Predestination??

[Reformationist]

To the believer, the Spirit will tell us what He hears from God. To the world the Spirit will convict.

Ummm...the Spirit is God so I'm not sure what you mean. Also, you still haven't shown where Scripture relays what you claim above, nor have you addressed what I said regarding the meaning of "drawn."

Would you mind doing that now?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[calidog]

Ummm...the Spirit is God so I'm not sure what you mean. Also, you still haven't shown where Scripture relays what you claim above, nor have you addressed what I said regarding the meaning of "drawn."

Would you mind doing that now?

Thanks,
God bless

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

as for what Jesus means by "will draw" in
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I'll settle for the english definition and greek definition:
to drag-literally or figuratively.

I can live with that for now.

 

[Reformationist]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

You're familiar with what anthropomorphic speech is, right? You don't actually think that there was some measure of knowledge that the Holy Spirit actually "heard" and that is what He taught, right?

as for what Jesus means by "will draw" in
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I'll settle for the english definition and greek definition:
to drag-literally or figuratively.

I can live with that for now.

And being "dragged, literally or figuratively" means what in a theological sense? I'm trying to ascertain what you understand it means to be "dragged to Christ." What is the result of being "dragged to Christ?"

Thanks,
God bless

 

[calidog]

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You're familiar with what anthropomorphic speech is, right? You don't actually think that there was some measure of knowledge that the Holy Spirit actually "heard" and that is what He taught, right?



And being "dragged, literally or figuratively" means what in a theological sense? I'm trying to ascertain what you understand it means to be "dragged to Christ." What is the result of being "dragged to Christ?"

Thanks,
God bless

yes I am familiar with that anthropomorphic speech.
And yes, I read the bible quite literally. I thank Christ for literally and figuratively dragging me to Him.
It is reasonable that God Who is infinite would speak to us who are finite in terms we can understand.

 

[cygnusx1]

I do not see Christ drawing Judas , Ciaphas or Pilate to Himself , neither do I see him drawing the Amalekites , Pharoah , Esau , Alexander the Blacksmith , nor Cain , Jezabel , King Menaseh , King Saul , Sapphira , Balak , Ishmael , Goliath , Jannes and Jambres , or the anti-Christ !

 

[Reformationist]

I do not see Christ drawing Judas , Ciaphas or Pilate to Himself , neither do I see him drawing the Amalekites , Pharoah , Esau , Alexander the Blacksmith , nor Cain , Jezabel , King Menaseh , King Saul , Sapphira , Balak , Ishmael , Goliath , Jannes and Jambres , or the anti-Christ !

And this is my very point in asking you those questions calidog. I fully agree with you that Christ literally drags me to Him, though I acknowledge that He does so in a way that impels me rather than that of unwanted compulsion. However, you, unlike me, take it a step further and imply that He does so for all men. Clearly, as cygnusx1 so comprehensively points out, not all are actually drawn/dragged to Christ, literally or otherwise so we must either conclude that Christ lied, failed, or that "all men" wasn't referring to "all men without exception." Do you have another possible explanation?

God bless

 

[Normann]

Calvin taught that all are not created equal.

Does this mean that Jews are not as good as whites, or that blacks are not as good as browns, or that only those 6.1 are any good at all?

That's only one lie Calvin taught, there's more.

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rev. 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[mlqurgw]

Calvin taught that all are not created equal.

Does this mean that Jews are not as good as whites, or that blacks are not as good as browns, or that only those 6.1 are any good at all?

That's only one lie Calvin taught, there's more.

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rev. 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Do you actually build your theology from snipits taken out of context? Or do you just expect others to? The Bible is a whole book and what it teaches it teaches as a whole.

 

[Normann]

In order to believe in the teaching of John Calvin we must ignore the following words...

"all" used in scripture over 3500 times...

"whosoever" used in scripture over 145 times...

"any" used in scripture over 700 times...

"whoso" used in scripture over 50 times...

If we apply the same meaning to these words that Calvin followers do we will have nothing more than confusion.


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Reformationist]

Normann, were you going to actually post something worth reading or were you simply going to continue with this trollish tripe?

I ask to save us both some time. If you mean to continue with these irrational and inane comments that show your lack of scholarly approach to the Gospel, please let me know and I'll just put you on ignore and not trouble myself any further.

Thanks

 

[seekingpurity047]

In order to believe in the teaching of John Calvin we must ignore the following words...

"all" used in scripture over 3500 times...

"whosoever" used in scripture over 145 times...

"any" used in scripture over 700 times...

"whoso" used in scripture over 50 times...

If we apply the same meaning to these words that Calvin followers do we will have nothing more than confusion.


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

GG.... totally illogical conclusion.

Obviously, you take these words to mean something that they are not. Whosoever means exactly taht, whosoever. The question is: Who is the whosoever? Same goes with the whoso, and the all, and the any. Honestly... your conclusions hold no water.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[intricatic]

All predestination implies is that God is above time, and that time is immaterial to Him; He already knows the Begining and the End of the book, but we're still writing it.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

All predestination implies is that God is above time, and that time is immaterial to Him; He already knows the Begining and the End of the book, but we're still writing it.

Here is what predestination means;

Romans 8;

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?


Those whom God has called according to HIS Purpose, He has foreloved(foreknowledge), and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, justified them and glorified them.

So, what do we say to that?

If God be for us, who can be against us.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[Dragons87]

Hm....

I see a fundamental problem with even arguing about predestination - WHY DOES IT MATTER?

 

[Normann]

Exodus 19:12
And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

According to Calvin this excludes some...

Ezekiel 33:4
Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

This does not mean what it says according to Calvinist.


Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


Not so according to the Calvinist, only certain ones that speak a word against.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


According to the Calvinist this means only certain ones, not just anyone or whosoever!


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Beoga]

Hm....

I see a fundamental problem with even arguing about predestination - WHY DOES IT MATTER?

What does it matter whether or not we come to a proper understanding of Theology/Doctrine?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Hm....

I see a fundamental problem with even arguing about predestination - WHY DOES IT MATTER?

If God put it in His Word, wouldn't it make sense that it was important?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Exodus 19:12
And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

According to Calvin this excludes some...

Ezekiel 33:4
Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

This does not mean what it says according to Calvinist.


Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


Not so according to the Calvinist, only certain ones that speak a word against.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


According to the Calvinist this means only certain ones, not just anyone or whosoever!


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

And I guess what a word means in context, especially within the context of the entirety of Scripture means nothing, eh?

 

[Beoga]

Exodus 19:12
And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

According to Calvin this excludes some...

Ezekiel 33:4
Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

This does not mean what it says according to Calvinist.


Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


Not so according to the Calvinist, only certain ones that speak a word against.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


According to the Calvinist this means only certain ones, not just anyone or whosoever!


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Wow! The lengths some people will go!
Can you quote Calvinists who say and believe this instead of saying "According to Calvinist...?" You are not a Calvinist, so why should I believe you when you say "According to Calvinists...?"
I don't know why I even asked these questions, you won't fairly respond to them.

 

[Dragons87]

What does it matter whether or not we come to a proper understanding of Theology/Doctrine?

Okay.

My view, summarised:

Whether it is predetermined that we are chosen or it is not, is unimportant for several reasons:

1. It just doesn't matter. As long as we concede that it is God who chooses in the end, why does it matter who chooses now?

2. We don't know who God will choose in the end, that's why (plus explicit Divine commands) we should spread the message of repentence to everybody, regardless of whether they repent/chosen to repent in the end. This is the Christian calling. The Christian mission. If one person repents, does it matter who made him/her repent?