preterism

[StuckRags]

The "Left Behind" series teached that people will be given a second chance.... and that's not biblical.

~serapha~

I haven't read all the books (up to Apollyon, I think), but where does it show people getting a second chance? As long as you are alive, you are still working on your FIRST chance.

 

[StuckRags]

Atonement for sins, and therefore salvation, can not be achieved outside of the impution of the righteousness of Christ brought by faith in his saving work on the cross.

If you need further clarification, let me know.

Consider:

Luk 16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he [the rich man] lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

There was evidently some provision for the faithful prior to Jesus.

 

[Toms777]

Toms777 says that they were not rejected, but the Bible says that they were, Who shall we believe?

But the Bible does not say that the Jews were rejected as a people, which is what we were discussing.

Please address post #246 You keep trying to say that God did not reject any Jews. You have failed to understand Paul's argument and ignored the context of Romans.

Quote me where I said "any", the word which you emphasize. As I have said before, race does not enter into salvation. Just as God did not reject the Jews as a people (contrary to what some preterists appear to say), he also did not reject the Gentiles as a people. Neither did he save either the Jews or the gentiles as an entire race.

No one was saved by the Old Covenant. It was a ministry of death. The primary focus of the Old was condemnation, it gave power to sin. It was not able to make the conscience clean.

Abraham indeed heard the gospel and looked forward to Christ, and he and all the saints longed and anticipated for the Christ as their hope and the fulfillment of the promises.

Ah, so then you will agree with me that salvation was available before Jesus died on the cross, not outside of the cross, but through faith in the Messiah to come. The rituals under the OC did not save, but all the OC pointed towards the coming Messiah.

So, to bring this back on topic, when the Old Covenant ended, those people that continued to put their faith in it rather than the One with whom they covenanted, they were cast out and suffered more than any before or since

Just as people who put their faith in the Church or their theological system will find that there is no salvation in either of those, the Jews who put their faith in the rituals rather than Him to whom the rituals pointed are not saved.

Agreed.

 

[Toms777]

Righteousness does not equal salvation.

Interesting.

How does one become righteous outside of Christ?

 

[Toms777]

Toms7, no one was saved until Christ's work on the cross.

Some indeed had the promise of salvation, but not the thing itself. After they physically died, They were kept in Sheol, apart from the presence of God, until the parousia in 70 when Hades was emptied and the righteous dead were bodily resurrected into God's presence.

It was at that point, and not before, that they were "Saved".

Okay, so the OC pointed prophetically towards the coming Messiah and His sacrifice on teh cross. I disagree agree with your definition of salvation. THose who are not saved are destined for hell upon their death, but these folk who were spared hell, but rather went to paradise (part of hades) awaiting the time when <b>part</b> of hades was emptied.

Clearly a differentiation was made between those who had faith in the redemption of the coming Messiah and those who did not.

 

[Suede]

Toms777


+++In the same conversation, the comments were made about pregnancy.+++


So? So what? There’s also comments about other things in there, that doesn’t elminate the only audience which is the disciples.



+++You cannot have it both ways. If you are not willing to be consistent in your interpretation, then it is clear that you have an issue+++



I am consistent, I state that it’s only the Disciples and Biblically back it. Since you have failed to back your position several times now, I understand that you cannot and we will move on now.



+++Your Rev 22 must be written different than mine.
Rev 22:3
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.+++



Actually it isn’t. You read the wrong verse. Besides though, the sons of God, Christians, aren’t under the curse of sin. So, my view is apt either way.

+++Your theology still allows for sin to prevail, thus says that Jesus is not fully in control.+++



Who said sin was going away forever? No one. You still sin, but you are saved, because Jesus IS in control. However, one can only have their sins washed away if they are a believer. But not everyone is a believer, nor will the world ever be entirely Christian. Only Christians have the benefit of no sin through Jesus, not the entire world. That’s universalism.

SUEDE

 

[Toms777]

+++In the same conversation, the comments were made about pregnancy.+++



So? So what? There’s also comments about other things in there, that doesn’t elminate the only audience which is the disciples.

I have no problem with it, but the preterists on here have said that the message is intyended exclusively for those who originally heard the message, thus I presume that the preterists believe that one of the apostles was pregnant. Now once you give up that idea, then the problem goes away.

+++Your Rev 22 must be written different than mine.

