preterism

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reformedfan

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If the Nicene Creed doesn't call the final judgement the"second" coming of Christ, why are preterists banished here with the Mormons & cults? Is God only allowed one day of judgement? (and it's at the "second" coming alone?) What about the "Day of the Lord" language of the OT (many times it appears, but I'm too lazy to write down more than a few- Amos 5:18-20,Joel 2:1-11,Ezek. 30:1-19, etc.) is that all futuristic, meaning the "second" coming?
Since when does "what's popular" define "what's orthodox"? What if the "Left Behind" books are bad theology? For sure that view didn't become popular until the turn of the century, when it was invented. Before the 1880's there was no such school of thought on any pre- or post- trib rapture. What has been the accepted view of the church, church fathers, early theologians & Christ (John 17:15) suddenly is lumped in with non Trinitarians, & banished here & dismissed as "nontraditional"?? Huh? What's up with that?

(and honestly I still don't understand this forum, or if I'll ever see this posting again. Thank you if anyone responds, sorry if you never hear back from me, this place is a labyrinth.)
 

Serapha

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reformedfan said:
What if the "Left Behind" books are bad theology?

Hi there!

:wave:

There's no "if" about it. The "Left Behind" series teached that people will be given a second chance.... and that's not biblical. The "Left Behind" series is bad theology, and it just a story. The author never states that the theology presented in the books is biblically and doctrinally pure.


~serapha~
 
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Serapha

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reformedfan said:
For sure that view didn't become popular until the turn of the century, when it was invented. Before the 1880's there was no such school of thought on any pre- or post- trib rapture.
Hi there!

:wave:

How untrue!

The strongest arguments for a premillenial rapture comes from interpretations of the Book of Revelation written by the Apostle John. The strongest evidence and support comes from Polycarp and Hierapolis who both studied with John.

A literal interpretation is the basis for the premillenial rapture. Tertullian argues in his work "Against Praxeas" (Chapter 13) that "words ought to be taken and understood in the sense in which they are writen, especially when they are not expressed in allegories and parables, but in determinate and simple declarations."

Ephraim (pseudo-Ephraim) writes a homily on "The End of the World" with the statement "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world?.... All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which ovrwhelms the world because of our sins." (Jeffrey Grant, Apocalyps, Frontier Research Publications, 1992, p85-96)

The doctrines concerning the Rapture were squelched by the Gnostics and the rule of the Roman Catholic Church as being heretic. There were no Bibles available to the masses until the printing press made copies available to the public. Trinity College of Dublin Ireland was a frontrunner in the studies of premillenialism, and there was recurring of premillenial thought after the reformation.

Martin Luther writes, "I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared. Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing and cheerful mind." Just as the early church thought that the return of Christ was imminent, so did Luther. A belief that the return of Christ was imminent is reflective of a "Rapture" return prior to the tribulations as Martin Luther was aware that the tribulations were not over when he wrote stating to look for the return of our Redeemer. The early church questioned if the persecutions that they were enduring were of the tribulations, and Paul told them to look for the return of Christ at any time. Paul obviously believed in a "rapturing" of the church and imminent return of Christ for his Bride.

Paul identifies this in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, when Paul shows that the day of the Lord could not take place until there was a departure 1) from earth, or 2) of the saints. In Verse 7 of the same chapter the lawless system could not be in effect until the restrainer is taken away. The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth with the rapture. The Holy Spirit is the only restrainer holding back the evil of this world (satan).

Premillenialism and Rapture doctrine was again developed through the 18th and 19th centuries. Reverend Morgan Edwards published a book, "Milleneum, Last Days Noveltus", in 1788 which described the tribulation. He claimed to have preached the rapture from 1742 and was probably influenced by John Gill's teachings.

In the 1830's, John Darby supported the rapture doctine and included futurism which supported a secret rapture. This is not the current doctrine as the Word of God tells us that every eye will see the Christ on his return (Rev 1:7). C. I. Scofield developed the dispensationist views on the Bible as well as developed and published the doctrines on Rapture. This brought the doctrine into mainstream Christianity.

