preterism

[Toms777]

Do you believe in everlasting punishement for unbelievers?

Before you get into 20 questions, as I said before, let's deal with one issue at a time. Now you asked me a question and I directly answered it...kindly show me the same courtesy.

YOU ASKED:


Lets see where the rubber hits the road shall we?

Do you believe the Jews today are blinded by God because of their DNA or not?

I ANSWERED and ASKED YOU A QUESTION. --------------
No, do you?

A simple yes or no will do.
--------------
Now, I note that you are tryingt o expand into all sorts of questions without closing out one issue at a time, and I am afraid that I am going to have to object as I said before.

Now, please show me the same courtesy that I have shown to you.

 

[parousia70]

Before you get into 20 questions, as I said before, let's deal with one issue at a time. Now you asked me a question and I directly answered it...kindly show me the same courtesy.

YOU ASKED:


Lets see where the rubber hits the road shall we?

Do you believe the Jews today are blinded by God because of their DNA or not?

I ANSWERED and ASKED YOU A QUESTION. --------------
No, do you?

A simple yes or no will do.

No I don't.

Then please enlighten me on what you mean by "God is not finished with the Jews"

Based on the above, you must be referring to God's offer of slavation to Jews through Christ in this age, which you and I would agree.

If it goes beyond that, please explain.

BTW, you jumped issues to the sin question, not me.

 

[Toms777]

Toms,

+++All based upon your assumptions, circular reasoning and you willingness to apply your rules to one aspect of the discussion when it supports you, and to ignore it when it does not.+++

Sorry Tom, we already saw objectively that it was PRIVATE conversation and the disicples asked Christ to tell THEM the answers. If you can't objectively disprove it, it stands firm.

SUEDE

Can't admit that it was all part of the same discussion can you? Eyes firmly shut....

 

[Toms777]

No I don't.

Then please enlighten me on what you mean by "God is not finished with the Jews"

Based on the above, you must be referring to God's offer of slavation to Jews through Christ in this age, which you and I would agree.

If it goes beyond that, please explain.

BTW, you jumped issues to the sin question, not me.

Hmmm....maybe we have a different view as to what the covenants are all about then if you don't think that we have been discussing sin all along.

What do you think that the Old Covenant was about?

 

[parousia70]

Hmmm....maybe we have a different view as to what the covenants are all about then if you don't think that we have been discussing sin all along.

Well, the everlasting existance of sin was first brought up by you a couple posts ago... however, feel free to demonstrate that particular question being under discussion "all along".

 

[Toms777]

Well, the everlasting existance of sin was first brought up by you a couple posts ago... however, feel free to demonstrate that particular question being under discussion "all along".

As I asked, what do you think that the Old Covenant was about? maybe we have a far wider gap than I thought.

 

[parousia70]

As I asked, what do you think that the Old Covenant was about? maybe we have a far wider gap than I thought.

simply put, the OC was about pointing a people toward Christ BEFORE he was born.


on second thought... scratch the above, it was about pointint a people toward Christ as long as the Law was in effect.

 

[Toms777]

simply put, the OC was about pointing a people toward Christ BEFORE he was born.

And do you see that it had anything to do with sin?

How do you believe that people were saved before the death and resurrection of Christ?

 

[parousia70]

And do you see that it had anything to do with sin?

How do you believe that people were saved before the death and resurrection of Christ?

they weren't

 

[parousia70]

did you have a point?

 

[Toms777]

they weren't

Let me ensure that I understand properly...are you saying that there was no salvation before the death and resurrection of Jesus?

 

[parousia70]

And do you see that it had anything to do with sin?

sure... the law gave sin it's strength, without the Law, sin is not imputed

 

[parousia70]

Let me ensure that I understand properly...are you saying that there was no salvation before the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Atonement for sins, and therefore salvation, can not be achieved outside of the impution of the righteousness of Christ brought by faith in his saving work on the cross.

If you need further clarification, let me know.

