Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[parousia70]

Reply to Parousia:
Yes, in the Millennium, people will still be able to make mistakes and wrong choices. But Satan won't be around to deceive us.

What type of "wrong choice" can people make now via the deception of Satan, that they will be unable to make without it in the millennium?
Any?

What is God aiming to achieve?
A people who have freely chosen to obey Him and keep His Commandments. His Witnesses and His friends.

Seems He's already acheieved that.

 

[keras]

What type of "wrong choice" can people make now via the deception of Satan, that they will be unable to make without it in the millennium?
Any?

We know that people like Hitler and Stalin and many other horrible criminals, have been demon possessed. The examples in the Bible and even today, it can still happen. As Revelation 13:4 tells us.

With Satan bound during the Millennium, that won't happen.
There won't be any incentive to crime, as peace and prosperity will hold right until the end. Only when Satan is released for his short season, will some people again rebel against Jesus.

Seems He's already acheieved that.

Yes; He just needs to winnow the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12

 

[trophy33]

We know that people like Hitler and Stalin and many other horrible criminals, have been demon possessed.

No, we do not know that.

 

[parousia70]

We know that people like Hitler and Stalin and many other horrible criminals, have been demon possessed. The examples in the Bible and even today, it can still happen. As Revelation 13:4 tells us.

With Satan bound during the Millennium, that won't happen.
There won't be any incentive to crime, as peace and prosperity will hold right until the end. Only when Satan is released for his short season, will some people again rebel against Jesus.

Ok I'll rephrase the question.
What type of wrong choices will people be able to make in the millennium without any incentive to Sin?

Are you saying like people will still make wrong turns or get directions messed up, or accidentially grab the tube of preperation H instead of toothpaste? Those kind of wrong choices? Just not Sinful ones?

 

[keras]

No, we do not know that.

Read the NT. Jesus cast out demons then and the situation hasn't changed. Exorcism is still carried out today.

What type of wrong choices will people be able to make in the millennium without any incentive to Sin?

We do not know very much detail of how it will be during the Millennium.
But Revelation 20:1-3 plainly states that Satan will be unable to deceive people then.
Your AMill idea is a crock and conflicts with reality.

 

[trophy33]

Read the NT. Jesus cast out demons then and the situation hasn't changed. Exorcism is still carried out today.

That does not mean Hitler or Stalin were demon possessed.

 

[keras]

That does not mean Hitler or Stalin were demon possessed.

My point is that some people have been and are demon possessed.
Therefore; Satan is still at large and able to deceive those who allow it.

This truth destroys the AMill theory.

 

[trophy33]

My point is that some people have been and are demon possessed.

I doubt there is any proof of a demon possession.

 

[robycop3]

The end of preterism:

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

We see from these verses that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, and, in reading the rest of Revelation, we see He won't leave earth again. Thus, if the beast has already come & gone, JESUS SHOULD STIILBE HERE, ruling the nations strictly, "with a rod of iron".

 

[parousia70]

Thus, if the beast has already come & gone, JESUS SHOULD STIILBE HERE, ruling the nations strictly, "with a rod of iron".

First, it must be pointed out that scripture nowhere foretells a time when all nations willingly submit to Christ. Just the opposite: When Psalm 110 says "rule thou in the midst of thine enemies," it presupposes resistance to Christ's reign. Likewise, when Psalm 2 says the Son will break the nations with a rod of iron and thus urges earth's kings and judges to "kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way" (v. 12), it indicates that Christ governs all nations, whether they acknowledge him or not (cf. Zech. 14:16-19). Indeed, Isaiah himself says as much when he states that Christ will "judge among the nations and shall rebuke many peoples" (Isa. 2:4). Thus, the notion of a time when universal subordinance to His rule will obtain on earth is mere fantasy.

Second, it must be pointed out that Jesus is here today:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

And He is presently ruling over ALL of Heaven and earth.

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus Christ is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.

To Deny Jesus rules over the Whole World today is to deny plain scripture.

 

[endofdayz]

The end of preterism:

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

We see from these verses that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, and, in reading the rest of Revelation, we see He won't leave earth again. Thus, if the beast has already come & gone, JESUS SHOULD STIILBE HERE, ruling the nations strictly, "with a rod of iron".

Excellent point. I'm glad Preterism is fringe of a fringe and there's not many people who take it seriously. I do believe it's dangerous because the Bible tells us to be prepared for the Coming of the Lord and Preterism tells you not to be prepared because everything has already happened.

