Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[DavidPT]

I guess I’m confused by this. It seems like the only difference between Antiochus’ AOD and the Roman armies AOD is location. Antiochus put an idol on the alter and made a sacrifice there. The Roman armies places their standards (which were idols) and sacrificed near the eastern gate of the temple. However, both occurred in the temple complex.

can it only occur on the alter to be considered an AOD?

But did God view that as AOD? Is that why God allowed to have the city and temple destroyed bacause the Romans did all of that by the eastern gate? And had they not done that, God would have spared the city and temple the destruction that came upon it? The point I'm trying to make is this. As soon as Christ died and rose, this 2nd temple was obsolete at this point. Maybe not to the unbelieving Jews at the time, but to God it was. Therefore, as if it matters that an alleged AOD is taking place on the temple grounds, a temple that God has already decided to have destroyed, a temple that is no longer relevant once Christ died and rose. Who would care what the Romans did on that site at the time? The place was going to be destroyed regardless, and it was destroyed. It would be like, if someone committed some form of an AOD in a Jehovah Witness' Kingdom Hall. Who would care? It's not like that place is holy or something to begin with.

And the same with some of these Futurists around here who insist a 3rd temple will be built, animal sacrificing will resume, then the AC will cause an AOD to take place in it, thus animal sacrificing stopping yet again. Who would care? Would God care? It's not like this 3rd temple, assuming one were built, that it is holy to God or something. The whole ordeal would be an abomination from the get go.

Though, I too am a futurist, in regards to the 70th week, or at least the last half of it, none of that is meaning in a literal sense. A literal sense is not the only way prophecies recorded in the OT, such as the book of Daniel, are fulfilled.

 

[keras]

And the same with some of these Dispensational Futurists around here who insist a 3rd temple will be built, animal sacrificing will resume

We don't have to be labelled as a d/f to believe in the Third Temple. Just to read and understand the many plain prophesies which say there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem and how the Glory of God will reside in it. Ezekiel 43:1-4
Spiritualizing any prophecy that can be literally fulfilled, is error and is only done to promote a false agenda.

As for the preterist idea of the Romans having fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 9:27, that is such an obvious and devious untruth.
I re-read Chapter 26 of the Jewish War, by Josephus: The Destruction of the Temple and the City.
There is no mention of the Romans making any kind of sacrifices for their victory.
Ref; W V1 403, says: When the Romans conquered the City, they planted their Standards on the towers of Jerusalem's walls, in jubilation over their victory.

 

[eclipsenow]

No beast, AOD, worldwide trib.

Circular much? Futurists have a bunch of modern items from modern culture they want to check-off in their futurist requirements - from all over the place - and so when they approach the Olivet Discourse they read their modern day assumptions from largely modern futurist culture all over the original text to redefine what the text is saying, and then fail those texts by not meeting the demands of modern futurist culture.
How about trying it the other way around? Where does the Olivet discourse say anything about a completely global one-world government? Why does the AOD have to rule from the temple - and not just destroy it as Jesus said? And a dozen other checklist items - where do futurists get it from the Olivet discourse passages?
Let's try it the other way around, and read this from the lens of the gospels. Jesus had already confronted the Pharisees, declared his BODY was the temple that would be destroyed and raised again in 3 days, and wept over Jerusalem. He told THE DISCIPLES to run when THEY saw the Romans coming and Jerusalem surrounded. He said there would be a lot of false Messiahs - there were! He said don't go out into the desert to look for them - which is where we know many of these false military Messiah's gathered their militia. To make it really clear he ran a compare and contrast exercise where he compared these false militia leaders out in the desert to the day of his glorious return - which would be universal and obvious to all the nations - but then stayed on track about the destruction of Jerusalem. He said it would happen in THAT generation. It did. The temple was temporary, and would be gone within THAT GENERATION. Jesus death and resurrection would be eternal.
The temple was blasphemed and then destroyed. Hebrews says the temple and sacrificial things are 'fading away' - they knew it was all redundant because of Jesus work on the cross. And it was destroyed within the 40 years. Done and dusted. Olivet fulfilled.
That's what Jesus is talking about in the gospels. Importing other end-times verses over this is not required by the passage itself! EG: John said there would be many antiChrists - anyone that denies that Jesus was the incarnate God-man and denies the gospel is an antiChrist. I see no need for a world-wide government or anything like that. I also don't understand the paranoia about a global government? The Roman empire was pretty much world-wide back then - the world of immediate concern to the biblical authors - and I think fulfilled Daniel's prophecies. I personally would welcome worldwide GLOBAL democracy. Imagine being able to vote on global matters? Instead they are deals done behind closed doors. Yeah - democratic deficit much? Yet a futurist paranoia against global democratic mechanisms is one of the reasons many Christians won't work for better international frameworks. I think it's one of the saddest side-effects of futurism.