This doctrine is what is carried into the 21 Centruy and with a slight modification of progressive dispensationalism introduced in 1988; it the doctrine taught in the fundamental schools of theology today.

I hope this helps in your understanding.


~serapha~
 
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reformedfan

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Gary DeMar's books might help you out, thanks for responding, though.
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Paul & early church fathers warned of a rapture.
My concern is that the traditional church view is now dismissed as heresy, and that which was traditionally viewed as heretical teaching has become wildly popular, hence orthodox.
I am a preterist, Christ came in judgement in 70 AD & destroyed the temple (Matt 23:36) and one day, at the end of history as we know it, He will come again to judge the living & the dead. He will come in judgement many times between today & the final judgement, which the Nicene Creed alludes to. To say I belong with cult people because I don't believe a rapture is Biblical is absurd, that was my main point of contention on the thread.
But thanx.
(And praise God I found my way back to this spot!!)
 
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Toms777

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reformedfan said:
Gary DeMar's books might help you out, thanks for responding, though.
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Paul & early church fathers warned of a rapture.
My concern is that the traditional church view is now dismissed as heresy, and that which was traditionally viewed as heretical teaching has become wildly popular, hence orthodox.
I am a preterist, Christ came in judgement in 70 AD & destroyed the temple (Matt 23:36) and one day, at the end of history as we know it, He will come again to judge the living & the dead. He will come in judgement many times between today & the final judgement, which the Nicene Creed alludes to. To say I belong with cult people because I don't believe a rapture is Biblical is absurd, that was my main point of contention on the thread.
But thanx.
(And praise God I found my way back to this spot!!)
Maybe you'd like to tell us about where each of the prphetic events shown in Matthew 24 and 25 occurred historically.

Also, the Book of Reveleation was written in 96 AD, AFTER 70 AD.
 
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reformedfan

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Don't get furious at me, dude, if I'm wrong God'll let me know when I'm dead, relax.

Matt 24 starts in Matt 23, with Christ ripping the Pharisees up one side & down the other. What had they done that was so horrible? Wait, what is the worst sin ever committed? Which generation is guilty of the most atrocious crime against God in all history?
How 'bout hounding Christ, God in the flesh, His entire life, rejecting Him, accusing Him of being Satan, charging Him with sin, having Him tortured to death, knowing He rose from the dead but sacrificing sheep anyway. That would be the generation guilty of, "...all the righteous blood shed on earth from thre blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah..."
All the Matt 24 judgements that followed would be for that generation, the worst in all history. Hitler may have killed more, but these guys killed God.

So Matt 24 starts with Christ promising the destruction of the temple, which every single person who heard that would have freaked over, and they do, asking when such a thing would take place. They already knew it would be in their generation, Matt23:36, but when would the age of animal sacrifice come to an end? Matt 24:3. To assume Christ could drop a bombshell on them like, 'hey guys, you know the temple you absolutely need to sacrifice animals & look ahead to Me in faith? The one that's been here since Solomon? Well I'm going to destroy it in this generation' and think the apostles would respond with interest in the end of the world, rather than on this news bulletin, is laughable. But anyway, here are the Matt 24 curses & stuff fulfilled.
(and all this comes from my fuzzy memories of "Last Day's Madness" by Gary DeMar)
Matt 24:4-8, false Christs: Acts 13:6-11, for one.
People coming in His name, deceiving many:books of Jude,2 Jn,2 Pe,etc, false prophets are specifically warned against in almost every book of the NT. This was a problem unique to pre AD 70 & the destruction of the temple.
Wars, rumors of wars: Read Josephus. This was the time of "Pax Romana", yet Israel was called "the plaything of Egypt & Rome" by secular historians.
more to come, I'm outta room...
 
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Toms777

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reformedfan said:
Don't get furious at me, dude, if I'm wrong God'll let me know when I'm dead, relax.

