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predestined

sawdust

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Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

God doesn't choose who is saved and who is not. He chooses what he will do with believers. We are chosen "in Christ", not all believers were chosen in Christ. Adam was chosen to be in the Garden, Noah in the Ark, descendants of Abraham in Israel etc. All are chosen to be in the time and place God wants us.

The doctrine of Predestination has to do with believers only so is not about God choosing people to be saved or damned.

I've always liked the saying ... "man makes his destiny but God holds his fate" ... meaning you can decide what you will be within the confines of human endeavour but God has decided where people ultimately end up based on His declaration. "Choose you this day" :)
 
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Kenny'sID

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Did you, perhaps, miss the post just before yours?

It is the proper view of election and yours is just a straw man which no predestination proponent (past or present) believes or teaches.

Again, a statement with no explanation whatsoever as to why it is a fact.

Define predestination.
 
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redleghunter

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I dont believe that we can change the end....But we can change our journey to that end....
Very deep. Like it. I think Jethro Tull has a few songs like that.
 
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His student

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Again, a statement with no explanation whatsoever as to why it is a fact.

Define predestination.
I could provide for you the teaching of every proponent of predestination to show what they teach. But that would take hundreds of volumes. It would be much easier for you to show a single quote by one which teaches the straw man doctrine you rail against.

Will you do that for us? Can you do that for us? I think not!

The meaning of predestination is that the events making up every part of history in God's creation was known before hand by Him and allowed by Him or brought to pass by Him or it would not and could not happen.
 
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redleghunter

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Redleghunter, if you follow Augustine you should believe elect can fall away. Concerning the reformers, they were wrong in a lot if things, taught things that the early Church didn't.
Where did Augustine say that?
 
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redleghunter

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I believe in Christ, and in the words of the gospels, the epistles, but still I only know in part, and believe everyone individually only knows in part. I don't believe I know in full, see. So, instead of believing in corporate election, I recognize it's an interpretation just like double predestination is an interpretation. It's sort of like this: I know fully that my nervous system works, even while I don't know precisely everything (instead only some things) about how it works. (I'm aware that a very general description of certain key pieces/realities about how synapses and networks of neurons work is not a full understanding.)
I read the wiki link.

The entry argument to corporate election or choosing is based on the unsubstantiated claim “us” means church instead of us individuals who become part of the church. There was no reason given why it must be church even when the word church does not apprear.

Then a problem arises in verses 13-14 when salvation is mentioned as us. Then to be consistent you would have to defend corporate salvation through the church. If you want that I’m sure there is a local Roman Catholic Church nearby to explain that.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Kenny'sID,
[Please, if you have an accusation explain what it is.
For instance, What "biblical truth" did I refer to as ridiculous, and why is it ridiculous.]

Here is your post;

[What would be the point of even bothering to write the bible if that were so? What is going to happen would just happen, no matter what. Actually, if predestination was a fact, we might as well be sent straigh to heaven or hell and not even bother with the in between, it would be a waste of time.

Or in short,
predestination is ridiculous, and would make us a bunch of no free will robots... don't you believe it. :)]
You posted this profane post calling God's predestination ridiculous

[What is that "clear teaching" I need to deal with, and why?]

The bible teaches both election and predestination as central to redemption. For you to take it upon yourself to call the teaching names shows youare either a novice or exceedingly naive to Divine truth.
[
What teaching am I crossing out of the bible?]

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow,
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover
whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of
God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



[I have nothing solid to reply to there, and the post serves no real purpose.]
The purpose of this post is to demonstrate that on message boards people post in ignorance without even knowing or having studied the position they post against.

from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
 
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Kenny'sID

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The meaning of predestination is that the events making up every part of history in God's creation was known before hand by Him and allowed by Him or brought to pass by Him or it would not and could not happen.

I could provide for you the teaching of every proponent of predestination to show what they teach. But that would take hundreds of volumes. It would be much easier for you to show a single quote by one which teaches the straw man doctrine you rail against.

Will you do that for us? Can you do that for us? I think not!

i can and will, everyone that uses the term predestination is saying way I am speaking against. The term itself is all that's required.

