Preterists 100% wrong or Futurists 100% wrong?

[Lady Goodnews]

Capitals used for emphasis only.

Jesus, did not know or tell the Disciples, the year, month, day or Hour of ‘the great and terrible Day of the Lord.’
Where is the biblical evidence for Him doing so.

The biblical evidence is clearly found in Luke 21:20-27, then compare that with Luke 4:18, where Jesus quoted the prophet...

Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the cptives, and the opening of theprison to them that are;

2 To proclaim the acceptable YEAR of the Lord, and "the day of vengeance" of our God; to comfort all that mourn.

If unconvinced read the prophet Isaiah, he will clearly tell you the YEAR of "recompense and the redeemed" is the day of vengeance (Isaiah 34:8; 63:4; and Luke 21:20-22).

The preterist view, in this case is based on one event, yes ONE.
Jerusalem, being surrounded by a Roman army.

You mean that one event of the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem that Jesus warned the disciples about...

Luke 21:20 And when YOU see Jerusalem "compassed with armies," then KNOW that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Wonder why Jesus pointed out that event if it was as insignificant as you make it?

Yet there is no evidence at all, of the other promised signs and wonders and wonderful promises of the resurrection, of salvation from the mortal to the immortal occurring and no sign of the wedding supper in Rev 19,

They occured in the heavenly realm!

and what of the return of God’s people, to fight the Armageddon battle?

That occurred "the day of vengeance/ day of the Lord" when armies compassed Jerusalem (Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:27-31; Revelation 16:12-16).

DEATH where is thy sting and as for the grave, where is your victory?
I don’t see the grave or death swallowed up!

Jesus swallowed up death in victory when he was resurrected from the grave, it was a prophecy of...

Isaiah 25:8 HE will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth; for the Lord hath spoken.

If these other events are not there then the 70AD idea falls apart.

The armies compassing Jerusalem and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, 70AD, events cannot be denied and is proof the Lord kept his promise to come "the days of vengeance" (Luke 21:20-28).

How on Earth, did preterists get to such a state.
The answer is called the ‘proof text study method.’
Using the concordance with the word (Sabbath) we can get a fairly good idea about that day.

I can't answer for Preterist, but I rely upon the Scriptures.

However use the word (vengeance) in a cross-referencing system and try bringing them together and this same method just doesn’t work in the same way.
Unless we read, leading and following verses in careful detail and find out the application of that word within the Bible’s intent, we could be in real trouble.

I venture to say some would disgree, myself included

How many here love the Lord?

I would say very many indeed!

We agree on that!

Amen to that.

Amen

So I must ask, are the wicked in no fear, because vengeance has been fulfilled in 70AD

I hope that's not the case.

and are we wasting our time entreating our Lord, for His mercy because the resurrection of life has supposedly occurred in 70AD?

No, it is still appointed unto men once to die, then be judged (Hebrews 9:27).

If all this happened in 70AD, then dear Brothers and Sisters, we are IN REAL TROUBLE because we would be the ones left behind!

Thus, we are BLESSED according to...

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, BLESSED are the dead which die in the Lord "from" Henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

But the question is how long are the ‘remnant’ doomed left behind?

The remnant was not left behind, they were saved (Romans 9:27; 11:5; Revelation 11:13).

Well Daniel is told by Gabriel the length of time and it is really short plus he actually tells us about the length of time of the desolation and what time it will occur and his clear statements are not in harmony with 70AD.

Goodnews quote.
“Granted, knowing Daniel might be helpful, but it is not necessary to understand the time span of all the events Jesus stated would precede his coming (Luke 21:20-28).”

It was Jesus, that said read Daniel, right in the eschatological events spoken of in Matt 24: 15.
Daniel, is a great source of information that is vital in understanding the second advent and where it is scheduled to occur,

True, Daniel is a great source of information as is Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Matthew, 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Peter, and Revelation, but if one know what Jesus told the disciples in (Luke 21:20-28), he will know precisely when the Lord said he was coming back.

It is the angel Gabriel through Daniel that proves preterists 70AD idea totally incorrect.

