predestined

[PaulCyp1]

There is no such thing as predestination. Like most Protestant beliefs, this manmade tradition is the result of misinterpretation of the Bible. Yes, God already knows everything we will do in that part of time that is future to us, because there is no such thing as future to Him. He sees the fullness of time eternally and simultaneously. At this moment He is viewing the origin of the universe, its eventual destruction, and every event that occurs between the two. He is viewing me doing what I did last year and what I will be doing next year. It should be obvious that someone simply watching me make choices, either from a position here in time, or from God's position outside of time, has no effect on the freedom of those choices.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't believe Eph is talking about specific individual election, but about the whoever who receives.

Can you show me that? Meaning argue that elect does not mean individuals.

And when or if you do, please tell me if verses 13-14 teach corporate salvation.

 

[Jonaitis]

I wonder if it would helpful to gather a bunch of guys and create a thread outlining each doctrinal points that "Calvinism" teaches from Scripture, beginning with the doctrines of grace and then the arguments surrounding it. One will start the thread with one point, the next will gather information on another, and so on. Maybe this can be helpful and a good reference to bring people who have questions like this.

 

[redleghunter]

There is no such thing as predestination. Like most Protestant beliefs, this manmade tradition is the result of misinterpretation of the Bible. Yes, God already knows everything we will do in that part of time that is future to us, because there is no such thing as future to Him. He sees the fullness of time eternally and simultaneously. At this moment He is viewing the origin of the universe, its eventual destruction, and every event that occurs between the two. He is viewing me doing what I did last year and what I will be doing next year. It should be obvious that someone simply watching me make choices, either from a position here in time, or from God's position outside of time, has no effect on the freedom of those choices.

Paul, love ya man, you keep dropping these assertion bombs in every thread on predestination. And I keep showing you, that the assertion is incorrect. Please explain this:

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

 

[Francis Drake]

God waits for our first move to love and obey Him before He predestines us? How does that work?

You really ought to read posts more carefully before criticising them.
I didn't say that God waits for our first move. I correctly stated that Romans8 was referring to those who loved God, not the unregenerate.
I stated again correctly, that Romans 8 tells us that God predestines those He foreknows will respond to him. And of course Romans 8 is in perfect harmony with Romans 1 because they were both written by Paul.

And Romans1 shows it is God who makes the first move, on everybody, and not just on that select/elect few as is being claimed on this thread.

Every man on the planet is under continual conviction of the Holy Spirit working through creation.
Whether we respond to that, or reject it, that's our freewill choice.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness,
In order to suppress the truth, they must have already received that truth.

19because the known of God is manifest among them, for God has revealed it to them.
The basic truths of God has been revealed to all men, not just "the elect".

20For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen,.....
From Adam onwards, all men are aware of the invisible God, even if they choose to suppress it.

.....being understood by the things made, for them to be without excuse.
Not just seen, but sufficiently understood enabling all men to make that freewill response. Thus there is no excuse for rejection of God.

From beginning to end of all creation, God foreknows every man who will surrender to the conviction of his Spirit.
It is those alone who are predestined to all the promises of Romans 8.

 

[redleghunter]

I wonder if it would helpful to gather a bunch of guys and create a thread outlining each doctrinal points that "Calvinism" teaches from Scripture, beginning with the doctrines of grace and then the arguments surrounding it. One will start the thread with one point, the next will gather information on another, and so on. Maybe this can be helpful and a good reference to bring people who have questions like this.

It's been quite some time since that happened. Drop a thread in Semper Reformda and we can make a general call to work the project. I agree it would be helpful for those who actually want to understand and learn.

I have a buddy who is Classic Arminian who started a thread on contrasting Classic Arminianism with the other junk out there claiming to be Arminian. It got to page two and then he took a hiatus. So something like that for the Doctrines of Grace would be great.

 

[RaymondG]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

I dont believe that we can change the end....But we can change our journey to that end....

 

[redleghunter]

I stated again correctly, that Romans 8 tells us that God predestines those He foreknows will respond to him. And of course Romans 8 is in perfect harmony with Romans 1 because they were both written by Paul.