Matt 24 starts in Matt 23, with Christ ripping the Pharisees up one side & down the other. What had they done that was so horrible? Wait, what is the worst sin ever committed? Which generation is guilty of the most atrocious crime against God in all history?
How 'bout hounding Christ, God in the flesh, His entire life, rejecting Him, accusing Him of being Satan, charging Him with sin, having Him tortured to death, knowing He rose from the dead but sacrificing sheep anyway. That would be the generation guilty of, "...all the righteous blood shed on earth from thre blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah..."
All the Matt 24 judgements that followed would be for that generation, the worst in all history. Hitler may have killed more, but these guys killed God.

So Matt 24 starts with Christ promising the destruction of the temple, which every single person who heard that would have freaked over, and they do, asking when such a thing would take place. They already knew it would be in their generation, Matt23:36, but when would the age of animal sacrifice come to an end? Matt 24:3. To assume Christ could drop a bombshell on them like, 'hey guys, you know the temple you absolutely need to sacrifice animals & look ahead to Me in faith? The one that's been here since Solomon? Well I'm going to destroy it in this generation' and think the apostles would respond with interest in the end of the world, rather than on this news bulletin, is laughable. But anyway, here are the Matt 24 curses & stuff fulfilled.
(and all this comes from my fuzzy memories of "Last Day's Madness" by Gary DeMar)
Matt 24:4-8, false Christs: Acts 13:6-11, for one.
People coming in His name, deceiving many:books of Jude,2 Jn,2 Pe,etc, false prophets are specifically warned against in almost every book of the NT. This was a problem unique to pre AD 70 & the destruction of the temple.
Wars, rumors of wars: Read Josephus. This was the time of "Pax Romana", yet Israel was called "the plaything of Egypt & Rome" by secular historians.
more to come, I'm outta room...
Don't worrry about going with one man';s opinion. That man can be wrong. For example. the book of Revelation could not be fulfilled in 70AD if it was written in 96AD. that is teh first major problem. But let's look at the events that are prophecied and show me each of these historically where they happened. let's start with this verse.

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
NKJV

Show me the specifics of the historic fulfillment of this prophecy.
 
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ah_muse

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Preterism is the theory that all (or most) of the events prophesied in the New Testament (including those in Revelation) were fulfilled in the past, specifically in 70 AD. Because of their belief that New Testament prophecy has been fulfilled in the distant past, Preterists typically reject any Biblical basis for knowing when Jesus will come.

For Full Preterists, Premillennialism is impossible because they believe the second advent occurred in 70 AD and we know that no literal 1000-year reign followed. If we imagine one did, then we are now living almost 1000 years post-millennially into eternity.

For Partial Preterists, Premillenialism is possible but unlikely. For the same reasons they reject a future fulfillment of most New Testament prophecy, they are likely to reject any literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth.

The “Christian” Beast of Revelation 13, backed by “Christian” denominational and millennial perspectives that are tied to the collective ecumenical world church, will revile and spiritually justify the persecution of the true remnant of Israel — the underground Christian church that has come out of the global whorehouse of organized religion. In short, a new inquisition is dead ahead.
Preterism is the crucial theological element in a larger subset of prophetic false doctrine. The truth is, the “church” that will rule during the tribulation is Mystery Babylon and she already has the blood of the saints on her filthy hands. Thus, we would all do well to understand the enormous importance of obeying the prophetic directive that was given to us in the Word of God. “Come out of her my people, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Revelation 18:4,5)
 
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reformedfan

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The thread is, 'I'm no heathen, why do I get banished to the heathen site because the rapture isn't Biblical, only popular?'
Since when is popularity the basis of orthodoxy?
But anyway, it's not only us preterists who don't know for certain when Christ is coming back (not till the nations are discipled, that's for sure- Matt 28:18-20 wasn't Jesus idea of a joke, nor hyperbole.)
Christ said His coming in final judgement would have no warning signs attached. AD 70 must have been one instance of Christ coming in judgement, though not the final judgement. Revelation, written in AD68, says "quickly, near at hand, etc." That'd be a lie if it were 2000 years later & we're still waiting, don'tcha think?
I don't only get my ideas from one man, as you assert, but from the Bible. Secular historians as welll as the record of Scripture says all the earthquakes, famines, false prophets, etc. were fulfilled. Read Acts. The monster earthquake that set Paul free wasn't an isolated event, the early prophet prophesying a worldwide famine in Acts wasn't coincidence.
Preterists don't belong on the pagan page just cuz someone disagrees with their view of the book of Revelation, gimme a break..
 