 

[Jipsah]

Nothing to do with the AOD, if they actually did such a hing.

Right. Temple's still there too, right?

Hint: the Jews are planning a new temple, whether you'll admit it or not.

Unfortunately no one told the Jews. You better get 'em on the line and let them know so they can turn to. Hop to it, your "generation" only has, what, another 100 years to go? Or have y'all extended it again?

The Temple is still there, sacrifice never stopped. Jerusalem was never surrounded by armies, or sacked. So says your doctrine. 2000-odd years after the movie and you lot are still picking your seats. Maybe just a few more 100-year-long "generations"... <LAFF>

So it's all already happened, eh?

Yep, all that I mentioned. It's called history, matey. Amazing stuff, you ought to read some one of these days. Nah, your doctrine couldn't stand it, better leave the histoire alone. <LAFF>

 

[Jipsah]

Nice try, Sir, but like all attempts to justify preterism, this'n goes "POOF!"

Yep, Temple's still there. Gotta be, else your thunk-up-by-hand doctrine is rubbish.

There were lots of prophesied events that didn't happen then.

Could be. But your doctrine-of-men hyper futurist forces to deny anything our Lord foretold everhappened at all. That is further rubbish, in steamship loads.

No beast

"666", Neron Kaiser. "Oh, he didn't count!" Right, that's your mantra.

AOD

Temple sacked, not one stone left on another, Roman troops offer pagan sacrifices in the remains of the Holy of Holies. "Oh, that didn't count!" Right, that's your mantra.

The destruction of J & the temple were the culmination of the "days of vengeance" pronounced by Jesus upon that genration of Jews.

And foretold by our Lord to His disciples in His Olivet Discourse. "Oh, that didn't count!" Right, that's your mantra.

How many more century long generations before you lot have to pack it up and and joint the Millerites and Jehovah's Witnesses and such in admitting, at least to yourselves, that your deadline has come and gone and you start doing damage control? How long is that"generation" from the founding of the modern state of Israel gonna last? And when it's sinally over, where do you head then? The standard con is to spiritualize it, and say that it happened in Heaven and only the unco spiritual realize it. But whatever you're gonna do, you better have a plan in place, because ut isn't gonna be that long until your last alibi is shot, and you have to own the fact that it was all man-made smoke and mirrors.

 

[claninja]

The point I'm trying to make is this. As soon as Christ died and rose, this 2nd temple was obsolete at this point. Maybe not to the unbelieving Jews at the time, but to God it was. Therefore, as if it matters that an alleged AOD is taking place on the temple grounds, a temple that God has already decided to have destroyed, a temple that is no longer relevant once Christ died and rose. Who would care what the Romans did on that site at the time?

And this is why audience relevance is so important.

Of course, you, Davidpt, 2,000 years removed wouldn’t care because the time had already passed where we no longer worship solely in Jerusalem, but by spirit and in truth.

However, Jewish BELIEVERS, 2,000 years ago, while the temple still stood, were still very zealous for the law. (Audience relevance)

acts 21:21-22 When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

for you, Davidpt, 2,000 years later, what would it matter if your flight was on a sabbath or not? It wouldn’t. But to those BELIEVING jews, who were still zealous for the law, it would have been very relevant for them 2,000 years ago when the temple still stood.

matthew 24:20 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath.

 

[DavidPT]

We don't have to be labelled as a d/f to believe in the Third Temple. .

Point acknowledged. Therefore, I will go back to that post and remove the part about Dispensational since that can't be applied to everyone that believes a 3rd temple will be built. Clearly, Dispensational can't be applied to you, and I agree that it can't, regardless that you too believe a 3rd temple will be built.

