predestined

[redleghunter]

So if we live just by faith with out doing any of that stuff, our faith is nullified?

The Gospel is a call to discipleship as well.

This may be a good source to answer some questions.

An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

 

[Kenny'sID]

I would consider that axiomatic.


Perhaps it was in response to the notion Calvin made up predestination when the apostle Paul and apostle Peter taught it. Thus providing the Scriptures so everyone can see it in context.

Still have no idea how or what I would even be responding to if I replied, but just so you know, I made an attempt.

 

[redleghunter]

Remembering we can only have faith because God created us to begin with, gave us the ability, gave us our souls, then, possibly this way (involving the 'cooperation' as some have put it):

Acts 10 NIV (instead of only verses 4, 34-35, it's best to have the entire account)

We have some inner goodness before God calls us which enables us to respond?

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. (Acts10:34-36)

I see Peter is explaining the Good News not only for Jews.

Was there something more?

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Is there anyway to test if you are truly saved?

 

[Neogaia777]

Is there anyway to test if you are truly saved?

Washed in the Water and the Blood...? Being born again...? But, ways to test them or that, even in yourself...? IDK about that...?

Cause would that be a one time thing, or not, ect...?

God Bless!

 

[SayaOtonashi]

It's just at times and a lot later I have been doubting about if I'm truly a believer.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Halbhh,

[ such as those we get by a more simple listening to John 3:16-17, where instead of already-determined, the verse says to us: "whoever would believe". ]
Except it does not say that. It is everyone believing...whosoever...is not in the text.

[Then 'predestined' can mean the other way of reading it naturally in the passages: that we were all given (by God's plan, ahead of time, even before the foundation of the world) the chance to respond (the God-given ability of faith), ]

No it cannot. It has the meaning God has given to it. Not what you would change it into.

[if we would humbly repent and fall on Christ, on God's amazing grace, in response to Him. That response does not have to be already-determined ('fated') ahead of time. ]
No one seeks God unless God draws the person and grants repentance and faith.
[It is predestined we can respond -- we are naturally His, to begin with, by His creation of us.]
This is a lie, a falsehood.unbiblical
[But if we do respond, believe, repent, rely on Christ, then He will accomplish our salvation,]

Jesus has already accomplished salvation Hebrews9:12

 

[redleghunter]

To you, you are watching it unfold. To the other guy.. he knows what is going to happen and who gets hurt, who gets sacked, who runs for yardage and who scores touch downs....

Is the other guy who knows what will happen Bill Belichick?

 

[redleghunter]

So your point is? Don't Calvinists like everyone else then go on to interpret what both Paul and Jesus said and arrive at different interpretations thus accounting for variance in doctrine. That should be quite obvious.

Then argue against the text. I presented no quotes from theologians.

 

[His student]

That's because that is how "predestination" is defined, the very reason I keep asking for definitions to the term from those who argue. The dictionary is all I have to go by until someone convinces me there is another official definition that is not as confusing as it seems to be here. Confusing as in the true definition doesn't seem to match up at all to what you seem to be claiming it is. So, that's why you need to tell me your definition of predestination and show me why that is a fact with orderly scripture.

Webster's definition of predestination:
1 : the act of predestinating : the state of being predestinated
2 : the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation

The lengthy definition I provided for you was the fleshed out Biblical picture rather than the simple secular definition above. I guess you didn't want that.

So - the Webster one seems good to me as the basic statement it was meant to be. Most Reformed theologians would agree with it as well. Therefore my simple definition of predestination seems to line up with the dictionary you rely on. No problem there.

What I am objecting to is the definition you gave it in your original post.

predestination is ridiculous, and would make us a bunch of no free will robots...

My definition leads me to believe God controls our thoughts and the out come of all that we do.

Wow. That lines up perfectly with your statement I referred to just before that. We are - according to you - a bunch of robots.

Your definition of Biblical predestination is full on hyper Calvinism and then some.

I certainly don't believe that and neither do most Reformed theologians including John Calvin before them.

I must have misunderstood where you were coming from. It seemed to me that you were against the idea of predestination.

Since you aren't being clear IMO - I may still be mixed up on what you believe.

But - if you are saying that it "seems to you" that the Reformed doctrine of predestination "amounts to" people being robots as you are able to understand it - just say that.

For example: "It seems to me that it amounts to robots and puppets rather than people actually being able to make choices for which they could be righteously judged by God."

That's quite a bit different than claiming that Reformed theologians teach a doctrine that makes people robots or puppets.