I am relying upon the Lord Jesus (Luke 21:20-28), and I am sure the angel Gabriel through Daniel will not contradict the Lord.

In Daniel, 7: 4 – 7. four notable beasts rise up, however after the 4th beast is killed at trump seven when Jesus, returns, to Earth, with the Saints Rev 19: 9 – 21 the three notable powers, ie the lion, bear, and leopard, are left behind for a season and time before they face the sword at the Armageddon battle.
Dan 7: 11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12AS CONCERNING THE REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away: yet THEIR LIVES WERE PROLONGED for a season and time.

These last earthly beast powers are not the Roman empire they are three notable powers which are around today if we look they can be identified.
They are around when God sets up His Kingdom.

That's right, Jesus destroyed them at his first coming (Daniel 2:44,45; Luke 1;32,33; Matthew 21:43).

I really do have a problem even considering 70AD!
The lion with eagles wings is lion GB eagle USA. Bear Russia, check it out.

Regardless to who they were, their kingdom was broken in pieces and consumed, by "the Stone" (Jesus) cut out of the mountain without hands at his first coming (Daniel 2:44,45; Luke 1:32,33; Matthew 21:43).

Same story in Revelation.
Rev 19: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, AND A KINGDOM, THAT ALL PEOLPE, NATIONS, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an EVERLASTING dominion, which shall not pass away, and his KINGDOM that which shall not be destroyed.

Not quite, that occurred at the acsension, when Jesus ascended back to heaven at his first coming (Acts 1:9-11; Daniel 7:13-14).

The promised blessing.
Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Rev 19: 9. And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And THE ARMIES which were IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and WRATH of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I SAW THE BEAST, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH, and THEIR ARMIES, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The above last verse speaks of world armies not just one army of Rome.

Rev 19: 20. And the BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The prominent nation the remnant LION, BEAR, LEOPARD, nations are put to the sword.
Rev 19: 21. And the REMNANT were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That is the real story a true and startlingly different story from that of any preterist

Or, the scriptures!

Yes I did rush through it but it would be far too long if I did this in too much minute detail and I have only barely touched on Daniel.

By the imposed restricted time spans placed on the very few events thus far explained, by me they clearly tell me that 70AD is not in the script!

Hopefully every one will determine for themselves if the armies Jesus spoke about compassing Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-28) have any relevance to 70AD.

You see, in Daniel 7: 11,12. In verse 13 Jesus, is brought before the Ancient of Days where He is given His dominion, and glory, and a KINGDOM, that ALL PEOPLE, NATIONS, and languages, should serve him: in verse 14.

Yes, when Jesus ascended back to heaven (Acts 1:9-11) and was brought before the Ancient of days.

That is just one or two reasons why Jesus, refers to the abomination of desolation in Daniel, in Matt 24: 15.

Jesus gave the reason... When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...Then let them which be in Judea FLEE into the mountains..Let them on the housetop not come down...Return not back to the fields...Woe to them with child...These be the days of great tribulation (Matthew 24:15-21).

and because there is a time limit set for ‘the time period of the vision concerning the place of the daily and the transgression of desolation, of it to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot. One question is asked. How long?
In Daniel 8: 13, 14. A time limiting span is placed on the vision of just 2300 ereb boqer which is 6 and a bit years THEN it will be CLEANSED.
There is a time limit of 2300 ereb boqer which means ‘evening and morning’ and if you really want to see how long that time span is, then go to Gen 1: 5, 8. using ereb/1242/boqer/6153.
The Aramaic language in which Daniel, was written will not allow the 2300 to be changed into years.
6 and a bit years is it.
Now, there is a message in this about the TIME of all this and it is set by the angel Gabriel. He sets the chezev/visions ‘at the time of the end.’ Which effectively deals the death blow to 70AD!
After Daniel, was told about the abomination of desolation and how it would be for only 6 and a bit years, the angel drops the bomb shell.

Dan 8:15, And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had SEEN THE VISION, and sought for the MEANING, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall BE THE VISION.
So out with the old 70AD and in with the original “the time of the end.”