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ah_muse

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The preterist view holds that John wrote the book of Revelation prior to the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 and was referring to events of his own day. This requires mental gymnastics that are unnecessary if one would apply the Golden Rule of Interpretation. The Roman emperors Nero or Domitian could scarely fulfill the requirements of this book for the Antichrist, much less the desecration of the temple for 42 months or for the worldwide cataclysms that are yet future.

(Golden Rule of Interpretation: When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate text, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, clearly indicate otherwise.)
 
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Suede

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Hey Tom777,

I'll take a simple stab at some of these questions you asked.

+++Matt 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.+++

This is in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. One needs to read the Wars of the Jews by Josepheus to understand the utter horrors of this event and what it signified. Read Luke's account about signs of the end, chapter 21. Jesus flat out tells the disciples that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, they will know the end is near. In Luke 21 verse 32 Jesus plainly says that this present generation would not pass until all things had happened. This of course was the first century generation, which has passed of course which in turn means that the "End" has as well.

+++22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.+++

The Shortening of days. It's actually interesting that one of the Apostles plainly told his laity that this had happened.

1 Corinthians 7:29 "But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;"

Notice the sense of urgency here, and in the surrounding verses. Something is going to be happening soon, something that Paul is instructing people to not get married. What could he be speaking of? No doubt he knew the horrors that would be coming upon the people of the 1st century.

I would recommend for a change that when you read the New Testament, read it with the understanding that the 1st Century Christians would have understood it. We as Christians must bear in mind that though the New Testament was written for us, it was not written to us. Though Preterism is odd at first, that's no reason to give it a honest chance.

“All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed, Second it is violently opposed, and Third it is accepted as self-evident.” Arthur Schopenhauer. Take care

SUEDE

"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)


 
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Toms777

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Suede said:
Hey Tom777,

I'll take a simple stab at some of these questions you asked.

+++Matt 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.+++
For this to be true, then you would have to tell me that the tribulation of the destruction of Jersualem (and yes I have read Josephus from end to end) is worse than the entire holocaust that was initiated under Hitler, and the massacre of 1-2 million Cambodians under Pol Pot.

Having studied the events of the holocaust under Hitler and having watched events through the news unfold in Cambodia under Pol Pot, and having read Josephus from end to end and the area regarding the destruction of Jersalem a number of times, I cannot see any possible way to justify such a position.

This is the second major problem with preterism.

Suede said:
Read Luke's account about signs of the end, chapter 21. Jesus flat out tells the disciples that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, they will know the end is near. In Luke 21 verse 32 Jesus plainly says that this present generation would not pass until all things had happened. This of course was the first century generation, which has passed of course which in turn means that the "End" has as well.
Luke 21 is not a good reference for preterists, because that brings up some additional questions that need to be answered. For insatnce, where did the following events occur which also occur at the time of which Jesus speaks?

Luke 21:25-28
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
NKJV

Suede said:
+++22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.+++

The Shortening of days. It's actually interesting that one of the Apostles plainly told his laity that this had happened.

1 Corinthians 7:29 "But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;"

Notice the sense of urgency here, and in the surrounding verses. Something is going to be happening soon, something that Paul is instructing people to not get married. What could he be speaking of? No doubt he knew the horrors that would be coming upon the people of the 1st century.
Things such as this must be read in context. What is the topic of Paul's discussion inthis chapter?

1 Cor 7:1-3
7:1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
NKJV

It is about relationships. The specidfic subsection is, as Paul puts it, about virgins.

1 Cor 7:25
25 Now concerning virgins:
NKJV

And yes, Paul senses an urgency regarding the gospel, our time on earth here is indeed short, but if you try to claim that the topic has changed from a discussion of relationships to a discussion of prophecy because a similar phrase has been used even though the context is unrelated, then I would suggest that you are off track.
 
