Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[Jeffwhosoever]

Just do a search of Christian growth in the world. Then consider the following parable of when it started and where it's at now.
Matthew 13:31He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man planted in his field. 32Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

The church of Jesus Christ is not a weak and dying church that Satan is just to strong for and needs to be rescued, but it is this church of the king of kings and lord of lords:

Ephesians 3:20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Wherever there are generations, there is life and death in the flesh.

Christians Decreasing As More U.S. Adults Not Affiliated With Any Religion, Study Shows

Religion’s Sudden Decline, Revisited | Center for Political Studies

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/03/29/church-membership-fallen-below-majority/

'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe

Christians Declined Slightly as Percent of Global Population - Word&Way

I'm not saying the Gospel is failing, but instead, man is failing the Gospel, which is pointing to the end of time. This view does not contradict the power of the Gospel, which 100 years ago was much truer that it seems today, and the world is a different place because of the Gospel, so I don't think these end time events in any way diminish the power of the Gospel. Man is just increasingly turning away from the Gospel into false religions and no religion at all, which we were told would happen at the end by the Lord in the Olivet Discourse. With things going on, I can't see the end being much further away either. The US is increasingly accepting immoral things that the Scripture deems evil.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

He will come in the same manner-descending to earth, just as He was taken from the earth.. He will be seen, of course, with the clouds behind Him, just as they were in fronta Him when He left.

You have no scripture that actually shows a bodily return to the earth. Daniel's prophecy of the ascension doesn't say coming from the earth,
it says:
7:13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,
and I saw One like the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence.14And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship,
that the people of every nation and language
should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one
that will never be destroyed.

Here is the everlasting dominion that was given Him. It covers both ages.

Ephesians 3: 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I was reading some rationale for the preterist view and came across Acts 2:5. As a Futurist, this troubles me a bit because it does suggest the Gospel was preached to all nations at Pentecost or does "all nations" mean only the Jewish people from all nations? However, I am a bit concerned about this. Did the Gospel reach China, Australia, Africa, North and South America, and all of Europe by AD 70, or does preterism accept the idea that the gospel has not been taught yet to all nations? I'm reading the book "3 views of the Millenium" because I'm still considering all 3 views, despite my Futurist background. I want to know my view is the best, and it's only prudent to really consider the alternatives to ensure one is right. I may start a new thread on this book I'm reading to learn more. What is shockingly absent in this book "Three Views on the Millenium and Beyond" is that in the Postmillennial and Amillenial views, there is scant mention of the Olivet Discourse and the only mention of Revelation is in chapter 20, but that is a topic for a new thread.

Adding the verse before and after Acts 2:5 for context: "
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

5 Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together and they were bewildered, because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Is this true? Is this where Preterism really came from? I was researching something else and came across this.
"Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation.[3][59][60] The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants,[5][6] who identified the Pope with the Antichrist."

I'm skeptical of anything I read in Wikipedia, which is why I ask is this true?

Preterism - Wikipedia.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

This seems to back it up.

"When did the preterist interpretation first arise in church history? This question poses a big problem for preterists. If the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, why is there no evidence in the early church writings that the church understood things in this way?

There is zero indication from known, extant writings that anyone understood these teachings in this way. No early church writings teach that Jesus returned in the first century.

Not until the post-Reformation period did Preterism begin to show up on the church’s radar. The first clear preterist was Spanish-Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554–1613) in his Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse.1 Hugo Grotius (1583–1645) of Holland was “the first Protestant recruit to Preterism.”2 Grotius was “extremely liberal in his religious views” and took a critical approach, called “the historical-philological method,” to interpreting Scripture.3 Grotius was ecumenical in spirit."

A History of Preterism – Israel My Glory

 

[robycop3]

You have no scripture that actually shows a bodily return to the earth. Daniel's prophecy of the ascension doesn't say coming from the earth,
it says:
7:13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,
and I saw One like the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence.14And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship,
that the people of every nation and language
should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one
that will never be destroyed.

Here is the everlasting dominion that was given Him. It covers both ages.

Ephesians 3: 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

It's common sense that He WILL be on earth. The angels who were present at His ascent said He will return in like manner. And what manner was that? He was STANDING ON THE EARTH when He began to ascend. And He will descend TO THE EARTH.
And I DO have Scripture to support that: Zech. 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

It's common sense that He WILL be on earth. The angels who were present at His ascent said He will return in like manner. And what manner was that? He was STANDING ON THE EARTH when He began to ascend. And He will descend TO THE EARTH.