For an abomination to take place in a temple, and for it to make sense and matter, especially matter to God, the temple has to be holy. As to the 2nd temple it was no longer holy once Christ died and rose. As to an alleged rebuilt 3rd one, it would never be holy to begin with, therefore, assuming one were built and that an AOD took place in it, it would be pointless and no different than an AOD occurring in a JW Kingdom Hall.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

This tells us which temple is now holy, except this is not referring to a literal temple. Therefore, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for example, is not involving a literal temple. That passage has to be interpreted spiritually not literally. Nowhere in that entire chapter does it even mention Jerusalem. It mentions a falling away, it mentions God sending strong delusion, that one should believe a lie, it mentions satan with all power and lying wonders, where none of these have any relevance to the literal city Jerusalem and a literal temple there. But let's just ignore all of that, and since 2 Thessalonians 2:4 mentions the temple of God, it has to be meaning a literal brick and mortar temple in Jerusalem. No it doesn't if no other context in that chapter supports that.

 

[keras]

This tells us which temple is now holy, except this is not referring to a literal temple. Therefore, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for example, is not involving a literal temple. That passage has to be interpreted spiritually not literally. Nowhere in that entire chapter does it even mention Jerusalem. It mentions a falling away, it mentions God sending strong delusion, that one should believe a lie, it mentions satan with all power and lying wonders, where none of these have any relevance to the literal city Jerusalem and a literal temple there. But let's just ignore all of that, and since 2 Thessalonians 2:4 mentions the temple of God, it has to be meaning a literal brick and mortar temple in Jerusalem. No it doesn't if no other context in that chapter supports that.

A new physical Temple is Prophesied:
Haggai 2:6-9 In a little while, I shall shake the heavens, the earth, the sea and all the nations. I will fill this House with their treasures. This latter House will be greater than former. In this place, I shall grant prosperity and peace.
[The Second Temple was not greater than Solomon’s Temple]

Zechariah 1:16-17 These are the words of the Lord; I have returned to Jerusalem with compassion, My House is to be rebuilt there. My cities will again brim with prosperity, once again the Lord will comfort Zion and make Jerusalem the city of His choice.

2 Thess 2:3-4 The Return of Jesus cannot come until the man doomed to destruction is revealed and enthrones himself in God’s Temple, claiming to be God.
[What could be clearer than that? The Temple must be rebuilt before the Tribulation.]

Daniel 9:27....He will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings, then will set up an abomination in the Holy place.

Malachi 3:1 I am about to send My messenger to clear a path before Me. Suddenly, the Lord, whom you seek, will come into His Temple. The messenger of the Covenant, whom you desire, will come to you.
And Ezekiel 40 to 46 describes in detail the construction and operation of the new Temple. Ezekiel 43:1-4 tells us the Glory of God will come into and reside in that Temple.

 

[robycop3]

I guess I’m confused by this. It seems like the only difference between Antiochus’ AOD and the Roman armies AOD is location. Antiochus put an idol on the alter and made a sacrifice there. The Roman armies places their standards (which were idols) and sacrificed near the eastern gate of the temple. However, both occurred in the temple complex.

can it only occur on the alter to be considered an AOD?

There should be no conusion. TH ROMAN DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WAS NOT THE AOD. That event will be when the beast/antichrist enters the nemple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & proclaims himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 13)

 

[robycop3]

Circular much? Futurists have a bunch of modern items from modern culture they want to check-off in their futurist requirements - from all over the place - and so when they approach the Olivet Discourse they read their modern day assumptions from largely modern futurist culture all over the original text to redefine what the text is saying, and then fail those texts by not meeting the demands of modern futurist culture.
How about trying it the other way around? Where does the Olivet discourse say anything about a completely global one-world government? Why does the AOD have to rule from the temple - and not just destroy it as Jesus said? And a dozen other checklist items - where do futurists get it from the Olivet discourse passages?
Let's try it the other way around, and read this from the lens of the gospels. Jesus had already confronted the Pharisees, declared his BODY was the temple that would be destroyed and raised again in 3 days, and wept over Jerusalem. He told THE DISCIPLES to run when THEY saw the Romans coming and Jerusalem surrounded. He said there would be a lot of false Messiahs - there were! He said don't go out into the desert to look for them - which is where we know many of these false military Messiah's gathered their militia. To make it really clear he ran a compare and contrast exercise where he compared these false militia leaders out in the desert to the day of his glorious return - which would be universal and obvious to all the nations - but then stayed on track about the destruction of Jerusalem. He said it would happen in THAT generation. It did. The temple was temporary, and would be gone within THAT GENERATION. Jesus death and resurrection would be eternal.
The temple was blasphemed and then destroyed. Hebrews says the temple and sacrificial things are 'fading away' - they knew it was all redundant because of Jesus work on the cross. And it was destroyed within the 40 years. Done and dusted. Olivet fulfilled.
That's what Jesus is talking about in the gospels. Importing other end-times verses over this is not required by the passage itself! EG: John said there would be many antiChrists - anyone that denies that Jesus was the incarnate God-man and denies the gospel is an antiChrist. I see no need for a world-wide government or anything like that. I also don't understand the paranoia about a global government? The Roman empire was pretty much world-wide back then - the world of immediate concern to the biblical authors - and I think fulfilled Daniel's prophecies. I personally would welcome worldwide GLOBAL democracy. Imagine being able to vote on global matters? Instead they are deals done behind closed doors. Yeah - democratic deficit much? Yet a futurist paranoia against global democratic mechanisms is one of the reasons many Christians won't work for better international frameworks. I think it's one of the saddest side-effects of futurism.