Rev 22:3

3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.+++



Actually it isn’t. You read the wrong verse. Besides though, the sons of God, Christians, aren’t under the curse of sin. So, my view is apt either way.

Okay, so I am wrong because you say so....I trust you won't be too offended if I don't buy that argument.

+++Your theology still allows for sin to prevail, thus says that Jesus is not fully in control.+++



Who said sin was going away forever? No one. You still sin, but you are saved, because Jesus IS in control. However, one can only have their sins washed away if they are a believer. But not everyone is a believer, nor will the world ever be entirely Christian.

Scripture says that when the final judgement comes, that ther unsaved will spend eternity in hell.

Only Christians have the benefit of no sin through Jesus, not the entire world. That’s universalism.

Denial of eternity in hell is also a universalists doctrine.

 

[parousia70]

Scripture says that when the final judgement comes, that ther unsaved will spend eternity in hell.

Suffering IN THEIR SIN forever.

See?
Sin exists forever in your theology too.

Like I said, you objection appears to revolve around the eternal LOCATION of Sin and suffering, and not the eternal existance of it.

For some reason, you seem completely comfortable with God allowing sin to exist forever somewhere besides earth.


Whats difference does it make to you where sin exists forever?
It has no power over you no matter where it is, right?

 

[parousia70]

Okay, so the OC pointed prophetically towards the coming Messiah and His sacrifice on teh cross. I disagree agree with your definition of salvation. THose who are not saved are destined for hell upon their death, but these folk who were spared hell, but rather went to paradise (part of hades) awaiting the time when <b>part</b> of hades was emptied.

Clearly a differentiation was made between those who had faith in the redemption of the coming Messiah and those who did not.

Well, if they were already saved, why did they have to wait?

You admit they were not brought into the presence of God, indeed kept apart from Him, yet you argue they had complete salvation.

How does that work exactly?

What were they missing?

 

[Suede]

Toms777,

+++I have no problem with it, but the preterists on here have said that the message is intended exclusively for those who originally heard the message,+++

Well, it's the Bible that says that, so we as Christians must believe that. Remeber, the Bible states it was a PRIVATE conversation.

+++Scripture says that when the final judgement comes, that ther unsaved will spend eternity in hell.+++
Right, and Preterism doesn't deny this. Only we understand the Judgement and it's timing based on the Bible, not presumptions. The Judgement was imminent when the apostles were writing; they knew it would be within their lifetime. Remember, ALL things were to happen within that specific generation, this of course includes the judgement.

SUEDE

 

[armothe]

Interesting.

How does one become righteous outside of Christ?

Now that Christ came and established His kingdom on earth, there is no way other than through Christ to appear righteous before God.

Prior to Christ's advent- there was no kingdom established on earth at that time. Thus righteousness was acreditted to those who were faithful towards God.

Future salvation may have been earned through righteousness in the OT- but was not yet a reality until Christ's work on earth was complete, and perhaps as some believe; preached the gospel to those in Hades. Remember - "No one comes to the father but by me".

Thus, I would propose that Abraham and Noah were declared righteous due to their faith - but had not yet gained a "salvation" of everlasting life in God's kingdom. At least not until Christ unlocked the keys of Hades and stood to judge the dead at his second coming.

-A

 

[Toms777]

Now that Christ came and established His kingdom on earth, there is no way other than through Christ to appear righteous before God.

Prior to Christ's advent- there was no kingdom established on earth at that time. Thus righteousness was acreditted to those who were faithful towards God.

Future salvation may have been earned through righteousness in the OT- but was not yet a reality until Christ's work on earth was complete, and perhaps as some believe; preached the gospel to those in Hades. Remember - "No one comes to the father but by me".

Thus, I would propose that Abraham and Noah were declared righteous due to their faith - but had not yet gained a "salvation" of everlasting life in God's kingdom. At least not until Christ unlocked the keys of Hades and stood to judge the dead at his second coming.

-A

So are you saying that there were two ways to be saved - one before the cross and a different way to be saved afterward?

 

[Toms777]

Toms777,

+++I have no problem with it, but the preterists on here have said that the message is intended exclusively for those who originally heard the message,+++

Well, it's the Bible that says that, so we as Christians must believe that. Remeber, the Bible states it was a PRIVATE conversation.

No, actually, you have not shown me where the Bible says that. You said it, and told me that is the way that you interpret it.

