Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[Timtofly]

This is so called dispensationalism. A view of history developed by Darby in 19th century and spread mostly in the American protestantism.

I do not think this system is what the New Testament teaches so I do not believe the points you postulated.

Did he teach that the 7th Trumpet is the end of Daniel's 70th week? Revelation 10.

Revelation 20 is still a part of the NT. There are no humans left alive prior to the 1000 year reign. Only those resurrected rule on earth. They have offspring. It is a family rule over many generations. After 1000 years on a perfect earth between 30 and 40 generations are possible. Who teaches that?

All I have seen is either the earth is desolate for 1000 years, people just keep getting better over time, or Amil here complain wickedness goes on for 1000 years, just like now, so the Millennium is now.

Some preterist claim the Millennium ended in the first century, I guess the first coming was Christ at the time of David and the Second Coming was the Cross, and sin has just kept on keeping on for 1991 years now.

So no one teaches sin actually stops, and there is literally no sin like before Adam disobeyed and brought sin into the world. Those graves opened at the Cross should be the only humanity on earth, and their offspring like Revelation 20 declares. Except Revelation 20 is still future and has not happened yet.

Revelation 20 does not make me a futurists. Just pre-mil because the Second Coming happens before the 1000 year reign on earth. That no one can prove Revelation 20 is current or past places me as a futurists. I have yet to meet a futurists who agrees with me about the 1000 year reign.

 

[Timtofly]

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10/1 Thessalonians 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

Those dead are not physically dead. They are Adam's flesh and blood dead. Point to graves being opened. Graves were opened at the Cross. The Cross was not the second coming. So there has already been 1991 years since those resurrected humans came out of their graves. So there has already been a gap of over 1000 years. Revelation 20 declares another gap of 1000 years. It cannot be a singled out, one time event, per Scripture. Since you failed to show the words, you have no proof. Will you redefine the resurrection of Matthew 27 and Revelation 20?

 

[trophy33]

Did he teach that the 7th Trumpet is the end of Daniel's 70th week? Revelation 10.

I do not know if he taught this one specific detail. But the general theological system you refer to is his.

Revelation 20 is still a part of the NT. There are no humans left alive prior to the 1000 year reign. Only those resurrected rule on earth. They have offspring. It is a family rule over many generations. After 1000 years on a perfect earth between 30 and 40 generations are possible. Who teaches that?

All I have seen is either the earth is desolate for 1000 years, people just keep getting better over time, or Amil here complain wickedness goes on for 1000 years, just like now, so the Millennium is now.

Some preterist claim the Millennium ended in the first century, I guess the first coming was Christ at the time of David and the Second Coming was the Cross, and sin has just kept on keeping on for 1991 years now.

So no one teaches sin actually stops, and there is literally no sin like before Adam disobeyed and brought sin into the world. Those graves opened at the Cross should be the only humanity on earth, and their offspring like Revelation 20 declares. Except Revelation 20 is still future and has not happened yet.

Revelation 20 does not make me a futurists. Just pre-mil because the Second Coming happens before the 1000 year reign on earth. That no one can prove Revelation 20 is current or past places me as a futurists. I have yet to meet a futurists who agrees with me about the 1000 year reign.

I personally do not think millennium is an important concept. Its just in one verse in the whole New Testament, so I see no reason to make it the core of some eschatological system.

Because its in Revelation, there is certainly some symbolic meaning behind it, but I do not want to guess which one. The more guesses one has to incorporate to his system, the more errors he will have.

 

[Timtofly]

I do not know if he taught this one specific detail. But the general theological system you refer to is his.


I personally do not think millennium is an important concept. Its just in one verse in the whole New Testament, so I see no reason to make it the core of some eschatological system. Because its in Revelation, there is certainly some symbolic meaning behind it, but I do not want to guess which one.

What theological system do I refer to, if you do not even know the difference?

I do not guess either. Revelation 20 literally gives us a 1000 year time frame. Stop making it a guessing game.

 

[trophy33]

What theological system do I refer to, if you do not even know the difference?

Dispensationalism.

I do not guess either. Revelation 20 literally gives us a 1000 year time frame. Stop making it a guessing game.

Revelation is not literal. Gospels are literal. Take your eschatological core from gospels, its more reasonable. You know, the difference between sand and rock for building a house upon.

 

[Timtofly]

Dispensationalism.


Revelation is not literal. Gospels are literal. Take your eschatological core from gospels, its more reasonable. You know, the difference between sand and rock for building a house upon.