The meaning of predestination is that the events making up every part of history in God's creation was known before hand by Him and allowed by Him or brought to pass by Him or it would not and could not happen.

That doesn't line up at all with the dictionaries definition, the one that agrees with me on what it means.

So, please show me where your definition is biblical, and why it should take precedent over the dictionaries and we can go from there?
 
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His student

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...................I don't think God predestined in the way of affecting peoples free will, but uses peoples choices of free will to get His will done.
That is exactly the position espoused by reformed theologians since the Reformation and long before.

The predestination of our choices no more does away with our wills than the predestination of an earthquake in the Tribulation does away with the laws of geology.

Reformed doctrine is that God uses "means" to bring about what He has predestined to occur. Those means include the choices of men and angels.
 
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Halbhh

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I read the wiki link.

The entry argument to corporate election or choosing is based on the unsubstantiated claim “us” means church instead of us individuals who become part of the church. There was no reason given why it must be church even when the word church does not apprear.

Then a problem arises in verses 13-14 when salvation is mentioned as us. Then to be consistent you would have to defend corporate salvation through the church. If you want that I’m sure there is a local Roman Catholic Church nearby to explain that.

To me the word 'church' in the intro paragraph simply means all believers. So, it fits Eph 1:13-14 fine. Is there a place in these beginning sections you see as wrong? --

"Election is first and foremost centered in Christ: "He chose us in him" (Ephesians 1:4a).[6] Christ himself is the elect of God.[7] Regarding Christ, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen" (Matthew 12:18; cf. Isaiah 42:1, 6).[8] God audibly declared to Christ's disciples, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!" (Luke 9:35)[9] The Gospel writer John says, "I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One" (John 1:34, Today's New International Version).[10] The apostle Peter refers to Christ as "the Living Stone . . . chosen by God and precious to Him" (1 Peter 2:4; cf. v. 6).[11] Therefore, Christ, as the elect of God, is the foundation of our election.[12] Through union with Christ believers become members of the elect (Ephesians 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13).[13] No one is among the elect unless they are in a living faith union with Christ.[14]

Election is primarily corporate
"New Testament theologian Ben Witherington remarks that apart from the word election (eklektos) occasionally being used to apply to the king in the Old Testament, election in the Old Testament is predominantly applied corporately to a people, not to individuals. The Hebrew word for "elect" (bahir) is normally used in the plural, and thus refers collectively of Israel. While there are times in Scripture where God chooses individuals for a specific historical task or purpose (e.g. Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1), these are passages that have nothing to do with God deciding who will be saved, thus, they are of no relevance to this topic. The corporate concept of election in the Old Testament is the context which one must view the references to election in the New Testament.[15]

"Professor William Klein concluded that the New Testament writers "address salvific election in primarily, if not exclusively, corporate terms. In other words, God has chosen an elect body to save."[16] The elect are identified corporately as: "the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12; cf. 1:22-23; 2:16; 3:6; 5:23, 30), "members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19),[17] "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession" (1 Peter 2:9; cf. 2:10).[18] Thus, election is primarily corporate and only embraces individuals (secondarily) who identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the church—God's new covenant community.[19]

"New Testament scholar Brian Abasciano says that the Bible's teaching regarding "corporate election unto salvation is even more nuanced than simply saying that the group is elected primarily and the individual secondarily."[20]

"More precisely, it refers to the election of a group as a consequence of the choice of an individual who represents the group, the corporate head and representative. That is, the group is elected as a consequence of its identification with this corporate representative. The same may be said of individuals. They are chosen as a consequence of their identification with the people, and more fundamentally, with the individual corporate head. Thus,

'God chose the people of Israel in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel (Deuteronomy 4:37; 7:6-8). That is, by choosing Jacob/Israel, the corporate/covenant representative, God also chose his descendants as his covenant people. . . . The covenant representative on the one hand and the people/nation of Israel on the other hand are the focus of the divine covenantal election, and individuals are elect only as members of the elect people. Moreover, in principle, foreign individuals who were not originally members of the elect people could join the chosen people and become part of the elect, demonstrating again that the locus of election was the covenant community and that individuals found their election through membership in the elect people.'