Does not make sense still. We respond to God and by His foreknowledge He elects us? That in fact is 'us' making the first move towards Him. Again how does that work when we are already dead in our trespasses and needing to become alive in Christ?

And Romans 8 does not say God predestines those who responds to Him. God first loved us, not we first loved God.

 

[Halbhh]

If you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit you can know much much more.

Yes, we understand little without faith even. But, any believer can stumble, even for a long time, like Peter ("Cephas") about gentiles (Galatians chapter 2). It's humble focus on Christ, keeping His words (John 15), praying as he said, 'walking in the spirit' (Romans 8), so that we might be convicted of our wrongs, and turn and be saved.

 

[mark kennedy]

I may be wrong calling Calvinism deterministic, but please tell me the difference from what Calvinists believe and being deterministic.

Mark, tell me in what way Calvinistic election differs from Gnostic election.

Redleghunter, if you follow Augustine you should believe elect can fall away. Concerning the reformers, they were wrong in a lot if things, taught things that the early Church didn't.

I should have just reported your shameless flame, but choose to give you the benifit of a doubt, and you just doubled down. Then you want to perpetuate your error with circular questions. I got a better idea, welcome to my ignore list. Fallacious rhetoric is one thing but being a party to reckless slander is something else entirely.

 

[redleghunter]

And Romans1 shows it is God who makes the first move, on everybody, and not just on that select/elect few as is being claimed on this thread.

You are equating the call of God with His Gospel equivalent with Romans 1 and the "we should know better because we are sons and daughters of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?"

Every man on the planet is under continual conviction of the Holy Spirit working through creation.
Whether we respond to that, or reject it, that's our freewill choice.

This the basic common grace we should all acknowledge as God as our Creator and provider. This is not the Gospel message.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness,
In order to suppress the truth, they must have already received that truth.

Which truth? That we are all condemned sinners? I think a continued look to chapter 2 and especially 3 would cast doubt that we have some innate goodness which allows us to make a choice for God.

19because the known of God is manifest among them, for God has revealed it to them.
The basic truths of God has been revealed to all men, not just "the elect".

Yes like creation, a fined tuned universe, 4 seasons, common grace stuff. I get it but he's not speaking of the Calling of God by the Gospel.

20For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen,.....
From Adam onwards, all men are aware of the invisible God, even if they choose to suppress it.

Ok, no argument there.

.....being understood by the things made, for them to be without excuse.
Not just seen, but sufficiently understood enabling all men to make that freewill response. Thus there is no excuse for rejection of God.

Yep you jumped the gun there. Chapter 1 is not making a case for free will choice, but that we are in bondage to sin and death. The following two chapters show this. And the tone here in chapter one leads to this knowledge condemning us and not leading us to repentance and salvation. That does not come until Romans 3:21 and the verses before it says:

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

From beginning to end of all creation, God foreknows every man who will surrender to the conviction of his Spirit.
It is those alone who are predestined to all the promises of Romans 8.

Sure God does know that. But you are making a point that God chooses those who choose Him first. Can you substantiate that claim and Romans 8 does not help you.

 

[Blade]

We know God is out side of time. Sees the end from the start. We keep thinking GOD thinks acts like we do.. man. He does not. No one can understand this..out side time.. knowing EVERYONE, hearing all those prayers from those that love Him.. on and on. I am sure He sees everything action you will ever do.

I think we look at God as hanging out at the end just waiting..since He knows how its going to end...nope. He is with you right now in the choice you make right now. Some things can not be changed.. aka Satan and toss in the fire. For you and me tomorrow has not come. God may show some the future..yet.. YOU can change it with a choice... .. I believe.. what do I know

 

[zoidar]

I should have just reported your shameless flame, but choose to give you the benifit of a doubt, and you just doubled down. Then you want to perpetuate your error with circular questions. I got a better idea, welcome to my ignore list. Fallacious rhetoric is one thing but being a party to reckless slander is something else entirely.

I don't know why you feel insulted... I'm honestly sad you feel this way .. These were sincere questions... But please report me, then maybe I'll know where I have been wrong ..

 

[Radagast]

So if we live just by faith with out doing any of that stuff, our faith is nullified?

