Gill mentions this fact in his commentary on Matthew 24:16. The Christians fleed to Petra! Jerusalem had been under seige long befrore Titus came on the scene. Titus picked up where his father and Cestus Gallus left off. His father left the army in AD 65 to return to Rome leaving his son, Titus, in charge of the Roman army.

Sorry dear, but preterism is all wrong. Jerusalem was not entirely destroyed in AD 70 as preterists thought. It wasn't entirely destroyed until AD 73, three years after the temple was destroyed.
 
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Prophecy Countdown

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Goodnews quote. &#8220;Jesus KNEW he was coming "the days of vengeance" because he told the disciples (Luke 21:20-28).&#8221; Unquote.

But Jesus, did not know or tell them the year, month, day or Hour
Mark 13: 32. &#8220;But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

There was a promise to visit His Disciples, before they could start their work throughout the cities of Israel.

You said quote. &#8220;That is incorrect!&#8221;

Here is the promise of Him doing so.
Matt 10: 23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN COME.

John 16: 15. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
Jesus repeated it again in verse 19.
Verse 19. Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? 20. Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
The fulfillment of those words are there in. John 20: 18 &#8211; 31 and Luke 24: 29 &#8211; 39. Please read them.
When Jesus, rose from death many Saints, were raised Matt 27: 52 because He, is the Resurrection.
After Jesus, spent a short time with the Disciples after some 40 days in all he was lifted up Acts 1; 11.
Jesus, spoke to Paul and returned again to speak to John, many years later in Patmos prison, and told John, he would have to prophesy again and to write it all down. This was many years after the Disciples, were long dead.
The second advent is yet to be fulfilled, a filling fully in every detail that is how we can distinguish the false from the truth.

Kindest regards. PC
 
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Quote. &#8220;How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.&#8221;

I don&#8217;t think anyone denies the certainty of Luke 21: 20 &#8211; 28 at all.
Their argument is with your timing of it according to your own interpretation of it occurring far too soon by simply using the &#8216;destruction of Jerusalem. There is not enough prophetic detail from the preterist viewpoint that makes it plausible on reflection.

Quote. &#8220;What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.&#8221; unquote.

Also Luke 21: 20 &#8211; 28, is not in contention here. Some just disagree with you, when you say &#8216;He did it&#8217; when folk know He, has not done it.

Kindest regards, PC.
 
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Lady Goodnews

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ikester said:
so how many disciples were alive in 70 ad.....


I don't know, but obviously Jesus knew some would be alive, otherwise why tell them when "they see" Judea compassed with armies to flee?


how does Daniel ch...11&12 relate in any way to events in 70ad....

It was "the time of the end," (Matthew 24:1-3; Peter 4:7; 1 Corinthians 10:11).

Jesus said the very reason for the temple and Jerusalem destruction was...that they missed it.....nothing to do with his return......

The reason is irrelevant, however it cannot be denied Jesus himself connected the desolation of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple with the time of his return proven by (Luke 21:20-27; Matthew 24:1-3; 29-30), did he not?

Lady Goodnews,
 
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Pandersen said:

Hi Pandersen,

This is the part ikster was asking about.


I just answered ikster post.


If you use this to say that the disciples would see His return, it fails because many were not still alive by 70 AD

Please tell me why Jesus told the disciples...when YE [the disciples] shall SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains (Luke 21:20-21), if some would not be alive, and some in Judea?


Thanks,

Lady Goodnews,
 
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