Within the 6 and a bit years span, we have the second half of it next.
Daniel 7: 25 “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and THEY SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND DIVIDING OF TIME.”

3 ½ years is all the beast has in Rev 13: 4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28.Hitherto is THE END OF THE MATTER.

All fulfilled during the desolation of Jerusalem (Luke 21:20; Revelation 11:2,3; 12:7,11, 13:5; Luke 21:20-28) 70AD.

I am not defending the Preterist position, but they are scripturally correct on the 70AD, events!

Blessings

Lady Goodnews,

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

So who are these that are left to bury "THEM" in Ezekiel 39:12??

How can Israel and ALL the people be burying if they are all "dead"

Who were the princes, kings and Judges of Israel at the time? I have plenty of OT verses to put up on who "they" are if you want me to.

Matt 23:31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of gehenna? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes:

Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may Cleanse the Land. 13 Yea, ALL the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Countdown Quote




18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.19And I SAW THE BEAST, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH/LAND, and THEIR ARMIES, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. The above last verse speaks of world armies not just one army of Rome.




There are plenty of people left to bury the dead. Found in Rev 20: 4.

Rev 19: 20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, AND JUDGEMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND A THOUSAND YEARS.
Quote




(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon YOU, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.




Ezekiel 16: 60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

 

[Mling]

Well, we're talking about the End-Times, Second Coming, Big Shabang. Considering that Jesus said he did not know when it would happen, I think the only people who we can know for certain are wrong are the one's who claim they know when it will happen. edit: or happened.

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Hi Mling,

Well, we're talking about the End-Times, Second Coming, Big Shabang. Considering that Jesus said he did not know when it would happen,

I use to believe that too, then I read...

Mathew 24:36 But of that "day and hour" knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father only.

Did Jesus say no man nor the angels know the DAY and HOUR? Yes!

Did Jesus say he did not know the time? No!

Did Jesus say the disciples would know the time (not day and hour mind you)? Yes!

Jesus had already told the disciples he was coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:21), that is proof he knew when he was coming.

Jesus had also told the disciples the things to watch for, and to make sure they understood he told them to learn a parable of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34).

That parable was to portray the nearness of his coming.

Jesus also told the disciples...

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what HOUR your Lord doth come.

Proof, they could know the time and nearness by the signs, though not the HOUR.

If still in doubt, READ Luke 4:19, Jesus said among other things he came to preach the acceptable YEAR of the Lord (i.e. the appointed time, the day of the Lord, the coming of the Lord with judgment and redemption).

Jesus did not finish reading that prophecy from the book of Isaiah, thus you will have to refer back to it to find the YEAR of the Lord ...

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable "YEAR of the Lord," and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort ALL that mourn.

Jesus knew the acceptable "YEAR of the Lord," (i.e. Day of the Lord/ Coming of the Lord) was the days of vengeance, as surely as he knew the book of Isaiah.

He told the disciples that much in (Luke 21:20-28).

I think the only people who we can know for certain are wrong are the one's who claim they know when it will happen. edit: or happened.

Do you still believe Jesus did not know the acceptable "YEAR of the Lord," (i.e. Day of the Lord/ Coming of the Lord), was the days of vengeance (Isaiah 61:1-2, Luke 4:18-19; Luke 21:20-28)?


Blessings,

Lady Goodnews,

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Lady Goodnews

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Mling,




I use to believe that too, then I read...

Mathew 24:36 But of that "day and hour" knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father only.

Did Jesus say no man nor the angels know the DAY and HOUR? Yes!

Did you ever look into the Greek behind this?

For hour - hora:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1152415651-2696.html

1) a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
a) of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2) the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
3) a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun) 4) any definite time, point of time, moment



we know the Second coming will be after the Tribulation. As wto when the rapture is - ?

 

[DeaconDean]

Lady Goodnews, I have been away from the forum for a while so I haven't had a chance to reply, but I will now.

First off, you said:

...I argue from the scriptures...Jesus kept his promise to his disciples, to come with angels and reward every man according to their deeds before they [the disciples] all died (Matthew 16:27,28).