Huh?

 

[Radagast]

There is no such thing as predestination. Like most Protestant beliefs, this manmade tradition is the result of misinterpretation of the Bible.

That's funny, given that Catholics are required to believe in predestination: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestination

 

[zoidar]

Not even close to Biblical predestination. Perhaps argue from the Scriptures?

Here are two passages which are good to examine:

Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

This one is pretty simple I'm sure you would agree. God predetermined the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. It happened at the exact time and place with the people involved. Exactly as God would have it according to His will. He also had foreknowledge of the events as this plan was before the foundations of the Earth. So God planned it and also knew it was going to happen.

Now a bit more difficult:

Acts 4: NASB
27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Picking up on the Acts 2 reference we know the arrest, passion, death and resurrection of Christ was predetermined (a plan) and with foreknowledge of God. Now look what Peter does. He connects the dots between God's plan and foreknowledge and shows there were people involved in this predetermined plan. Peter here shows the sovereign terms of Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Now we have Herod, Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles (Roman soldiers no doubt) and the peoples of Israel are doing whatever God's hand and God's purpose predestined to occur.

Here's the questions:

Did Herod et. al. act as robots or puppets when they were doing whatever the hand of God and His purpose predestined to occur? Meaning were they being forced against their will, in some trance or under some satanic spell of sorts?

Or, were Herod et. al. making choices according to nature or bondage of the will (Romans 6)?

Or did God wait for Herod et. al. to make a free will choice and strike while the iron was hot?

I believe that God predestined according to his foreknowledge. He knew how Pilate was, actually Jesus even presented to him the gospel, and gave him a chance out, but Pilate choose the other way and God used that. I don't think God predestined in the way of affecting peoples free will, but uses peoples choices of free will to get His will done.

 

[zoidar]

Can you show me that? Meaning argue that elect does not mean individuals.

And when or if you do, please tell me if verses 13-14 teach corporate salvation.

I won't go into it, because it's been done so many times allready in other threads.

 

[zoidar]

...

I may be wrong calling Calvinism deterministic, but please tell me the difference from what Calvinists believe and being deterministic.

Mark, tell me in what way Calvinistic election differs from Gnostic election.

Redleghunter, if you follow Augustine you should believe elect can fall away. Concerning the reformers, they were wrong in a lot if things, taught things that the early Church didn't.

Redleghunter, you have still not answered this.

...

Here is somewhat of what I meant concerning the similarities of Calvinistic double predestination and Gnostisism.

‘Classes’ of People: A Relationship Between Gnostic and classical Calvinist/Arminian Understanding of Election? Appropriated from J. Kameron Carter

 

[Halbhh]

Redleghunter, you have still not answered this. Mark obviously got very insulted. Maybe you can answer this question in Marks place since he put me in the ignore list.

Here is somewhat of what I meant.
‘Classes’ of People: A Relationship Between Gnostic and classical Calvinist/Arminian Understanding of Election? Appropriated from J. Kameron Carter

Have you seen this other mainstream interpretation : Corporate election - Wikipedia

 

[His student]

What would be the point of even bothering to write the bible if that were so? What is going to happen would just happen, no matter what. Actually, if predestination was a fact, we might as well be sent straigh to heaven or hell and not even bother with the in between, it would be a waste of time.

Or in short, predestination is ridiculous, and would make us a bunch of no free will robots... don't you believe it.

We absolutely can change our fate. The only thing predestined is what was planned, things like Christ coming to earth, Heaven and Hell, you know the whole salvation plan/deal God gave us , our creation and so forth. What we do, how we end up is all on us. We accept Christ, live right and go to heaven, we don't and we don't.

Did you, perhaps, miss the post just before yours?

It is the proper view of election and yours is just a straw man which no predestination proponent (past or present) believes or teaches.

....it doesn't matter either way, knowing or not changes nothing with our fee will.

I assume that you are speaking of relative free will and not absolute free will - which is not logically possible in view of God being God and us being the creation (having our beings in Him).

That being hopefully the case - your statement is absolutely spot on. It doesn't matter that God knows all things or even predestines all things. You make your choices and reap the results.

Every proponent of predestination teaches exactly that.