1. Who exactly was the false prophet? When did he rise from the earth? When did he cause fire to fall from the sky? When did he make the image of the beast?

2. Who's the beast that gets the deadly wound? When did he get it and make war with the saints? When did he kill the two witnesses?

3. Who were the two witnesses? When did they lie dead in the street for 3 1/2 days? When did people send each other gifts over 3 1/2 days? When did they ascend into a cloud after they were killed and revived?

4. Who was mystery babylon and what year did it fall?

5. When did Gog attack Israel?

6. Most scholars say Revelation was written in 95-96 A.D., why would John write Revelation twenty years after all has been fulfilled in 70 A.D? Why didn't John write about the Millennial Kingdom instead of all of these future events?

7. When did the beast ascend out of the bottomless pit and who was he? When did he exist, then was not and then existed again when he ascends out of the bottomless pit?

Like I said, I'm glad Preterism is just a fringe of a fringe. The beast from the sea is forming before our eyes. This is a beast of governments(10 horns with crowns) and 7 heads of blasphemy(universal religion). The Bible tells us ONE OF IT'S HEADS is wounded not the entire beast.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

We should be aware as Christians of this deadly wound. The person that gets the deadly wound is the 8th king but of the 7 in Revelation 17. This means the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will take over the body of the 8th king that gets the deadly wound.

This is why I think Preterism is dangerous. It blinds people and they can't see what's coming.

 

[robycop3]

First, it must be pointed out that scripture nowhere foretells a time when all nations willingly submit to Christ. Just the opposite: When Psalm 110 says "rule thou in the midst of thine enemies," it presupposes resistance to Christ's reign. Likewise, when Psalm 2 says the Son will break the nations with a rod of iron and thus urges earth's kings and judges to "kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way" (v. 12), it indicates that Christ governs all nations, whether they acknowledge him or not (cf. Zech. 14:16-19). Indeed, Isaiah himself says as much when he states that Christ will "judge among the nations and shall rebuke many peoples" (Isa. 2:4). Thus, the notion of a time when universal subordinance to His rule will obtain on earth is mere fantasy.

Second, it must be pointed out that Jesus is here today:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

And He is presently ruling over ALL of Heaven and earth.

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus Christ is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.

To Deny Jesus rules over the Whole World today is to deny plain scripture.

I have often cited Matt. 18:20 as proof that Jesus often comes SPIRITUALLY to earth. But He's NOT here PHYSICALLY yet. We don't see Him when He comes Spiritually, but every eye shall see Him when He physically returns, as He said Himself.

Yes, He has authority over everything & everyone but His Father, but He isn't exercising it on earth yet, except in regulating the "forces of nature". It's VERY-obvious He isn't exercising His authority over mankind, as plainly evidenced by the prevalence of sin!

And 'rule with a rod of iron' means to rule strictly. In the millenium, almost all men will willingly submit to His rule, but some will always be looking for ways to avoid it. They'll think they can fool Him, but they'll fail, of course, & He will swiftly deal with disobedience.

But this is still future, of course.

 

[robycop3]

Excellent point. I'm glad Preterism is fringe of a fringe and there's not many people who take it seriously. I do believe it's dangerous because the Bible tells us to be prepared for the Coming of the Lord and Preterism tells you not to be prepared because everything has already happened.

1. Who exactly was the false prophet? When did he rise from the earth? When did he cause fire to fall from the sky? When did he make the image of the beast?

2. Who's the beast that gets the deadly wound? When did he get it and make war with the saints? When did he kill the two witnesses?

3. Who were the two witnesses? When did they lie dead in the street for 3 1/2 days? When did people send each other gifts over 3 1/2 days? When did they ascend into a cloud after they were killed and revived?

4. Who was mystery babylon and what year did it fall?

5. When did Gog attack Israel?

6. Most scholars say Revelation was written in 95-96 A.D., why would John write Revelation twenty years after all has been fulfilled in 70 A.D? Why didn't John write about the Millennial Kingdom instead of all of these future events?

7. When did the beast ascend out of the bottomless pit and who was he? When did he exist, then was not and then existed again when he ascends out of the bottomless pit?

Like I said, I'm glad Preterism is just a fringe of a fringe. The beast from the sea is forming before out eyes. This is a beast of governments(10 horns with crowns) and 7 heads of blasphemy(universal religion). The Bible tells us ONE OF IT'S HEADS is wounded not the entire beast.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

We should be aware as Christians of this deadly wound. The person that gets the deadly wound is the 8th king but of the 7 in Revelation 17. This means the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will take over the body of the 8th king that gets the deadly wound.