People who believe in and teach predestination are well able to tell people what they believe. They don't need you telling folks for them.

 

[redleghunter]

but God only moves in some hearts to believe that, so its still Gods choice not ours if we will be elect or not.

God choosing is synonymous with election. God chose Abraham and not Lot. Jesus chose His disciples and one was a devil and son of perdition to fulfill the Scriptures.

it's got nothing to do with us.

Not so. When God replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh we freely choose Him.

8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)

Notice we do not summon the Spirit.

so we dont choose to believe at all.

Not accurate. As I explained above when God calls a heart that has been changed we come to His unmerited Grace in faith believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent unto salvation. That is choosing. It’s entering a covenant.

some hearts God never moves so those hearts never had a chance...

Frankly look at it at it this way we are all condemned. We know from the Scriptures not all will be saved.

Indeed a mystery but I would recommend reading Romans before accusing God of not being fair.

like someone said tough luck to those ones.

A very crude way to look at it. I would first study the sovereignty of God over His own creation before drawing conclusions. What are your thoughts on this passage?

Romans 9:

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”a 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”b

10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac.11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”c 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”d

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”e

16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”f18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

what if you dont have that testifying? and how do you define what is that is? can't that just be your feelings playing tricks?

There are many passages which I can share however, emotion is not the measure we should look to.

The Spirit testifies as there is a change, a new creation new nature.

What do the Scriptures say? They compare what traits are of the flesh and those of the Spirit. Here are the fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery;20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

what if you believe in Jesus and what He did, so rationally you give ascent to that truth, but you dont have any testifying of the Spirit to your spirit...(whatever mystical or airy fairy concept that may be referring to??) then are you elect? can you know for sure?

James, Paul and Peter would call that dead faith. It is not a living saving faith.

James 2:

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one.e Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

needs to be way more concrete for most of us.

I believe the Scriptures provided are as concrete as concrete can get.

2 Corinthians 13:

1This is the third time I am coming to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”a

2I already warned you the second time I was with you. So now in my absence, I warn those who sinned earlier and everyone else: If I return, I will not spare anyone, 3since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4For He was indeed crucified in weakness, yet He lives by God’s power. And though we are weak in Him, yet by God’s power we will live with Him to serve you.

5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test? 6And I hope you will realize that we have not failed the test.

7Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong—not that we will appear to have stood the test, but that you will do what is right, even if we appear to have failed.8For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9In fact, we rejoice when we are weak but you are strong, and our prayer is for your perfection.

why try and follow if there is no real assurance that you are elect or not til you die.
.

How often are you speaking with God and learning more about Him?

 

[Neogaia777]

It's just at times and a lot later I have been doubting about if I'm truly a believer.

You can PM me anytime you like if you ever want to talk...

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

Ok. To me, I am not able to have the....already-knowing to know whether or not God has already decided for every individual (as distinct from certain individuals He choses ahead for a purpose) ahead of time.

That's instead "mystery" (see post #127 on previous page).

And it's even entirely beyond our knowing I think, in that we cannot know all of the mind of God, but only revealed things (alone):

Isaiah 55 NIV (instead of only the key verses 6-10, it's best of all to read this passage from verse 1 fully through (short chapter), because it's exactly about salvation itself even). His thoughts are not simply different, but so much higher that we cannot encompass (omnisciently know) all of His thoughts.

It is a humble approach for us to admit we don’t have God all figured out. He revealed what He did to us of Him and we are accountable on that. Not trying to figure out how what is revealed fits our human understanding.

Jesus gave His disciples and by extension us who are in Christ some very simple commands and a charter.

The charter or Great Commission to preach the Gospel, make disciples and baptize them. We really need to get “good” at doing that because it is a direct order from the King.

What is revealed of predestined is supposed to be a comfort for us. That’s how Ephesians 1 reads.

 

[redleghunter]

Do you really understand Reformed doctrine? My theology professor in seminary taught from the Reformed view that does not base God's election on any foreknowledge of our decision. Election is based upon God's sovereignty alone. He chooses whom to elect and whom is passed over. Although I'm not a fan of this website, it gives a succinct and balanced explanation:
Who are the elect of God?

Took this is what I was responding to:

“The Reformed model has nothing to do with what choices man makes since man is reprobate.”

Which evokes the question....Is it your understanding in Reformed doctrine that we don’t make any choices?

Let’s clear that up.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I must have misunderstood where you were coming from. It seemed to me that you were against the idea of predestination.

