Predestination

Bones49

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I have been studying Church History of late, and the lecturer is a Reformed Presbyterian (I have nothing against Presbyterians). I am really enjoying the course, but find my mind stirred by the doctrine of predestination. I had a similar experience last time I studied theology (20 years ago), and so would really love to have an honest discussion with someone who follows reformed theology. I guess part of my problem is that I don't really know what I think with respect to predestination, and so I'm wanting someone to try to convince me that Augustine and Calvin were right ...
 

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I have no argument for or against predestination. It's something I've struggled with until the summer of 2022. John 21:21-22 came to mind. The verses don't concern predestination but following Christ. Jesus had given Peter his "marching orders," and Peter, looking at John, goes "What about him?"

Jesus answered "If I will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me."

I still don't have an answer to predestination, only that if we are drawn to the Lord, we are to follow.
 
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d taylor

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God chooses certain people to service. God does not choose who will and who will not believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. As Romans 5 states

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.


The free gift (Eternal Life) has came to all men. So Eternal Life is available to any person, they just have to simply believe in Jesus to receive this gift, but not all will believe, but it is there for them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Nevermind Augustine and Calvin. Nor anybody else, including me and yourself.

We are here. There's a reason: God, also known as First Cause with Intent.

If God was first, everything else was a result of God causing (i.e. creating). And I don't expect you are going to say that God was ignorant of what would result of his creating when he created. Therefore, everything was intended.

That's a tough pill to swallow, but it makes sense.

And, best of all, it fits Scripture!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I have been studying Church History of late, and the lecturer is a Reformed Presbyterian (I have nothing against Presbyterians). I am really enjoying the course, but find my mind stirred by the doctrine of predestination. I had a similar experience last time I studied theology (20 years ago), and so would really love to have an honest discussion with someone who follows reformed theology. I guess part of my problem is that I don't really know what I think with respect to predestination, and so I'm wanting someone to try to convince me that Augustine and Calvin were right ...
Welcome to CF! I think there is a forum called " ask a Calvinist "? I'll double check that. Meanwhile, my two cents.....be prepared for more uneasiness. This theological branch of Christianity creates confusion. If you read scripture without this lens, " Gods will" will unfold before your eyes. It's not so obvious with this lens even though He directly addresses the issue in this passage.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


If God intended to purposely block some people from believing in Him, then I would say we have a God who really does not love the world.

Think about it.

Blessings
 
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Bones49

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If God was first, everything else was a result of God causing (i.e. creating). And I don't expect you are going to say that God was ignorant of what would result of his creating when he created. Therefore, everything was intended.
OK.
Since you don't expect it, I will consider it. Can the outcome of free will be predetermined? In logic we would say that these two are mutually exclusive. If a result is predetermined then it is fixed and cannot be freely chosen - i.e. the result of free will. The converse is also true, if a result can be freely chosen, then it cannot have been predetermined. So it would seem that God could not predetermine the results of free will which he gave to humanity. The other issue is foreknowledge - could God know beforehand the outcome of free will? I argue no. As below, if God knew that eve would sin, then him not preventing it is sin to him, which we as Christians believe is impossible. Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, such things would be the domain of Non linear dynamic equations, which humanity cannot solve (as such we don't know whether it is possible to solve them). These equation led to the development of chaos theory, because it was seen that at certain points the outcome of these equations cannot be predicted, which is my main point here - it would stand to reason that human free will is so complex that at some point the outcome of free will cannot be predicted - even by God. This does not make God any less omniscient, it is simply a statement that the outcome of free will cannot be known. As far as I know the Bible doesn't give us enough information to actually draw any solid conclusions whether this speculation is wrong or right, so we might just have to leave it there!

To me, if God knew that humanity would sin before he created them, then he is guilty of sin himself. I get this from common law which states that if a person knows that crime will be committed and does nothing to prevent it, that person is guilty of committing the crime, equal to the actual perpetrators. If this justice can be honestly applied to God, then we either saying he is guilty, or not omnipotent.