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reformedfan

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Again, though Hitler was bad, killing Christ was worse. Rejecting & killing Christ, knowing He rose from the dead like Psalm 16 said He would, and continuing on in unbelief & worse- continuing to sacrifice animals, made the temple an abomination. Read Lev. 14, on cleansing leprous houses. Christ, the high priest checked out His Dad's house, upon Daddy's orders (Lev.14:35); and found it leprous (Jn 2 Lev.14:36-38); He reexamines it (Lev. 14:39, Mark 11); He replaces the leprous stones with living stones, I mean Nicodemus convert, so do other Pharisees, like Paul, Jn. 3, Acts 9 etc.; but the leprosy spreads, see the stoning of Stephen, the dispersion of the Christian Jews, most of the New Test. is written to encourage believers not to look ahead to some fake rapture, but to soldier on & die for Christ if that's what God was calling them to do. Anyway, back to God's leprous temple. (This is Spiritual leprosy, by the way, in case you haven't guessed as much.) He then fulfills Lev. 14:43-47, warns everyone He was going to destroy His Dad's house, (Matt 24) warns His true believers what would happen if they didn't pay atten to the signs & beat it when they saw Nero's army sticking some kind of pagan idol in the temple area. Just like the entire Bible, those who obeyed in faith fled when the 'abomination of desolation' went up- a statue of Nero that the Roman soldiers then sacrificed pigs to), those who hardened their hearts stayed, and Deut. 28, the section on the curses for disobedience came literally true for the unbelievers who died fighting off the entire Roman army, crying out to God to save them. Josephus writes of parents eating their kids because the seige was so great, and unbelievable, horrific, etc. acts done to those who dared defy Nero & co. Nero, dude! Y'know, stick a Christian in a wax shirt & light him on fire to illuminate his dinner parties? His martyring Christians was unprovoked by violence. How much worse do you think he'd torture & mutilate etc those who defied him with weapons?. Again, out of all the sins in history, these unbelieving Jews of this generation were guilty of such a heinous one that they are jealous of Hitler's hell. They killed Christ, dude. God destroyed the age of animal sacrifice by destroying the temple. Judgement.
But anyway, why are preterist banished to the Pagan page?
Since when is what's popular what's orthodox?
I protest in vain. To the anti Trinitarians & Mormons I must peddle my thoughts, I'm banished to heathen land. (Glad I have company, thanx!)
 
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reformedfan

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I forgot, no way John wrote Revelation in AD96, how old d'ya think he was when he wrote it? AD 68, Christ warns His coming in juddement was near at hand, cuz over 20 yrs had gone by & nothing. Again, the urgency,
'pay atten guys! Be ready to bolt!' the 2 yrs later the destruction of the temple.
Yup, glad I have nothing to worry about but obeying the grt. commish, knowing Matt 24 & most of Revelation has been fulfilled, whew!
 
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Toms777

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reformedfan said:
Again, though Hitler was bad, killing Christ was worse.
This is not what we are discussing. Christ was not killed in 70 Ad. This, according to preterism refers to 70 AD.

reformedfan said:
Josephus writes of parents eating their kids because the seige was so great, and unbelievable, horrific, etc. acts done to those who dared defy Nero & co. Nero, dude! Y'know, stick a Christian in a wax shirt & light him on fire to illuminate his dinner parties? His martyring Christians was unprovoked by violence. How much worse do you think he'd torture & mutilate etc those who defied him with weapons?.
Have you ever read about the atrocities committed during the Pol Pot regime? In the concetration camps? No one says that what happened was not bad, but according to scripture, the event spoke of here would be the worst in all of history, before and after.

You have not shown that to be the case.

reformedfan said:
Again, out of all the sins in history, these unbelieving Jews of this generation were guilty of such a heinous one that they are jealous of Hitler's hell. They killed Christ, dude. God destroyed the age of animal sacrifice by destroying the temple. Judgement.
But anyway, why are preterist banished to the Pagan page?
Since when is what's popular what's orthodox?
I protest in vain. To the anti Trinitarians & Mormons I must peddle my thoughts, I'm banished to heathen land. (Glad I have company, thanx!)
This prophecy is not speaking of sin...again, you are way off the context of the topic.