The scripture does say He will descend: 1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

And I DO have Scripture to support that: Zech. 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

Zechariah prophesied the completion of the second temple which had been started by Zerubbabel and he continues to prophesy about the second temple period all the way through chapter 13 when according to your doctrine it vanishes without a trace and goes on a time travel journey into the far distant future to a third regathering and third temple which no scripture talks about. Is that about right? But right after verse four, comes verse 5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

Based on the following verses, where does the new testament say He will again come physically to the earth.
John 16:12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

 

[robycop3]

The scripture does say He will descend: 1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.


Zechariah prophesied the completion of the second temple which had been started by Zerubbabel and he continues to prophesy about the second temple period all the way through chapter 13 when according to your doctrine it vanishes without a trace and goes on a time travel journey into the far distant future to a third regathering and third temple which no scripture talks about. Is that about right? But right after verse four, comes verse 5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

Based on the following verses, where does the new testament say He will again come physically to the earth.
John 16:12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

Again, where was He when He began His ascent? He was standing on the ground, so it's common sense that if He returns in like manner that He's gonna descend to the ground.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

I was reading some rationale for the preterist view and came across Acts 2:5. As a Futurist, this troubles me a bit because it does suggest the Gospel was preached to all nations at Pentecost or does "all nations" mean only the Jewish people from all nations? However, I am a bit concerned about this. Did the Gospel reach China, Australia, Africa, North and South America, and all of Europe by AD 70, or does preterism accept the idea that the gospel has not been taught yet to all nations? I'm reading the book "3 views of the Millenium" because I'm still considering all 3 views, despite my Futurist background. I want to know my view is the best, and it's only prudent to really consider the alternatives to ensure one is right. I may start a new thread on this book I'm reading to learn more. What is shockingly absent in this book "Three Views on the Millenium and Beyond" is that in the Postmillennial and Amillenial views, there is scant mention of the Olivet Discourse and the only mention of Revelation is in chapter 20, but that is a topic for a new thread.

Adding the verse before and after Acts 2:5 for context: "
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

5 Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together and they were bewildered, because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."

There's even more:
Mark 16:
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being proclaimed all over the world.
Colossians 1:6
that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.

Psalm 19:4
their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens He has pitched a tent for the sun.
Romans 10:18
But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Again, where was He when He began His ascent? He was standing on the ground, so it's common sense that if He returns in like manner that He's gonna descend to the ground.

Again, it says "as you saw Him go into heaven" He left the ground and a cloud took Him out of their sight from there He went into heaven. Besides that, He already declared the world would "see Him NO MORE.
He already said His kingdom would not come by visible observation, and it doesn't say until. That's why there is no statement that says He's coming in the clouds of heaven and descends to the earth. How is a physical Christ going to fulfill the one Hope: Christ in you, the hope of glory?

 

[robycop3]

Again, it says "as you saw Him go into heaven" He left the ground and a cloud took Him out of their sight from there He went into heaven. Besides that, He already declared the world would "see Him NO MORE.
He already said His kingdom would not come by visible observation, and it doesn't say until. That's why there is no statement that says He's coming in the clouds of heaven and descends to the earth. How is a physical Christ going to fulfill the one Hope: Christ in you, the hope of glory?

When He went into heaven as He was seen going, He had to start from somewhere. And that start was while HE WAS STANDING ON THE GROUND. I guess you believe He will just hover in the sky without coming on down as Zech. 14:4 says.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

When He went into heaven as He was seen going, He had to start from somewhere. And that start was while HE WAS STANDING ON THE GROUND. I guess you believe He will just hover in the sky without coming on down as Zech. 14:4 says.

It is typical old testament apocalyptical language.
Micah: 1: (about 13 years before Assyria took Israel into captivity)
2Hear, O peoples, all of you;
listen, O earth, and everyone in it!
May the Lord GOD bear witness against you,
the Lord from His holy temple.3For behold, the LORD comes forth
from His dwelling place;
He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.4The mountains will melt beneath Him,
and the valleys will split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
5All this is for the transgression of Jacob
and the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the transgression of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
And what is the high place of Judah?
Is it not Jerusalem?