"This notion of election is rooted in the Old Testament concept of corporate solidarity or representation, which views the individual as representing the community and identified with it and vice versa.[21]

....(continues at site)
Corporate election - Wikipedia

Notice how in that last quoted paragraph, this fits perfectly how we are to "love one another" as the central command to us from Christ. We are not isolated individuals, but instead we are together in a profound way: "Love one another as I have loved you."
 
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zoidar

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Where did Augustine say that?

Sorry I might have been wrong. He believed that the elect would perservere to the end, but that one could be justified by grace and still not be among the elect. Also he believed we can never know if we are among the elect.
 
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zoidar

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That is exactly the position espoused by reformed theologians since the Reformation and long before.

The predestination of our choices no more does away with our wills than the predestination of an earthquake in the Tribulation does away with the laws of geology.

Reformed doctrine is that God uses "means" to bring about what He has predestined to occur. Those means include the choices of men and angels.

The difference is I believe the will is free, it's not just that we can choose, we have free will to choose, and God knows our choice by free will and uses that.
 
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His student

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i can and will, everyone that uses the term predestination is saying way I am speaking against.
If you can and will - please do so.

Everyone who uses the term predestination is not saying what you are speaking against. You clearly said that predestination does away with our wills.
The term itself is all that's required.
Not so. The term does not say that we are robots - as you clearly say that it does.:scratch:
That doesn't line up at all with the dictionaries definition, the one that agrees with me on what it means.
The dictionary definition says nothing about our having our wills removed and becoming robots under predestination. You may well believe that that is what predestination "amounts to". But that is only your opinion of what it means - not the opinion of those who use the term.
So, please show me where your definition is biblical, and why it should take precedent over the dictionaries and we can go from there?
The biblical picture of a word always takes precedent over the picture provided by the writings of men.

The Bible clearly teaches predestination and the choices made by men and the fact that they will be held accountable or those choices.

You know the scriptures as well as I do. You simply choose to ignore one side of the doctrine and embrace the other because the former is difficult for you to comprehend.
 
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His student

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The difference is I believe the will is free, it's not just that we can choose, we have free will to choose, and God knows our choice by free will and uses that.
Complete and absolute freedom is a theological impossibility so long as we understand our nature vis a vis the nature of God.

The scriptures are also clear that our wills are not "free" in the total sense of the word.

That is particularly true for those who do not have His Spirit. Their wills are said to be held captive.

"....and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:28
 
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zoidar

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Complete and absolute freedom is a theological impossibility so long as we understand our nature vis a vis the nature of God.

The scriptures are also clear that our wills are not "free" in the total sense of the word.

That is particularly true for those who do not have His Spirit. Their wills are said to be held captive.

"....and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:28

When I say free will, I mean we are free to choose from a given number of options, not that we can choose everything.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Everyone who uses the term predestination is not saying what you are speaking against. You clearly said that predestination does away with our wills.

I'll answer just the first for now.

That's because that is how "predestination" is defined, the very reason I keep asking for definitions to the term from those who argue. The dictionary is all I have to go by until someone convinces me there is another official definition that is not as confusing as it seems to be here. Confusing as in the true definition doesn't seem to match up at all to what you seem to be claiming it is..

So, that's why you need to tell me your definition of predestination and show me why that is a fact with orderly scripture.

My definition leads me to believe God controls our thoughts and the out come of all that we do.
 
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SayaOtonashi

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God doesn't choose who is saved and who is not. He chooses what he will do with believers. We are chosen "in Christ", not all believers were chosen in Christ. Adam was chosen to be in the Garden, Noah in the Ark, descendants of Abraham in Israel etc. All are chosen to be in the time and place God wants us.

The doctrine of Predestination has to do with believers only so is not about God choosing people to be saved or damned.