Further, if the sin of killing Christ was the issue, then it was the gentiles (Romans), not the Jews who killed Christ.

Christ died because of the sins of each one of us, including you. You are just as guilty and just as deserving of being found guilty of that sin as the Jews in 70 AD.
 
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reformedfan said:
I forgot, no way John wrote Revelation in AD96, how old d'ya think he was when he wrote it? AD 68, Christ warns His coming in juddement was near at hand, cuz over 20 yrs had gone by & nothing. Again, the urgency,
'pay atten guys! Be ready to bolt!' the 2 yrs later the destruction of the temple.
Yup, glad I have nothing to worry about but obeying the grt. commish, knowing Matt 24 & most of Revelation has been fulfilled, whew!
Yes, he would have been old, but not out of the normal range for human life.

Again, you have not shown anything which would suggest that the book was not written when Iraeneus said that it was written.
 
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Suede

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Hey Tom777,





++++For this to be true, then you would have to tell me that the tribulation of the destruction of Jersualem (and yes I have read Josephus from end to end) is worse than the entire holocaust that was initiated under Hitler, and the massacre of 1-2 million Cambodians under Pol Pot.+++



Subjective at best. You’re assuming that Christ is merely talking about body counts, he doesn’t mention this at all.



++++This is the second major problem with preterism.

Luke 21 is not a good reference for preterists, because that brings up some additional questions that need to be answered. For insatnce, where did the following events occur which also occur at the time of which Jesus speaks?+++



Actually it is, however in typical Futurist fashion you have not addressed anything that was brought up. In Luke 21 Christ is telling the Disciples that it is THEM that will see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, not us. What do you make of that? Also, what do you make of Christ’s closing statement which is that that present generation wouldn’t pass until those things had happened?

+++Luke 21:25-28
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."+++



This further proves Preterism. Look at 28 which reads, Lift up YOUR heads, because YOUR redemption draws near. Who are the “your”. It’s the first century dicisples that’s who.



Now, what is the Futurist take on this verse,



"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)



+++Things such as this must be read in context. What is the topic of Paul's discussion in this chapter?

1 Cor 7:1-37:1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
NKJV
It is about relationships. The specific subsection is, as Paul puts it, about virgins.
1 Cor 7:25
25 Now concerning virgins:+++




One, I do agree that this chapter is about relationships, most Bibles title it as Marriage. Marriage is ordained by God, so one must question why Paul is telling people NOT to get married. Verse 25 has no bearing on verse 29, here is the entire verse,



25 “Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.



Ok, now Paul is going to say something very, very interesting.



26 “Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are.”



Ok, two things here. One, Paul is noting a present crisis. Interesting indeed. Two he urging virgins to reman that way because of it. This is also closing out the issue concerning Virgins. Note verse 27



27 “Are you married?”



Paul has gone onto something new, he is no longer dealing with virgins here, which means your context/subsection angle isn’t apt here. Verse 29, is in itself a new idea as well. Paul plainly tells them that the time has been shortened, just like Christ said it was going to be.


Take care,



SUEDE
“These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)
 
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Toms777

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Suede said:
Subjective at best. You’re assuming that Christ is merely talking about body counts, he doesn’t mention this at all.
Actually, you're assuming that I am assuming that. Don't assume.
I did not assume hat at all. I was actually thinking of the types of atrocities. Now, the suggestion was made here that the ating of babies was an example of a serious atrocity (which it is), but the Bible says that what would happen would be worse that anything that happened before or afterward. Yet such atrocities occurred in OT, for instance 2 King 6:24-30. And much worse happened during Hitler, Pol Pot and I might add, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

So you still have not addressed this point adequately.

Suede said:
Actually it is, however in typical Futurist fashion you have not addressed anything that was brought up. In Luke 21 Christ is telling the Disciples that it is THEM that will see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, not us. What do you make of that? Also, what do you make of Christ’s closing statement which is that that present generation wouldn’t pass until those things had happened?