In any case, aside from this issue, say he knew that people would sin, and that he needed to send Jesus Christ to be a propitiation for that sin. This still is a long way from him predetermining who would accept that offer of salvation, and who would not.
 
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Bones49

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God chooses certain people to service. God does not choose who will and who will not believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. As Romans 5 states

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

The free gift (Eternal Life) has came to all men. So Eternal Life is available to any person, they just have to simply believe in Jesus to receive this gift, but not all will believe, but it is there for them.
I agree. This is what I believe. It seems to me that the idea that God's offer of salvation extends to all humanity, and as such, some cannot be predestined to receive it - because then the offer of salvation really only extends to those few. However the bible does use the words predestination, foreknowledge and elect, reasonably frequently, and simply ignoring them really isn't acceptable at some point. So I'm wrestling with how to interpret these terms in the context which they occur. It seems to me that the term 'elect' refers to the whole church rather than individuals, and the case could be similar for the other terms.
 
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Mark Quayle

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OK.
Since you don't expect it, I will consider it. Can the outcome of free will be predetermined? In logic we would say that these two are mutually exclusive. If a result is predetermined then it is fixed and cannot be freely chosen - i.e. the result of free will. The converse is also true, if a result can be freely chosen, then it cannot have been predetermined. So it would seem that God could not predetermine the results of free will which he gave to humanity. The other issue is foreknowledge - could God know beforehand the outcome of free will? I argue no. As below, if God knew that eve would sin, then him not preventing it is sin to him, which we as Christians believe is impossible. Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, such things would be the domain of Non linear dynamic equations, which humanity cannot solve (as such we don't know whether it is possible to solve them). These equation led to the development of chaos theory, because it was seen that at certain points the outcome of these equations cannot be predicted, which is my main point here - it would stand to reason that human free will is so complex that at some point the outcome of free will cannot be predicted - even by God. This does not make God any less omniscient, it is simply a statement that the outcome of free will cannot be known. As far as I know the Bible doesn't give us enough information to actually draw any solid conclusions whether this speculation is wrong or right, so we might just have to leave it there!

To me, if God knew that humanity would sin before he created them, then he is guilty of sin himself. I get this from common law which states that if a person knows that crime will be committed and does nothing to prevent it, that person is guilty of committing the crime, equal to the actual perpetrators. If this justice can be honestly applied to God, then we either saying he is guilty, or not omnipotent.

In any case, aside from this issue, say he knew that people would sin, and that he needed to send Jesus Christ to be a propitiation for that sin. This still is a long way from him predetermining who would accept that offer of salvation, and who would not.
I agree. This is what I believe. It seems to me that the idea that God's offer of salvation extends to all humanity, and as such, some cannot be predestined to receive it - because then the offer of salvation really only extends to those few. However the bible does use the words predestination, foreknowledge and elect, reasonably frequently, and simply ignoring them really isn't acceptable at some point. So I'm wrestling with how to interpret these terms in the context which they occur. It seems to me that the term 'elect' refers to the whole church rather than individuals, and the case could be similar for the other terms.
Consider a simpler, more straightforward logic. That if something is so, then it is caused to be so by First Cause himself, the only 'uncaused causer'. If there is such a thing as 'free will' it doesn't, then, meet your definition of 'limited absolute autonomy' (if that is your definition), but rather, that our free will is in fact established by God, and so our choosing and our choices are established by God. There is no contradiction. God caused us, and our wills.

Lol, I just finished writing this on another forum:

"Not that my logic is pure, but if First Cause (God) knows something, he caused it to be. God does not set up something he does not understand.

"The entropic scattering of logic, in the notion of God not knowing or not causing what happens, is self-evident. The people I talk to don't go very far down that road in explaining it, but, rather, "appeal to Scripture" for their defense, or so they think they are doing, either from specific references that sound to them as though they oppose God either knowing or causing, or from a logic beginning with an assumed very general scriptural fact such as, 'God is Love'."
 