I've always liked the saying ... "man makes his destiny but God holds his fate" ... meaning you can decide what you will be within the confines of human endeavour but God has decided where people ultimately end up based on His declaration. "Choose you this day" :)

Interesting. So in other words. A video game has several ends but you have to do everything to get to the good ending. Otherwise you will always lose the game. You have the freewill to make the choices but in the end if you fail to choice the right one you lose
 
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redleghunter

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The word 'foreordained' I felt a need to try to search up, and could not find it, though many potent verses do come up with other words that are not quite that one:
The modern term is determined:

Foreordain:

For FOREORDAIN see DETERMINE, No. 3, FOREKNOW, A

1 Strong's Number: g2919 Greek: krino
Determine, Determinate:

primarily, "to separate," hence, "to be of opinion, approve, esteem," Rom 14:5, also "to determine, resolve, decree," is used in this sense in Act 3:13; 20:16; 25:25; 27:1; 1Cr 2:2; 2Cr 2:1; Tts 3:12.
See CONDEMN, JUDGE, JUDGMENT, LAW, B, No. 2.

2 Strong's Number: g3724 Greek: horizo
Determine, Determinate:

denotes "to bound to set a boundary" (Eng., "horizon"); hence, "to mark out definitely, determine;" it is translated "to determine" in Luk 22:22, of the fore-ordained pathway of Christ; Act 11:29, of a "determination" to send relief; Act 17:26, where it is used of fixing the bounds of seasons. In Act 2:23 the verb is translated "determinate," with reference to counsel. Here the verbal form might have been adhered to by the translation "determined;" that is to say, in the sense of "settled." In Rom 1:4 it is translated "declared," where the meaning is that Christ was marked out as the Son of God by His resurrection and that of others (see under DECLARE). In Act 10:42; and 17:31 it has its other meaning of "ordain," that is, "to appoint by determined counsel." In Hbr 4:7, it is translated "limiteth," but preferably in the RV, "defineth," with reference to a certain period; here again it approaches its primary meaning of marking out the bounds of.
See DECLARE, No. 9, LIMIT, ORDAIN.

3 Strong's Number: g4309 Greek: proorizo
Determine, Determinate:

pro, "beforehand," and No. 2, denotes "to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain;" in Act 4:28, AV, "determined before," RV, "foreordained;" so the RV in 1Cr 2:7, AV, "ordained;" in Rom 8:29, 30 and Eph 1:5, 11, AV, "predestinate," RV, "foreordain."
See ORDAIN, Note (1), PREDESTINATE.

4 Strong's Number: g1956 Greek: epiluo
Determine, Determinate:

lit., "to loosen upon," denotes "to solve, expound," Mar 4:34; "to settle," as of a controversy, Act 19:39, AV, "it shall be determined," RV, "it shall be settled."
See EXPOUND, SETTLE.

5 Strong's Number: g1231 Greek: diaginosko
Determine, Determinate:

besides its meaning "to ascertain exactly," Act 23:15, was an Athenian law term signifying "to determine," so used in 24:22, RV, "determine;" AV, "know the uttermost of."

6 Strong's Number: g5021 Greek: tasso
Determine, Determinate:

See APPOINT, No. 5.

Note: Boulomai, "to be minded, to purpose," is translated "determined" in Act 15:37; RV, "was minded."
See MINDED, No. 2.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.]

STRONGS NT 4309: προορίζω

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg.(except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand, Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))
 
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mark kennedy

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So if we live just by faith with out doing any of that stuff, our faith is nullified?
That's almost comical, believing is doing stuff. If I can't trust the ice to hold me, do you really think I'm going to go skating on that thin ice? But if I do trust God's promises I might venture out on the ice, knowing that the one who makes the promise is faithful. Faith and works are two parts of the same thing, it's a connection to God through the gospel of peace. Works follow, they don't lead, they are a work of grace as much as mercy and forgiveness, if you are forgiven much you will love much. I've often noticed, sometimes the worst sinners become the most fruitful ministers, there is a reason for that, in a word, it's the power of grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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redleghunter

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It looks like you are saying apostolic teaching is biblical doctrine.
I would consider that axiomatic.

Can you please rephrase so I can be certain what you are saying. And please give me the reason for your comment in your own words, all to often one has no idea what we're supposed to get from just posting scripture with no explanation, as you may be understanding the scripture in a way I may not...thanks
Perhaps it was in response to the notion Calvin made up predestination when the apostle Paul and apostle Peter taught it. Thus providing the Scriptures so everyone can see it in context.
 
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