+++Luke 21:25-28
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."+++
I am still waiting for you to show me where the signs in the sun, moon, the distress of nations, etc., etc., were fulfilled historically. If these were not fulfilled in 70 AD, then that was not the fulfillment. You see, Jerusalem has been surrounded numerous times historically, so you cannot take one and turn it into what you want when it does not fir the context of scripture.

"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
Why don't you tell me what the problem is that you see with it?

26 “Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are.”
Ok, two things here. One, Paul is noting a present crisis. Interesting indeed. Two he urging virgins to reman that way because of it. This is also closing out the issue concerning Virgins. Note verse 27
27 “Are you married?”
Paul has gone onto something new, he is no longer dealing with virgins here, which means your context/subsection angle isn’t apt here. Verse 29, is in itself a new idea as well. Paul plainly tells them that the time has been shortened, just like Christ said it was going to be.
Actually, he says time is short, and there have been numerous crisis', we see them all the time, so you cannot assume the what the crisis is. There is absolutely nothing to relate this to the end. You are pulling this entirely out of context.

Now let's deal with one issue at a time before we turn each message into an essay.
 
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Suede

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Tom777





++++I did not assume that at all. I was actually thinking of the types of atrocities. Now, the suggestion was made here that the eating of babies was an example of a serious atrocity (which it is), but the Bible says that what would happen would be worse that anything that happened before or afterward. Yet such atrocities occurred in OT, for instance 2 King 6:24-30. And much worse happened during Hitler, Pol Pot and I might add, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.+++



But you are still trying to place subjective qualifiers to disprove Preterism. Subjective is not objective and has little if any real authority. Hitler, Pol Pot; this sounds like a numbers game again. What makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki more of an atrocity? Because they were burned up by nuclear heat? So? How is that objectively more of an atrocity. I recommend you don’t use this as a platform and stick with more Biblically objective things, such as the time indicators in the Bible.

+++I am still waiting for you to show me where the signs in the sun, moon, the distress of nations, etc., etc., were fulfilled historically.+++




This is known as prophetic language, something the Bible is FULL of. People eating scrolls, dragons coming out of the earth, giant harlots riding beasts. This hard for us in modern times to grasp, but the Jewish Disciples listening would have understood it. Let’s look at a very similar prophecy made by Isaiah about Babylon. Now, we need to note that this has already happened, let’s look at what Isaiah wrote.



Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.



Did any of this stuff really, literally happen? No. It’s prophetic language that is quite poetic and extremely symbolic. What of Daniel and his Four beasts? Are those actually beasts? No, they are symbolic of kingdoms. But all is not completely lost, Josephus does report a long tailed comet over Jerusalem at the time of her destruction.



+++You see, Jerusalem has been surrounded numerous times historically, so you cannot take one and turn it into what you want when it does not firm the context of scripture.+++



This is true. However Christ did give us a qualifier, that is he is telling the 1st Century dicisple that THEY would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies when the end had come. Them, not us or some other future generation. That’s the difference.



+++"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)



Why don't you tell me what the problem is that you see with it?+++



Actually, I don’t have a problem with it, I’m the Preterist here. The issue is Christ is telling his 1st century apostles that THEY will not be able to go through all the cities of Israel until Christ comes back. Here’s some other time indicators that are objectively firm.



"What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders of the 1st century] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)



+++Now let's deal with one issue at a time before we turn each message into an essay.+++



Cool, that's fine with me. Take care,

SUEDE
 
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ah_muse

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The futuristic view accepts the book of Revelation as prophecy that primarily is yet to be fulfilled, particularly from chapter 4 on. This was the interpretation of the early church during its most evangelistic history, from the apostles until the fourth century. Today it is the accepted position by most premillennial Bible teachers.

A safe rule to follow in the study of the book of Revelation is to accept the book as literal unless the facts are obviously to the contrary. A blessing is offered to those who read, hear, and keep the words of this book.
 
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