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." -Matt. 16:27

In the first place, every commentator gives this scripture as a reference to future fulfillment. At His second coming.

Secondly, after His resurrection, He preached, and taught for 40 days before He ascended into heaven. (Acts 1:3) When Jesus appeared in the upper room to the Disciples, He did not come with angels. Scripture does not bare witness to this. True ngels were sitting by the tomb, but the angel was only seen by Mary and not the disciples.

Thridly, Jesus ministered forty days past His resurrection, only after His ascention did any angels appear to the disciples. And then it was only to tell them that "as ye seen Him go, He will return in like manner." (Acts 1:11)

Fourthly, the only other appearence Jesus made after His ascention into heaven was to Paul on the Damascus road. And then, it was only a bright light (Acts 9:3) and a voice from heaven (Acts 9:4). Not counting Jesus' revelation to John in heaven.

And according to Jesus' own words in Matt 24:30-31, if He appeared as you said to the disciples and rewarded them, then according to Jesus' own words, all the elect would be taken out.

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -Matt. 24:31

Upon His return, the elect from all over the face of the earth, would be gathered. Did this happen in AD 70? No it did not. Jesus can not return until all prophesy has been fulfilled. Such as:

"...many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." -Dan. 12:4

Even in Jesus' time, knowledge was fairly simple. Traveling would take days, months, years. Knowledge now in a hundred fold from that time. When Paul was imprisioned in Philippi, a messenger was sent ahead. It took three months roughly, to get from Philippi to Rome. Today, that would take just under an hour. So all prophesy was not fulfilled by AD 70.

When addressing Jesus' words about the temple, Marks 13:2 says:

"Seest thou these great buildings?"

Notice that it is plural, meaning more than one. Fort Antonia was part of the temple "buildings." If you had read "The War of the Jews" then you are familiar with this:

"Titus commanded part of his army to quench the fire, and to make a road for the more easy marching up of the legions, while he himself gathered the commanders together. Of those there were assembled the six principal persons: Tiberius Alexander, the commander [under the general] of the whole army; with Sextus Cerealis, the commander of the fifth legion; and Larcius Lepidus, the commander of the tenth legion; and Titus Frigius, the commander of the fifteenth legion: there was also with them Eternius, the leader of the two legions that came from Alexandria; and Marcus Antonius Julianus, procurator of Judea: after these came together all the rest of the procurators and tribunes. Titus proposed to these that they should give him their advice what should be done about the holy house. Now some of these thought it would be the best way to act according to the rules of war, [and demolish it,] because the Jews would never leave off rebelling while that house was standing; at which house it was that they used to get all together. Others of them were of opinion, that in case the Jews would leave it, and none of them would lay their arms up in it, he might save it; but that in case they got upon it, and fought any more, he might burn it; because it must then be looked upon not as a holy house, but as a citadel; and that the impiety of burning it would then belong to those that forced this to be done, and not to them. But Titus said, that "although the Jews should get upon that holy house, and fight us thence, yet ought we not to revenge ourselves on things that are inanimate, instead of the men themselves;" and that he was not in any case for burning down so vast a work as that was, because this would be a mischief to the Romans themselves, as it would be an ornament to their government while it continued." -Josephus, The War of the Jews, 6.2.3

And:

"Moreover, the hope of plunder induced many to go on, as having this opinion, that all the places within were full of money, and as seeing that all round about it was made of gold. And besides, one of those that went into the place prevented Caesar, when he ran so hastily out to restrain the soldiers, and threw the fire upon the hinges of the gate, in the dark; whereby the flame burst out from within the holy house itself immediately, when the commanders retired, and Caesar with them, and when nobody any longer forbade those that were without to set fire to it. And thus was the holy house burnt down, without Caesar's approbation." -Josephus, The War of the Jews, 6.2.7

Titus did not want the Temple to be destroyed! In fact, when he found out it was on fire, he commanded the army to extinguish the flames. But being carried away in the moment, they could not hear him. Thus, "the holy house was burnt down, without Titus' approval."