[/QUOTE]
+++Scripture says that when the final judgement comes, that ther unsaved will spend eternity in hell.+++
Right, and Preterism doesn't deny this. Only we understand the Judgement and it's timing based on the Bible, not presumptions. The Judgement was imminent when the apostles were writing; they knew it would be within their lifetime. Remember, ALL things were to happen within that specific generation, this of course includes the judgement.
[/QUOTE]
That is my point. So those who have no accepted Christ now will never face judgement and hell - is that what you are saying?

 

[Toms777]

Well, if they were already saved, why did they have to wait?

You admit they were not brought into the presence of God, indeed kept apart from Him, yet you argue they had complete salvation.

How does that work exactly?

What were they missing?

Why do you always mis-represent what i say by changing teh wording? Could you please try to actually refer to what I actually said? I never said that they were outside the presence of God. How could that be?

Ps 139:7-8
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
NKJV

 

[stauron]

But the Bible does not say that the Jews were rejected as a people, which is what we were discussing.

You're not much for context are you? Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel. He contrasts the 7000 with the rest of the nation.

Quote me where I said "any", the word which you emphasize. As I have said before, race does not enter into salvation. Just as God did not reject the Jews as a people (contrary to what some preterists appear to say), he also did not reject the Gentiles as a people. Neither did he save either the Jews or the gentiles as an entire race.

But the Bible clearly says that Israel was rejected. God rejected the gentiles in the selection of Abraham to father the race that would become His people. The Old Covenant was not about salvation and gave the Israelites the special privilege of being God's servant.

To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Just as people who put their faith in the Church or their theological system will find that there is no salvation in either of those, the Jews who put their faith in the rituals rather than Him to whom the rituals pointed are not saved.

Agreed.

I am glad we agree on this point, because this is the whole argument. The Jews believed they were God's people. The remnant believed Christ. The greatest suffering ever of all time, before or since, was those Jews that continued to cling to the dung of the Old Covenant and called themselves the people of God, but were really the synagogue of satan. They killed the Messiah, spurned God's grace and persecuted the 7000. They were hardened and when their judgement came it was the worst ever. So now that we agree on this point let's move on to your other objections.

 

[Suede]

Toms777

+++No, actually, you have not shown me where the Bible says that. You said it, and told me that is the way that you interpret it.+++

Actually I did show you back in message 233. But, here's the verse again,

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

And as I said in message 233, if you cannot Biblically refute it, it stands.

+++So those who have no accepted Christ now will never face judgement and hell - is that what you are saying?+++

No, Preterism does NOT teach universalism.</FONT>

SUEDE

 

[armothe]

So are you saying that there were two ways to be saved - one before the cross and a different way to be saved afterward?

Yes, and No.

Please note Revelation 20:11-15 where it clearly states those in Hades will be judged based upon their deeds and works.

So yes, they were judged/saved? on the basis of their deeds and works.

(What is unspecified is as to whether these were works done on earth, works done in Hades, or both.)

However, the one thing that is absolutely clear is that judgement could only be performed once the redeeming plan of Christ was completely finished.

-A

 

[mikefromwichita]

Also, the Book of Reveleation was written in 96 AD, AFTER 70 AD.

You are real sure of that????? You have like maybe some proof?

 

[Higgaion]

I'm undecided about exactly where I come down on eschatological matters, but agree with reformedfan and others who question why Preterism should be considered so beyond the pale as to be heretical and banished to the unorthodox outlands to keep company with Arminianism, Catholicism, Mormonism and other cults/false religions. Personally, I think it's the Dispy Pre-Mil Pre-trib rapture theology that should be tossed out as heterodox. Things are really out of whack here, and in Christendom at large.

 

[mikefromwichita]

For this to be true, then you would have to tell me that the tribulation of the destruction of Jersualem (and yes I have read Josephus from end to end) is worse than the entire holocaust that was initiated under Hitler, and the massacre of 1-2 million Cambodians under Pol Pot.

Having studied the events of the holocaust under Hitler and having watched events through the news unfold in Cambodia under Pol Pot, and having read Josephus from end to end and the area regarding the destruction of Jersalem a number of times, I cannot see any possible way to justify such a position.

.....................................

The Tribulation that is in view is not just a destruction of Persons and property, but also God's Abrogation of the Old Covenant with Israel. The Jews along with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD were stripped of their position as God's Chosen People.