 

[Toms777]

Atonement for sins, and therefore salvation, can not be achieved outside of the impution of the righteousness of Christ brought by faith in his saving work on the cross.

If you need further clarification, let me know.

I would like a yes or no - do you believe that there was no salvation prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus?

 

[parousia70]

I would like a yes or no - do you believe that there was no salvation prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus?

yes there was no salvation

Which, judging by the following statement of yours from your post #253, you and I are in agreement.

I have taken the position that all must be saved and judged accoprding to whether they have accepted Jesus as Saviour.

 

[parousia70]

although......

my answer is confined to the temporal realm, for in resurrection, we are brought into such unity with Christ that, like Christ, we are "with God in the beginning".....

but that may be for another thread.......

 

[Toms777]

yes there was no salvation

Which, judging by the following statement of yours from your post #253, you and I are in agreement.

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Not at all. Indeed scripture gives quite a different picture.

James 2:22-24
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
NKJV

Abraham was saved as were many others under the Old Covenant. Not outside of the sacrifice of the cross, but the cross was not restricted to a timeframe therefore the Old Covenant rituals were priophetic of the coming sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and thopse who had faith in the coming Messiah were saved just as much as those who believed in Jesus afterward.

This is why I got confused when you didn't think taht we were talking about sin, because the primary focus of the Old Covenant was Jesus, the gospel and the sacrifice for sin, but it was prophetic because Jesus had not yet come and died on the cross. Thus when i was speaking of the Old Covenant, I was indeed speaking of the gospel and of sin and salvation.

 

[stauron]

But the Bible says that He did NOT reject the Jews, yet you say that He did. Who shall I believe?

Toms777 says that they were not rejected, but the Bible says that they were, Who shall we believe?

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world

Please address post #246 You keep trying to say that God did not reject any Jews. You have failed to understand Paul's argument and ignored the context of Romans.

Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened...

Abraham was saved as were many others under the Old Covenant. Not outside of the sacrifice of the cross, but the cross was not restricted to a timeframe therefore the Old Covenant rituals were priophetic of the coming sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and thopse who had faith in the coming Messiah were saved just as much as those who believed in Jesus afterward.

This is why I got confused when you didn't think taht we were talking about sin, because the primary focus of the Old Covenant was Jesus, the gospel and the sacrifice for sin, but it was prophetic because Jesus had not yet come and died on the cross. Thus when i was speaking of the Old Covenant, I was indeed speaking of the gospel and of sin and salvation.

Faith occured before the sacrifice, but salvation did not occur. That was the point of Sheol, the holding place of the dead. The way into the presense of God was not yet manifest because neither the people nor the place were sprinkled with the Blood.

No one was saved by the Old Covenant. It was a ministry of death. The primary focus of the Old was condemnation, it gave power to sin. It was not able to make the conscience clean.

Abraham indeed heard the gospel and looked forward to Christ, and he and all the saints longed and anticipated for the Christ as their hope and the fulfillment of the promises.

So, to bring this back on topic, when the Old Covenant ended, those people that continued to put their faith in it rather than the One with whom they covenanted, they were cast out and suffered more than any before or since.

 

[parousia70]

As usual, not much to add to Saturon's comments. He and I are in complete agreement.

Toms7, no one was saved until Christ's work on the cross.

Some indeed had the promise of salvation, but not the thing itself. After they physically died, They were kept in Sheol, apart from the presence of God, until the parousia in 70 when Hades was emptied and the righteous dead were bodily resurrected into God's presence.

It was at that point, and not before, that they were "Saved".

 

[armothe]

Not at all. Indeed scripture gives quite a different picture.

James 2:22-24
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

Righteousness does not equal salvation. Salvation is only accomplished through Jesus the Christ. And as far as the Mosaic law making anybody righteous...
you should read Romans 3.

Or Galatians 2:16 - having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.

Whoever was declared righteous in the OT was indeed righteous....but they did not have salvation at that time.

-A