Yes you have, and are very confused..

We are - according to you - a bunch of robots.

No, according to predestination as I understood it.



predestine
verb
pre·des·tine | \ (ˌ)prē-ˈde-stən

\
predestined; predestining; predestines
Definition of predestine
transitive verb

: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand especially : predestinate sense 1.

I use the root word "predestine" definition, because predestination comes out of that and before the so called scholars got a hold of it, predestination would mean just as i said it did.

Meaning our turnout is already determined, just as programming a robot, whatever they do is determined by someone else. Pretty simple to see how I draw the conclusion.

As I quoted you in this post, *you* said I claimed you were no more than robots, but no, I claimed just the opposite, that that was ridiculous, and in affect, predestinationists in my view are the ones claiming that they are robots by saying what they do is predestined, so don't put that on me. I never made the claim, just the observation that is what you all were basically claiming.

So yes, I'd conclude you are definitely confused, and I hope that helps.

 

[His student]

Yes you have, and are very confused..



No, according to predestination as I understood it.



predestine
verb
pre·des·tine | \ (ˌ)prē-ˈde-stən

\
predestined; predestining; predestines
Definition of predestine
transitive verb

: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand especially : predestinate sense 1.

I use the root word "predestine" definition, because predestination comes out of that and before the so called scholars got a hold of it, predestination would mean just as i said it did.

Meaning our turnout is already determined, just as programming a robot, whatever they do is determined by someone else. Pretty simple to see how I draw the conclusion.

As I quoted you in this post, *you* said I claimed you were no more than robots, but no, I claimed just the opposite, that that was ridiculous, and in affect, predestinationists in my view are the ones claiming that they are robots by saying what they do is predestined, so don't put that on me. I never made the claim, just the observation that is what you all were basically claiming.

So yes, I'd conclude you are definitely confused, and I hope that helps.

Don't you believe that believer's names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world?

Don't you believe that non believer's names were not?

Don't you believe that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him and that those who are so drawn are so drawn because they have been given to the Son by the Father?

.....meaning our turnout is already determined, just as programming a robot, whatever they do is determined by someone else. Pretty simple to see how I draw the conclusion.

Actually your conclusion is wrong. Nothing in the definition you provide says that it's just like programming a robot.

Determining beforehand what will occur is not the same as "programming" it to occur.

Determining that evil men would crucify the Son of God is not the same as "programming" evil men to crucify Him.

Reformed theologians are very careful to spell out exactly what they do and do not believe.

God is not the author of evil and no Reformed theologian says otherwise - no matter that in your opinion what they teach "amounts to" that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Don't you believe that believer's names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world?

Don't you believe that names can and will be removed from that book, meaning nothing is in stone.

Don't you believe that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him and that those who are so drawn are so drawn because they have been given to the Son by the Father?

Don't you believe John 3:16?

Determining beforehand what will occur is not the same as "programming" it to occur.

Determining that evil men would crucify the Son of God is not the same as "programming" evil men to crucify Him.

Then you are saying they are not predestined? Good, I would agree, my whole point actually.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

But what about the OSAS? I guess it's easy to lose one's salvation? So I guess the best way to look at predestined is it's like a video game with only one good ending. The way you get there is the choices you make. It's you choices. To get to that good ending. With some games they have a few others ways to get to the good ending but still. There is only one good ending and it's your choice to get there or not.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I guess it's easy to lose one's salvation?

IMO, yes it is, and as easily as starting to live in wilful sin again after we are saved. The beauty of it is, we can always get forgiveness and give it another try, but if Christ returns while we are living in sin, that'll be it..not worth taking the chance.

While there are other that feel we can do as we like and salvation cannot be lost.

There are several treads on it.

 

[Neogaia777]

IMO, yes it is, and as easily as starting to live in wilful sin again after we are saved. The beauty of it is, we can always get forgiveness and give it another try, but if Christ returns while we are living in sin, that'll be it..not worth taking the chance.

While there are other that feel we can do as we like and salvation cannot be lost.

There are several treads on it.

I don't think it's as much as not thinking it can be lost, but it is if God knew and knows where you will land and be and including you supposed choices, if God knows all of that and we say He does, then how can we make a choice, or do anything in and of only ourselves alone to change or alter ourselves, or our course at all (without God) ect...?

Or the issue is, if you really ever were saved in the first place, ect... Does God predestinate the saved or those who will be saved, from those who will not, ect, and our choice means little at all, ect...?

God Bless!