Another thing, both Peter and Paul were executed by Nero sometime between AD 65-67. How could they have seen Jerusalem encompassed with armies? They were gone even by the time Cestus Gallius laid seige to Jerusalem before AD 65.

Another point, Mt. Moriah is the place where Abraham was to offer up Isaac to the Lord. This place is Holy to the Jews, whether you choose to believe it or not. But it is also holy to the Muslems for Mohammad was supposedly carried up to the heavens at this same spot.


For all prophesy to have been fulfilled at AD 70, then Jesus by His own words would have to come back to gather His elect. But this has not happened yet. Once Jesus ascended to heaven, He has not returned yet, not even to reward the disciples. Stephen was chosen to replace Judas, yet when Stephen was stoned, Jesus didn't return with His angels to get him or reward him, rather heaven was opened up and Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of the Father. (Acts 7:56)

Logiclly, your conclusions are wrong Sister, I sorry.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -Matt. 24:31

Upon His return, the elect from all over the face of the earth, would be gathered. Did this happen in AD 70? No it did not. Jesus can not return until all prophesy has been fulfilled. Such as:

What is your definition of "earth"?

This would sound odd saying "the earth of Israel".

(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.

Reve 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the land, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number [is] as the sand of the sea

 

[DeaconDean]

As the KJV Greek Lexicon says:

"the universe, the world"

This world.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.

Reve 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the land, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number [is] as the sand of the sea

As the KJV Greek Lexicon says:

"the universe, the world"

This world.

Badly mistranslated KJV: World occurs 287 times in 248 verses: The word World is only used 3 times in all of revelation.

tebel (Strong's 08398) occurs 36 times in 36 verses

kosmos (Strong's 2889) occurs 187 times in 152 verses:

187 + 36 = 223 287 - 223 = 64 times "mistranslated".

Reve 20:7 nations which are in the four corners of the land,

gwniaiV <1137> {CORNERS} thV <3588> {OF THE} ghV <1093> ton <3588> {LAND}

 

[DeaconDean]

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."-Mark 13:27

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth/LAND to the uttermost part of heaven."-Mark 13:27

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.

Reve 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the land, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number [is] as the sand of the sea

Badly mistranslated KJV: World occurs 287 times in 248 verses: The word World is only used 3 times in all of revelation.

tebel (Strong's 08398) occurs 36 times in 36 verses

kosmos (Strong's 2889) occurs 187 times in 152 verses:

187 + 36 = 223 287 - 223 = 64 times "mistranslated".

Reve 20:7 nations which are in the four corners of the land,

gwniaiV <1137> {CORNERS} thV <3588> {OF THE} ghV <1093> ton <3588> {LAND}

 

[DeaconDean]

So what is your point?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth/LAND to the uttermost part of heaven."-Mark 13:27

So what is your point?

The point is Bad Translation and Bad/Misleading interpretation concerning Daniel and Revelation and Israel.

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

(NKJV) Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.

Reve 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the land, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number [is] as the sand of the sea

Badly mistranslated KJV: World occurs 287 times in 248 verses: The word World is only used 3 times in all of revelation.

tebel (Strong's 08398) occurs 36 times in 36 verses

kosmos (Strong's 2889) occurs 187 times in 152 verses:

187 + 36 = 223 287 - 223 = 64 times "mistranslated".

Reve 20:7 nations which are in the four corners of the land,

gwniaiV <1137> {CORNERS} thV <3588> {OF THE} ghV <1093> ton <3588> {LAND}

 

[DeaconDean]

My point is:

I argue from the scriptures,...and don't deny Jesus kept his promise to his disciples, to come with angels and reward every man according to their deeds before they [the disciples] all died (Matthew 16:27,28).

If Jesus told his disciples that, how can anyone doubt he did it?

Jesus did not return to reward His disciples separately from the rest. When Jesus returns, His angels will go out to gather the elect. Did this happen either before AD 70 or immediately after AD 70? No it did not.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

Jesus did not return to reward His disciples separately from the rest. When Jesus returns, His angels will go out to gather the elect. Did this happen either before AD 70 or immediately after AD 70? No it did not.