Circular much? Futurists have a bunch of modern items from modern culture they want to check-off in their futurist requirements - from all over the place - and so when they approach the Olivet Discourse they read their modern day assumptions from largely modern futurist culture all over the original text to redefine what the text is saying, and then fail those texts by not meeting the demands of modern futurist culture.
How about trying it the other way around? Where does the Olivet discourse say anything about a completely global one-world government? Why does the AOD have to rule from the temple - and not just destroy it as Jesus said? And a dozen other checklist items - where do futurists get it from the Olivet discourse passages?
Let's try it the other way around, and read this from the lens of the gospels. Jesus had already confronted the Pharisees, declared his BODY was the temple that would be destroyed and raised again in 3 days, and wept over Jerusalem. He told THE DISCIPLES to run when THEY saw the Romans coming and Jerusalem surrounded. He said there would be a lot of false Messiahs - there were! He said don't go out into the desert to look for them - which is where we know many of these false military Messiah's gathered their militia. To make it really clear he ran a compare and contrast exercise where he compared these false militia leaders out in the desert to the day of his glorious return - which would be universal and obvious to all the nations - but then stayed on track about the destruction of Jerusalem. He said it would happen in THAT generation. It did. The temple was temporary, and would be gone within THAT GENERATION. Jesus death and resurrection would be eternal.
The temple was blasphemed and then destroyed. Hebrews says the temple and sacrificial things are 'fading away' - they knew it was all redundant because of Jesus work on the cross. And it was destroyed within the 40 years. Done and dusted. Olivet fulfilled.
That's what Jesus is talking about in the gospels. Importing other end-times verses over this is not required by the passage itself! EG: John said there would be many antiChrists - anyone that denies that Jesus was the incarnate God-man and denies the gospel is an antiChrist. I see no need for a world-wide government or anything like that. I also don't understand the paranoia about a global government? The Roman empire was pretty much world-wide back then - the world of immediate concern to the biblical authors - and I think fulfilled Daniel's prophecies. I personally would welcome worldwide GLOBAL democracy. Imagine being able to vote on global matters? Instead they are deals done behind closed doors. Yeah - democratic deficit much? Yet a futurist paranoia against global democratic mechanisms is one of the reasons many Christians won't work for better international frameworks. I think it's one of the saddest side-effects of futurism.

Newp ! No AOD, beast, great trib, return of Jesus.

 

[robycop3]

Right. Temple's still there too, right?

Unfortunately no one told the Jews. You better get 'em on the line and let them know so they can turn to. Hop to it, your "generation" only has, what, another 100 years to go? Or have y'all extended it again?

I believe you need to talk with some Jews & Google "new temple in Jerusalem".

The Temple is still there, sacrifice never stopped. Jerusalem was never surrounded by armies, or sacked. So says your doctrine. 2000-odd years after the movie and you lot are still picking your seats. Maybe just a few more 100-year-long "generations"... <LAFF>

Yep, all that I mentioned. It's called history, matey. Amazing stuff, you ought to read some one of these days. Nah, your doctrine couldn't stand it, better leave the histoire alone. <LAFF>

Then please tell me who the beast was, what the mark of the beast looked like, who the false prophet was, when the worldwide great trib occurred, etc.

 

[claninja]

There should be no conusion. TH ROMAN DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WAS NOT THE AOD. That event will be when the beast/antichrist enters the nemple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & proclaims himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 13)

huh? I thought you said the AOD will be similar To antiochus’ day where he sacrificed to an idol with a pig inside the temple complex? The Romans sacrificed to standards (which were idols) inside the temple complex. That would be very similar.

now, your saying the AOD is the man of sin sitting in the “naos” of a new temple, which is not like and idol being sacrificed in the temple complex? I also can’t find where the NT says a new future temple building will be built? Lots of confusion here still

 

[eclipsenow]

There should be no conusion. TH ROMAN DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WAS NOT THE AOD.