I have never referred to nor implied dispensationalism. If that were the case, then Paul is the original dispensationalist, and not some guy in the last 100 years.

John is more literal than the Gospels. John does not use parables in Revelation. You have an interesting take on the literal. You claim parables are literal, but an eye witness account is not literal.

 

[trophy33]

I have never referred nor implied dispensationalism. If that were the case, then Paul is the original dispensationalist, and not some guy in the last 100 years.

John is more literal than the Gospels. John does not use parables in Revelation. You have an interesting take on the literal. You claim parables are literal, but an eye witness account is not literal.

I do not claim parables are literal. I said Gospels are literal, because its genre is a historical record.

Yes, Gospels contain some parables, because they contain what Jesus said and Jesus said some parables. But regarding eschatology, Jesus was not using parables.

John is more literal than the Gospels.

Does your eschatology need to hold such strange positions or is it just your personal opinion and your eschatology would work without it, too?

 

[keras]

But regarding eschatology, Jesus was not using parables.

Right, and He said: He would work for two days and then on the third day He would attain His goal. Luke 13:32
This prophecy of Jesus, is correctly understood as the 2000 year Christian age, then the final 1000 year Millennium age of King Jesus on earth.
Luke 13:33 refers to His immediate plans.
Proved by hindsight; of the nearly 2000 years having passed and the one day to God being the same as 1000 earth years. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8

Jesus also said it will be the same as it was in the days of Noah when He comes as the Son of Man. Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 21:25-28
Note; that the actual Return of Jesus is as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
So the event when He punishes the ungodly peoples is all before the glorious Return. Proved by Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 15:1
That worldwide disaster will be the Sixth Seal and the world will never be the same again.

 

[trophy33]

Right, and He said: He would work for two days and then on the third day He would attain His goal. Luke 13:32
This prophecy of Jesus, is correctly understood as the 2000 year Christian age, then the final 1000 year Millennium age of King Jesus on earth.

At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

There is nothing about 2000 years of Christian age and 1000 years of millennium, in the text. Its about His death.

 

[keras]

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10/1 Thessalonians 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

Not one of these things will happen when Jesus Returns.
1/ A general resurrection of all Christians. Paul never says 'all'' those in Christ. Revelation 20:4 is indisputable; ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised back to mortal life.
2/ Jesus will only separate the peoples [nations] Matthew 25:31-33
The Judgment of everyone who has ever lived happens after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
3/ The NH, NE come after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1

Those key eschatological events will all occur when the Bible prophets say they will.
A Millennium reign of Jesus is plainly prophesied and proved by the exact 2000 year tranches of history - Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus and now nearly 2000 years since Jesus was here.

 

[keras]

At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

There is nothing about 2000 years of Christian age and 1000 years of millennium, in the text. Its about His death.

Explain then; Why did Jesus repeat Himself in the next verse? Are His Words just offhand comments?
The last words of verse 32, is 'My goal', or more accurately translated as 'My reward'. Luke 13:32 and 33, are NOT about the same events.

 

[trophy33]

A Millennium reign of Jesus is plainly prophesied and proved by the exact 2000 year tranches of history - Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus and now nearly 2000 years since Jesus was here.

According to masoretic text:
From Adam to Abraham: 1946 years.
From Abraham to Jesus: 2218 years.

According to LXX:
From Adam to Abraham: 3388 years.
From Abraham to Jesus: 2166 years.

Futurism is full of random numbers and of "exact" predictions based on ambiguous biblical texts, it simply cannot work. More and more people see that its not based on solid grounds and are leaving futurism every day.

 

[trophy33]

Explain then; Why did Jesus repeat Himself in the next verse? Are His Words just offhand comments?
The last words of verse 32, is 'My goal', or more accurately translated as 'My reward'. Luke 13:32 and 33, are NOT about the same events.

I do not know why Jesus repeats himself in the next verse. But it does not mean its about christian era, millennium and thousands of years.

 

[keras]

According to masoretic text:
From Adam to Abraham: 1946 years.
From Abraham to Jesus: 2218 years.

According to LXX:
From Adam to Abraham: 3388 years.
From Abraham to Jesus: 2166 years.

Futurism is full of random numbers and of "exact" predictions based on ambiguous biblical texts, it simply cannot work. More and more people see that its not based on solid grounds and are leaving futurism every day.