I won't know until I finish translating Revelation and Daniel 11. Most of it is all Symbolic.

Daniel 2:35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the IMAGE became a great mountain and filled the whole earth/land.

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the COVENANT which the LORD has made with you according to all these words."

Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [that of] Abel.

Hebrew 9:20 saying, "This [is] the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the LAW almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore [it was] necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Hello DeaconDean,

My point is:



Jesus did not return to reward His disciples separately from the rest. When Jesus returns, His angels will go out to gather the elect. Did this happen either before AD 70 or immediately after AD 70? No it did not.

If you are not persuaded by Jesus own words (Matthew 16:27,28), there is nothing I can add.

Lady Goodnews,

 

[Lady Goodnews]

Hi FreeinChrist

Did you ever look into the Greek behind this?

No, I don't know Greek (however I do read from the Interlinear Bible, Greek-Hebrew-English).

For hour - hora:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1152415651-2696.html

1) a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
a) of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2) the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
3) a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun) 4) any definite time, point of time, moment

If you know Greek would you please explain how the word "hour" in the Greek relate to...

1 John 2:28 Young ones, it is the last "hour," and as you heard that the antichrit is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up: from which you know it is the last "hour." Thanks!

we know the Second coming will be after the Tribulation. As wto when the rapture is - ?

Immediately "after" the tribulation... (Matthew 24:29-31).


Blessings,

Lady Goodnews,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

we know the Second coming will be after the Tribulation. As wto when the rapture is - ?

Immediately "after" the tribulation... (Matthew 24:29-31).
If you know Greek would you please explain how the word "hour" in the Greek relate to...

1 John 2:28 Young ones, it is the last "hour," and as you heard that the antichrit is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up: from which you know it is the last "hour." Thanks!


Blessings,
Lady Goodnews,

We had a thread on the Fig Tree on another board. I believe "futurists/literalists" will do well to study that symbolic story. Too many christians appear to focus on the Jews of today instead of the Jews of the OT/NT and what they "symbolized".

http://www.christianforums.com/t3144781-the-fig-tree.html

The House of Judah also consisted of the Priesthood of Levi who also ruled over Israel from Jerusalem.

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'"

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articl...ardonable.html

George Hawtin has written: "In God's holy word the house of Judah is likened unto a fig tree. See Jer. 24:1-8 where they are likened unto a basket of EVIL FIGS when they were first carried away into Babylon. The Jews understood this symbol in their day as clearly as though the Lord had called them by name. The account of the cursing of the fig tree (Mat. 21:19) is vivid in the mind of every student of scripture.

The story records that Jesus, being hungry and ready to eat, saw a fig tree afar off having leaves upon it, but, upon coming to the tree, He found to His surprise that there was no fruit upon it. Though the time of figs was not yet, this strange instance is explained by the simple fact that, unlike other trees, it is the nature of the fig tree to bear her fruit first and the leaves afterward. Therefore, since there were leaves, the Lord was right to expect fruit also. What a picture this is of the house of Judah! Plenty of leaves! All manner of outward show! But no fruit.

The children of Abraham on the outside, but the children of the devil within! So Jesus pronounced a curse upon the fig tree, which is symbolic of the house of Judah, commonly known as the Jews, saying, 'May no fruit grow on you to the age' (Mat. 21:19, Diaglott). And when they returned and saw the tree the next day, it was dried up. In cursing the fig tree, He was symbolically cursing the house of Judah to the age, that is to say, unto the kingdom age. It is not correct to use the word forever here as in the common version, for Judah will be restored in the kingdom.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[DeaconDean]

Let me get this right:

...I argue from the scriptures...Jesus kept his promise to his disciples, to come with angels and reward every man according to their deeds before they [the disciples] all died (Matthew 16:27,28).

So if I follow you, Jesus has already returned anywhere from one to as many as twelve times. And your basing this on:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -Matt. 16:27-28

Jesus would come back and reward the disciples before they died. That would mean that Jesus returned anywhere from one to twelve times after His resurrection to reward the disciples before they died because all the disciples did not die at the same time.

Interesting, very interesting.