It was. There are 2 things asked. The disciples seem to think it is one and the same - as the end of THAT temple MUST be the end of the age, right? THAT temple - that they're looking at with their own physical eyeballs and pointing out to Jesus! Now if you can find a verse about a hypothetical THIRD temple referenced here in Matthew 24, please do tell!? Show us? I need to be corrected if it is there.

But I can only see THAT temple - "These things" I'm putting in blue.


Matthew 24
"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”"

Jesus is telling them they should KNOW the temple is about to be destroyed because he is there! He is going to die. He is going to END the temple system!

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

When Jesus quotes the Daniel verse - he's saying that it will be like Antiochus - it will be an event SO BAD it makes the temple unclean! Some say that's even a reference to Jesus own death!

Then the Romans came in AD 70 and tore every temple stone down.

Sorry - but what have the following verses got to do with Matthew 24?

That event will be when the beast/antichrist enters the nemple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & proclaims himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 13)

 

[keras]

The Romans sacrificed to standards (which were idols) inside the temple complex.

This is untrue.
Josephus said the Romans set up their standards on the towers of the city walls. Ref: Wars of the Jews
The temple ruins were scavenged by the soldiers for every bit of gold, they even ripped up the floor paving slabs.

I also can’t find where the NT says a new future temple building will be built?

Try looking at Revelation 11:1, Paul refers to the new Temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Why is what God wanted in the past, not to your liking for the future?
Jesus will Return to the Mt of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, but He cannot stay there; it splits apart!
Zechariah 14:16-21 make it clear; He will reside in the new Temple.

 

[claninja]

This is untrue.
Josephus said the Romans set up their standards on the towers of the city walls. Ref: Wars of the Jews
The temple ruins were scavenged by the soldiers for every bit of gold, they even ripped up the floor paving slabs.

Wrong. Josephus records they brought their ensigns to the temple and sacrificed to them against its eastern gate.

“And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, (18)and set them over-against its eastern gate. And there did they offer sacrifices to them: and there did they make Titus Imperator” - wars of the Jews 6.6.1

Try looking at Revelation 11:1, Paul refers to the new Temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Why is what God wanted in the past, not to your liking for the future?
Jesus will Return to the Mt of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, but He cannot stay there; it splits apart!
Zechariah 14:16-21 make it clear; He will reside in the new Temple.

No mention of a rebuilding of a temple in the NT passages you provided. Try again.

 

[keras]

Wrong. Josephus records they brought their ensigns to the temple and sacrificed to them against its eastern gate.

That act did not fulfil Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus will Return to it and reign from it. Zechariah 14:16-21

 

[Jipsah]

Newp ! No AOD, beast, great trib, return of Jesus.

Jerusalem "compassed about by armies", check. Temple destroyed, check. Holy of Holies left desolate by the abominable act of making pagan sacrifice there, check. Sacrifice ceased, check. Horrors inflicted on the people of Jerusalem worse than anything that had ever been seen, check. The Beast of Revelation? Nero; the people to whom the letter was written, i.e., "had wisdom" knew that,check. Mark of the Beast? THe chit showing that you'd made the mandatory sacrifice to the emperor, check. Hyoer Futurists say, "None of tht counts".

Handy way of erasing inconvenient history, but utterly dishonest.

 

[Jipsah]

There should be no conusion. TH ROMAN DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WAS NOT THE AOD.

Can't be, that would ruin your made-up doctrine.

That event will be when the beast/antichrist enters the nemple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & proclaims himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 13)

Nah, I'll just claim that none of that counted and your doctrine will still be rubbish. <Laugh>

 

[Jipsah]

That act did not fulfil Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus will Return to it and reign from it. Zechariah 14:16-21

Nah.

 

[Jipsah]

Wrong. Josephus records they brought their ensigns to the temple and sacrificed to them against its eastern gate.

“And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, (18)and set them over-against its eastern gate. And there did they offer sacrifices to them: and there did they make Titus Imperator” - wars of the Jews 6.6.1

Pagan sacrifice in the Holy place, just as perpetrated by Antiochius, just as our Lord told His followers. Check.

HFs will all chant "Doesn't count, doesn't count!