The verse before gives the context of verse 4. Zechariah 14: 3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle.
Joshua 10:14, Joshua 10:42; Joshua 23:3; Judges 4:15; 1 Samuel 7:10; 2 Chronicles 20:15
Deuteronomy 1:30
The LORD your God, who goes before you, will fight for you, just as you saw Him do for you in Egypt
Deuteronomy 3:22
Do not be afraid of them, for the LORD your God Himself will fight for you."
Joshua 23:10
One of you can put a thousand to flight, because the LORD your God fights for you, just as He promised. how He did it before

 

[robycop3]

It is typical old testament apocalyptical language.
Micah: 1: (about 13 years before Assyria took Israel into captivity)
2Hear, O peoples, all of you;
listen, O earth, and everyone in it!
May the Lord GOD bear witness against you,
the Lord from His holy temple.3For behold, the LORD comes forth
from His dwelling place;
He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.4The mountains will melt beneath Him,
and the valleys will split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
5All this is for the transgression of Jacob
and the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the transgression of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
And what is the high place of Judah?
Is it not Jerusalem?

The verse before gives the context of verse 4. Zechariah 14: 3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle.
Joshua 10:14, Joshua 10:42; Joshua 23:3; Judges 4:15; 1 Samuel 7:10; 2 Chronicles 20:15
Deuteronomy 1:30
The LORD your God, who goes before you, will fight for you, just as you saw Him do for you in Egypt
Deuteronomy 3:22
Do not be afraid of them, for the LORD your God Himself will fight for you."
Joshua 23:10
One of you can put a thousand to flight, because the LORD your God fights for you, just as He promised. how He did it before

Who's to say He won't yet do that ?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Who's to say He won't yet do that ?

It is unnecessary for Christ to fight as in the day of battle, because our weapons are not carnal as were those of the Jews under the old covenant.
And no one in modern warfare has in their camps any of the following animals as they used to, to do battle and carry supplies and cattle for food.
Zechariah 14:15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
Modern Judaism is a hollowed out religion created out of the doctrines and traditions of men and has no priesthood, no temple, therefore no sacrifices and there are no 12 tribes separated from each other as commanded by the law. etc. etc. etc.

 

[robycop3]

Seems our preterist bros. have given up trying to defend that false doctrine.

 

[robycop3]

Prove from the Bible, not your opinion, that Jesus didn’t return with all power and glory when he rose from the dead. What is Jesus LACKING in power and glory and authority right now?

Every eye didn't see His resurrection.(Rev. 1:7) Besides, He hadn't physically departed then. Only His soul did, to paradise for 3 days & nights.

Prove that redemption didn’t happen at the cross.

Not part of the conversation. No Christian questions the fact that He sealed the New Covenant at the cross.

Prove that Jesus returns in water vapor rather than with his saints.

He will return with both.

Prove that the abomination that made Jerusalem desolate wasn’t murdering Jesus.

Easiest of all to prove. Jesus mentioned the AOD mentioned by Daniel. That one occurred in the 160s BC. Daniel did NOT call the murder of Jesus the AOD.

Jesus said every eye will see His return. Prove from actual history that has occurred.

 

[robycop3]

The preterists lose.They've given up defending their stuff here. I hope it's because they realize the TRUTH.

 

[robycop3]

Every eye didn't see His resurrection.(Rev. 1:7) Besides, He hadn't physically departed then. Only His soul did, to paradise for 3 days & nights.



Not part of the conversation. No Christian questions the fact that He sealed the New Covenant at the cross.



He will return with both.



Easiest of all to prove. Jesus mentioned the AOD mentioned by Daniel. That one occurred in the 160s BC. Daniel did NOT call the murder of Jesus the AOD.

Jesus said every eye will see His return. Prove from actual history that has occurred.

B0b_1000, been waiting nearly 3 months for your reply. Or, have you given up like the rest of the prets here ?

 

[Jipsah]

Seems our preterist bros. have given up trying to defend that false doctrine.

You're right. The Temple is still standing. No prophecy has ever been fulfilled. Ever. You can go back into the refrigerator now, we'll wake you if anything ever happens.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I don’t think the Preterists gave “given up” as you so fondly hope. I think they are probably judiciously applying the scripture directive in Proverbs 14:7 in this case.