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SuperCow

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The Bible does not preach predestination. That is inferred by humans who read prophecies of the future and extrapolate that into various definitions of omniscience, will trying to use mind-bending arguments towards having free will. The two are mutually exclusive, and that is because if I know the future, and I create something with full knowledge of what it will do, then I am complicit with the actions of that "something". Furthermore, the creation is then not fully responsible, because I created it in a certain way knowing that it will do something and not the opposite. In other words, if I am created with free will, but my creator knows what I will choose based on the wiring of my brain, or the experiences in my environment or thousands of other variables, then it is not free will, it is a program simulation. And does God have free will? If he can see the absolute future, then he knows what he will do, and therefore even he can't get away from predestination because if he changed his mind, based on what the consequences were, then he would know that he was going to change his mind, and therefore that was predetermined, et cetera, et cetera.

The Bible heavily tilts towards free will in practically every interaction between a human and God. Without it, why even give people a choice? Notice that the first prophecies happen only after both Adam and Eve sin. So what is a prophecy exactly? It is a warning of an intervention by God. If God gives you free will, that doesn't mean he doesn't have the power to intervene and keep his overall plans safe if you make the wrong choice.

Genesis 6:6 - "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."
1 Samuel 15:35 - "And the LORD regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel."

Does an honest reading of these verses sound like God planned for humans to run amuck before the flood, or for King Saul to become evil? Yet he prophesied to Noah that the flood would come. He intervened to save the family of the last righteous man on the planet.

He prophesied to Abraham, but intervened along the way. Joseph's dreams, which led to his brother's hatred and his slavery in Egypt, and again to make him the most powerful man in the world, and for a famine to fulfill that prophecy, and for Moses to free his descendants in dramatic fashion.

I could go on through Biblical history, but the vast majority of the prophecies in the Bible are a result of intervention. Choices were given, but regardless of the path taken, his overall plan would be in place.
 
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Mark Quayle

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OK.
Since you don't expect it, I will consider it.
God is omniscient, or he is not God.
Can the outcome of free will be predetermined?
Logic does not demand that there is free will. Only choice. I happily admit to —in fact, I insist on— real choice, with real, even eternal, consequences.
In logic we would say that these two are mutually exclusive. If a result is predetermined then it is fixed and cannot be freely chosen - i.e. the result of free will. The converse is also true, if a result can be freely chosen, then it cannot have been predetermined. So it would seem that God could not predetermine the results of free will which he gave to humanity.
Then it seems to me you need to show how a thing is freely chosen, either according to your definition of freedom, or of free will, or something explanatory to your point, that 'predetermined' is mutually exclusive with 'free choice'. How is a thing freely chosen? Is not it enough to say a thing is actually chosen?

Calvinism/Reformed Theology usually (I think) teaches that man's will is inextricably tied to his inclinations. I agree —we always choose according to what we are inclined to choose, even if only so for that very instant in which we make a decision.
The other issue is foreknowledge - could God know beforehand the outcome of free will? I argue no.
Since you appeal to logic: How would God be the one and only first cause, (logic demands only one can be first, or there is an implied governing principle to which he is subject, and thus, he is not first cause), yet something come about that he did not know about? Is there a governing principle, perhaps "causation by chance", that caused things he could not predict? 'Causation by chance' is, I hope you can see, self-contradictory.

But Biblically, he is omniscient. And specifically, concerning our thinking: Psalm 147:5; Psalm 139:1-4; Hebrews 4:13; Proverbs 21:1; 1 Kings 8:39, just for starters...

As below, if God knew that eve would sin, then him not preventing it is sin to him, which we as Christians believe is impossible.
How would that be sin for him to fail to stop anyone from sinning? I'm expecting about this point you are starting to see that he operates on a different level from the rest of us.

Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, such things would be the domain of Non linear dynamic equations, which humanity cannot solve (as such we don't know whether it is possible to solve them). These equation led to the development of chaos theory, because it was seen that at certain points the outcome of these equations cannot be predicted, which is my main point here - it would stand to reason that human free will is so complex that at some point the outcome of free will cannot be predicted - even by God.
So, you propose a principle beyond God, who, as far as I know, you still consider to be First Cause? I'm hoping you see the contradiction there. By the way, the fact WE can't predict a thing by no means implies it is actually random. We use such words as shortcut' to "I don't know". If we are too lazy, too limited in time or too lacking in detail to figure out how a thing came about, it is not logical to attribute the same ignorance to God.

By the way, Chaos Theory is stupendous. Not only is 'chaos' hemmed in, but it is unprovable. We only see, "chaotic".
This does not make God any less omniscient, it is simply a statement that the outcome of free will cannot be known. As far as I know the Bible doesn't give us enough information to actually draw any solid conclusions whether this speculation is wrong or right, so we might just have to leave it there!
That does render God less than omniscient. If there is a fact, then God knows it.

(One of my favorite things with which to shake people's confidence in mere "possibility", is the consideration of the fact that throughout all history, we have never had epistemic reason to believe that anything is possible, except whatever actually happens.)
To me, if God knew that humanity would sin before he created them, then he is guilty of sin himself. I get this from common law which states that if a person knows that crime will be committed and does nothing to prevent it, that person is guilty of committing the crime, equal to the actual perpetrators. If this justice can be honestly applied to God, then we either saying he is guilty, or not omnipotent.
It cannot be applied to God, who is himself above this fray causally. He is doing this for his own sake, even for a specific end. This is all for his purposes, including the necessity that there be sin, penalty, and a savior. He is not working against his purposes in causing that there be sin.
In any case, aside from this issue, say he knew that people would sin, and that he needed to send Jesus Christ to be a propitiation for that sin. This still is a long way from him predetermining who would accept that offer of salvation, and who would not.
Well, there is, still, the simple logic of causation to deal with —that if he knew but caused it anyway, he intended it to happen. But, besides that, the doctrine of Election is not drawn out of thin air. The Bible teaches that God chose some, but not all.
 
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d taylor

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I agree. This is what I believe. It seems to me that the idea that God's offer of salvation extends to all humanity, and as such, some cannot be predestined to receive it - because then the offer of salvation really only extends to those few. However the bible does use the words predestination, foreknowledge and elect, reasonably frequently, and simply ignoring them really isn't acceptable at some point. So I'm wrestling with how to interpret these terms in the context which they occur. It seems to me that the term 'elect' refers to the whole church rather than individuals, and the case could be similar for the other terms.
-
Do you have a specific verse or verses in mind
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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I have been studying Church History of late, and the lecturer is a Reformed Presbyterian (I have nothing against Presbyterians). I am really enjoying the course, but find my mind stirred by the doctrine of predestination. I had a similar experience last time I studied theology (20 years ago), and so would really love to have an honest discussion with someone who follows reformed theology. I guess part of my problem is that I don't really know what I think with respect to predestination, and so I'm wanting someone to try to convince me that Augustine and Calvin were right ...
I do not believe in predestination here is one example of why;

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Peace
 
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Bones49

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Welcome to CF! I think there is a forum called " ask a Calvinist "? I'll double check that. Meanwhile, my two cents.....be prepared for more uneasiness. This theological branch of Christianity creates confusion. If you read scripture without this lens, " Gods will" will unfold before your eyes. It's not so obvious with this lens even though He directly addresses the issue in this passage.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


If God intended to purposely block some people from believing in Him, then I would say we have a God who really does not love the world.

Think about it.

Blessings
Thanks. I looked for a while to try to find the right place to post this, and this one seemed the best I found. If there is a better one, that would be great.

Yes, I agree with you. I guess part of my motivation is that predestination has been the theology of the church for most of its history (even if not practiced - I would say that the Catholic church in the middle ages was Augustinian in theory, but not practice). And some very great minds (Calvin, Edwards, Whitefield etc.) have wrestled with this idea, and viewed predestination to be biblical truth. So I am hesitant to dismiss it too lightly.