From Adam to Abrams birth is 1948 years. He was 52 when God called him and he departed from Ur. Exactly 2000 years.
From Abraham to the Babylonian conquest of Judah, in 586 BC was 1386.5 years. As per the given time periods for the Patriarchs and the Jewish Kings.
From then until Jesus was acclaimed as King and subsequently killed, in 30 AD; was 613.5 years. Exactly 2000 years.

Now we are 1991 years past 30 AD.
All as the Bible and the historical record plainly tell us.
Denial of the true facts is a serious matter, and rejection of the Prophetic Word; simply leaves one in the dark.

Your opinion re Luke 13:32-33, is unsupported and of no value.
Was His Death, Jesus' only goal? What about Revelation 19:11 and many other prophesies about His reign over all the world? Zechariah 14:16-21

 

[Timtofly]

I do not claim parables are literal. I said Gospels are literal, because its genre is a historical record.

Yes, Gospels contain some parables, because they contain what Jesus said and Jesus said some parables. But regarding eschatology, Jesus was not using parables.

Does your eschatology need to hold such strange positions or is it just your personal opinion and your eschatology would work without it, too?

Actually the parables cover a lot of eschatology. I can distinguish between figurative and literal prophecy in Revelation. Should that be an issue for you? Do you have issues with the parables in the Gospels that deal with eschatology?

 

[trophy33]

Do you have issues with the parables in the Gospels that deal with eschatology?

No, as long as we understand that those are parables. I do not recall parables specifically about eschatology, just about the kingdom of God. Any specific in mind?

With parables, images and symbolism, we must always look for the point, we cannot take it too far or else we will get various absurd ideas.

 

[trophy33]

From Adam to Abrams birth is 1948 years. He was 52 when God called him and he departed from Ur. Exactly 2000 years.
From Abraham to the Babylonian conquest of Judah, in 586 BC was 1386.5 years. As per the given time periods for the Patriarchs and the Jewish Kings.
From then until Jesus was acclaimed as King and subsequently killed, in 30 AD; was 613.5 years. Exactly 2000 years.

Now we are 1991 years past 30 AD.
All as the Bible and the historical record plainly tell us.
Denial of the true facts is a serious matter, and rejection of the Prophetic Word; simply leaves one in the dark.

Your opinion re Luke 13:32-33, is unsupported and of no value.
Was His Death, Jesus' only goal? What about Revelation 19:11 and many other prophesies about His reign over all the world? Zechariah 14:16-21

Your numbers do not work, as mentioned in my previous post. You cannot even prove whether we should go with the LXX or Masoretic text. Or Vulgate. Or something else. And even if some textual family approved your numbers (none does), you would still need to prove its the way how to predict the future.

Also, we cannot build our eschatology on unclear or symbolic verses and ignore the clear ones said in the common manner. Its quite obviously a wrong way to do things.

Basics of any system must be built on the most solid and most clear things. Which are the plain words of Christ about His coming and when it will happen and who will see it.

 

[keras]

Your numbers do not work, as mentioned in my previous post. You cannot even prove whether we should go with the LXX or Masoretic text. Or Vulgate. Or something else. And even if some textual family approved your numbers (none does), you would still need to prove its the way how to predict the future.

Also, we cannot build our eschatology on unclear or symbolic verses and ignore the clear ones said in the common manner. Its quite obviously a wrong way to do things.

Basics of any system must be built on the most solid and most clear things. Which are the plain words of Christ about His coming and when it will happen and who will see it.

More useless opinion.
I use the BIBLE, as translated from hundreds of ancient texts, by expert linguists.

What the solid and clear time periods, as given in the Bible and from known history do give us, is proof that God has decreed 7000 years for mankind. A parallel of the Creation sequence.
Rejecting these truths is a very serious matter.

 

[trophy33]

More useless opinion.
I use the BIBLE, as translated from hundreds of ancient texts, by expert linguists.

What the solid and clear time periods, as given in the Bible and from known history do give us, is proof that God has decreed 7000 years for mankind. A parallel of the Creation sequence.

Your numbers do not fit with any textual family. There is also no reason to count it as you do. And there is also no reason to think that it should be done to find some pattern according to the creation sequence, in the first place.

Rejecting these truths is a very serious matter.

I begin to think that threats are your frequent tactics. When somebody does not buy your views, you say something similar.

 

[parousia70]

What about Revelation 19:11 and many other prophesies about His reign over all the world?

To Deny Jesus rules over the Whole World today is to deny plain scripture.

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus Christ is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.