This is why I think Preterism is dangerous. It blinds people and they can't see what's coming.

"Beast" refers to both the empire & the man who will rule it. At first, it'll be a coalition of peoples & nations from the old Roman empires, but, under the beast/antichrist, it'll take over more & more of the world, some parts willingly, others by military force. The trib will soon hit it, but it'll survive til the events of Rev. 19:11-21 occur.

 

[parousia70]

I'm glad Preterism is fringe of a fringe and there's not many people who take it seriously.

Actually (Partial) Preterism is the Majority eschatological view of Christianity. Always has been.
Futurism, especially Hyper & Dispensational Futurism, is the relative newcomer (Nobody before 1850 or so held anything even remotely resembling Hyper & Dispensational Futurism) and is held by a demonstrable minority. Most Christians don't take it seriously.

 

[robycop3]

Actually (Partial) Preterism is the Majority eschatological view of Christianity. Always has been.
Futurism, especially Hyper & Dispensational Futurism, is the relative newcomer (Nobody before 1850 or so held anything even remotely resembling Hyper & Dispensational Futurism) and is held by a demonstrable minority. Most Christians don't take it seriously.

Partial preterism is proven false by both the aforementioned Rev. 19 & by Matt. 24 where Jesus says He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. So, if the trib is already past, Jesus is long-overdue. No way around PLAIN sCRIPTURE.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Partial preterism is proven false by both the aforementioned Rev. 19 & by Matt. 24 where Jesus says He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. So, if the trib is already past, Jesus is long-overdue. No way around PLAIN sCRIPTURE.

Tell us from the following what it means to be made "for a little while" a little lower than the angels and to be made in the likeness of "sinful flesh"? Is He still in the flesh? And please cite scripture for your answer.
Hebrews 2:
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[Timtofly]

Tell us from the following what it means to be made "for a little while" a little lower than the angels and to be made in the likeness of "sinful flesh"? Is He still in the flesh? And please cite scripture for your answer.
Hebrews 2:
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Adam physically died the instant he disobeyed God. That was when humans were made lower than the angels. Many want to claim God created all humans on the 6th day lower than the angels. That is not what this passage is declaring.

The sons of God and the angels share equal status. One being on earth. The other being in the firmament above earth. Neither have superiority over the other. Even the angels appear as human on earth. They do not become inferior and take on human sinful flesh.

The point about Jesus is that he did have corruptible flesh, but no sin nature from Adam's fallen offspring. But if an angel should appear in human form Paul says they may be indistinguishable from other humans. Those in Sodom, did think the two angels were just humans. In that case, even angels were made a little lower than an angel to blend in and appear unnoticed as an angel.

Those verses are not supposed to make it difficult to understand, nor over think it. It just means God took on human form. Even corruptible human form. Not to be compared to the angels, nor define what an angel is. Nor what a human is for that matter.

 

[robycop3]

Tell us from the following what it means to be made "for a little while" a little lower than the angels and to be made in the likeness of "sinful flesh"? Is He still in the flesh? And please cite scripture for your answer.
Hebrews 2:
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Jesus was resurrected in the flesh, but it wasn't exactly the same any more. The wounds He had received 3 says earlier were healed, leaving onlt scars. And He almost certainly resumed His glorious body once He ascended out of sight. And in His return, He will be in His full glory, as He said.

What's this to do with the fact that He hasn't yet returned?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Jesus was resurrected in the flesh, but it wasn't exactly the same any more. The wounds He had received 3 says earlier were healed, leaving onlt scars. And He almost certainly resumed His glorious body once He ascended out of sight. And in His return, He will be in His full glory, as He said.

What's this to do with the fact that He hasn't yet returned?

None of what you said is scriptural. That's why you didn't use any scripture to back it up.
John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side.....
Doesn't sound healed to me if Thomas can put his hand in His side. And you claim that's His glorious body?
And where in scripture does it say that His body of flesh was glorified?
Where does it say He'll return in the flesh?
Based on the following, how do you expect to see Him?
Acts 7: 49“‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord,
or what is the place of my rest?
50Did not my hand make all these things?’

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Adam physically died the instant he disobeyed God. That was when humans were made lower than the angels. Many want to claim God created all humans on the 6th day lower than the angels. That is not what this passage is declaring.

I would like to see scripture that backs that up. But, that really wasn't the crux of my question.