Yes, I would say that of the three doctrines, Predestination, The omnipotence of God and the love of God, only two of these can be correct. If he is omnipotent and loving, he didn't predestine some people (because his omnipotence would enable him to save everyone?), etc.
 
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enoob57

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Nevermind Augustine
thorough inspection of roots in any matter are a requirement of a good hermeneutic... and Augustine was a Manichean gnostic 10 plus years and came out of that ... Theocracy of hard determinism forces one to be irrational to say the least and Augustine brought this out of his roots...
 
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Bones49

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thorough inspection of roots in any matter are a requirement of a good hermeneutic... and Augustine was a Manichean gnostic 10 plus years and came out of that ... Theocracy of hard determinism forces one to be irrational to say the least and Augustine brought this out of his roots.
Yeah, I really have little knowledge of Augustine, but from what I've seen and heard, he was the heretic. But still the question remains, how the church didn't see him as such, and other Christian greats have gone back to his ideas and promoted them as great Christian doctrines?
 
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Yeah, I really have little knowledge of Augustine, but from what I've seen and heard, he was the heretic. But still the question remains, how the church didn't see him as such, and other Christian greats have gone back to his ideas and promoted them as great Christian doctrines?
As ruling and by force of such- the deterministic theodicy was made acceptable and is the foundation of monergism as the total depravity of Calvinism... it is pin pointed in historical documents that both the Calvinist and non Calvinist recognize as historical fact... it was not seen in any of the early church fathers up and to Augustine in the late 4th and early 5th century...
 
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Mark Quayle

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thorough inspection of roots in any matter are a requirement of a good hermeneutic... and Augustine was a Manichean gnostic 10 plus years and came out of that ... Theocracy of hard determinism forces one to be irrational to say the least and Augustine brought this out of his roots...
I didn't learn what I believe from Augustine.
 
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enoob57

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I didn't learn what I believe from Augustine.
No but those who taught deterministic theocracy did... Historians mark it's entrance in Augustinian writings as it was not found earlier in any of the church writings... Period end of story. It's a fact even your own scholars admit to... written material leaves a trail to the origin of thought through writings.... If you wish to be sure about your soteriology here is where to start
 
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Bones49

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As ruling and by force of such- the deterministic theodicy was made acceptable and is the foundation of monergism as the total depravity of Calvinism... it is pin pointed in historical documents that both the Calvinist and non Calvinist recognize as historical fact... it was not seen in any of the early church fathers up and to Augustine in the late 4th and early 5th century...
Lots of big words that mean very little to me. But still, I will state again, that the Church accepted Augustine's theology, in contrast to other idea (for example Pelagius), which the church discarded as heretical. Calvin is a good 1000 years + away from Augustine, but he was still able to pick up his writings and fully (I guess) agree with them.
The doctrine of justification by grace wasn't seen in any of the church fathers until Augustine either (If I remember correctly?), so do you also believe that this is incorrect?
 
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Mark Quayle

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No but those who taught deterministic theocracy did... Historians mark it's entrance in Augustinian writings as it was not found earlier in any of the church writings... Period end of story. It's a fact even your own scholars admit to... written material leaves a trail to the origin of thought through writings.... If you wish to be sure about your soteriology here is where to start
What I'm saying is I didn't learn it from anyone —(I was not brought up Reformed nor Calvinist)— but I learned what I believe from Scripture, Reason and the utter vanity of the self-determination referred to as "Libertarian Free Will". The assumptions by which I arrive at God's determining all things, almost any believer agrees to, though the self-determinist strays a long ways, in my opinion, from a valid definition of omnipotence and 'sovereignty'.

Monergism was a tough pill to swallow, but in the end it was the only thing that makes sense, and it is the only way for me to have confidence in what God has done and will do. I am completely at God's mercy, and not by the integrity of my will.
 
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