Predestination??

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Okay.

My view, summarised:

Whether it is predetermined that we are chosen or it is not, is unimportant for several reasons:

1. It just doesn't matter. As long as we concede that it is God who chooses in the end, why does it matter who chooses now?

Try this one on for size; it matters because when it is acknowledged that God chooses in His Sovereign Grace and according to His Own Good Purposes, then it is God who is Glorified, and man humbled and kept from the delusion of being good enough to choose God.

Proverbs 3;
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart,
4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths.



And as Paul says, "What shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us."

To the Christian hearing that, who was facing persecution, often times horrible, mutilating, torturous death, those were very comforting words.

2. We don't know who God will choose in the end, that's why (plus explicit Divine commands) we should spread the message of repentence to everybody, regardless of whether they repent/chosen to repent in the end. This is the Christian calling. The Christian mission. If one person repents, does it matter who made him/her repent?

That's right.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Wow! The lengths some people will go!
Can you quote Calvinists who say and believe this instead of saying "According to Calvinist...?" You are not a Calvinist, so why should I believe you when you say "According to Calvinists...?"
I don't know why I even asked these questions, you won't fairly respond to them.

Maybe he has his PHD(Piled Higher and Deeper) degree in theology.

 

[Dragons87]

Try this one on for size; it matters because when it is acknowledged that God chooses in His Sovereign Grace and according to His Own Good Purposes, then it is God who is Glorified, and man humbled and kept from the delusion of being good enough to choose God.


To the Christian hearing that, who was facing persecution, often times horrible, mutilating, torturous death, those were very comforting words.

Mm hm. I see the logic. But, just to raise a counterargument, myself not necessarily believing in it:

Won't God also be glorified if it was us humans who choose to abandon our sinful nature and turn to God - 'cause God is just so good!! ?

 

[seekingpurity047]

Mm hm. I see the logic. But, just to raise a counterargument, myself not necessarily believing in it:

Won't God also be glorified if it was us humans who choose to abandon our sinful nature and turn to God - 'cause God is just so good!! ?

No, becuase it displays taht we do the work, and trust in ourselves to choose something taht no human on the face of the earth actually desires (unless God regenerates them) Rom. 3

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Mm hm. I see the logic. But, just to raise a counterargument, myself not necessarily believing in it:

Won't God also be glorified if it was us humans who choose to abandon our sinful nature and turn to God - 'cause God is just so good!! ?

That does not show God's goodness, but yours, so, no you are glorified, not God.

By the way, it's not logic, although it is logical.

It is what Scripture teaches.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No, becuase it displays taht we do the work, and trust in ourselves to choose something taht no human on the face of the earth actually desires (unless God regenerates them) Rom. 3

To the glory of God,

Randy

Exactly, as John says so clearly in John 3, Jesus is The Light, and man does not come to The Light because he loves darkness.

 

[Dragons87]

That does not show God's goodness, but yours, so, no you are glorified, not God.

By the way, it's not logic, although it is logical.

It is what Scripture teaches.

Hmm..interesting.

Personally I don't know how far God's direct influence stops and human free will begins.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Hmm..interesting.

Personally I don't know how far God's direct influence stops and human free will begins.

Go here:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/regeneration.html

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html

 

[Dragons87]

Go here:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/regeneration.html

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html

Thanks!

 

[Dragons87]

Go here:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/regeneration.html

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html

Hmmm...goody.

I agree with you that it takes the Holy Spirit to change our hearts - now that makes me even more motivated to spread the Word! The Truth!

Lol. Whoever and however God chooses, I don't know. All I know that He told me to spread the Word, and by God, that's what I'm gonna do. I'll let Him decide in the end.

Amen.

 

[DavetheProphet]

I believe God gave people free will. He wanted us to choose Him and follow Him by our own choice. He wouldn't have hand picked who goes where because that's His decision, not ours, and He wants His creations to love Him freely, not because He made it so they would. He is all powerful, and when He made us He could see through time already and know exactly what are lives were going to be and where we would end up. But He didn't make us with a destiny, He made us uniquely and individually and we choose based upon that how we will live.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Hmmm...goody.

I agree with you that it takes the Holy Spirit to change our hearts - now that makes me even more motivated to spread the Word! The Truth!

Lol. Whoever and however God chooses, I don't know. All I know that He told me to spread the Word, and by God, that's what I'm gonna do. I'll let Him decide in the end.

Amen.

We do not know whom God has chosen, but as you have correctly understood, God has commissioned His people to reach the Elect through preaching the Gospel. So, we preach the Gospel to every creature.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I believe God gave people free will. He wanted us to choose Him and follow Him by our own choice. He wouldn't have hand picked who goes where because that's His decision, not ours, and He wants His creations to love Him freely, not because He made it so they would. He is all powerful, and when He made us He could see through time already and know exactly what are lives were going to be and where we would end up. But He didn't make us with a destiny, He made us uniquely and individually and we choose based upon that how we will live.

Adam and Eve had genuine free will. Everyone born of Adam is born with a corrupted will in bondage to the sin nature inhertited from Adam, one that is at war with God, hates God and does not desire God, nor can understand the things of God, and indeed finds the things of God to be utter foolishness.

That is why one must be born from above(born again), as John says, born not of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but born of God.

That new birth is theologically called, "regeneration", without it, we are dead in our tresspasses and sins.

 

[Reformationist]

Exodus 19:12
And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

According to Calvin this excludes some...

And according to Normann "whosoever" means "everyone without exception?" You see, in your unbridled attempt to discredit reformed doctrine, something at which you fail miserably, you make unfounded accusations and illogical statements. Despite being a reformed Christian and regularly discussing these topics in the reformed community, I have never heard a Calvinist claim that "whosoever" excludes someone. What we do acknowledge is that "whosoever" does not mean "all people without exception." Even those who disagree with our position acknowledge that "whosoever" is not synonymous with "all people without exception." Let's look at a well known example:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)

Now, you and I may disagree on who the "whosoever" are. We may even disagree on why they're the "whosoever." However, unless you espouse that everyone without exception will believe in Him, you acknowledge that the "whosoever" is limited. Are you with me so far?

I'll refrain from addressing the rest of the verses you quote out of context in the interest of mutually beneficial discussion on the topic of "whosoever."

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I believe God gave people free will. He wanted us to choose Him and follow Him by our own choice. He wouldn't have hand picked who goes where because that's His decision, not ours, and He wants His creations to love Him freely, not because He made it so they would. He is all powerful, and when He made us He could see through time already and know exactly what are lives were going to be and where we would end up. But He didn't make us with a destiny, He made us uniquely and individually and we choose based upon that how we will live.

While I fully understand why people feel this way (for man loves to have his ears tickled), there never seems to be a shortage of people that want to credit the creation with being the master of his own destiny. All glory for the creation for making the proper choice. Truly sad. One of the saddest things of all is that those who claim such an untruth believe they are doing God a service by softening the blow to His eternal design by saying, "God is more glorified when a person is saved because they chose Him freely." :o

 

[DavetheProphet]

While I fully understand why people feel this way (for man loves to have his ears tickled), there never seems to be a shortage of people that want to credit the creation with being the master of his own destiny. All glory for the creation for making the proper choice. Truly sad. One of the saddest things of all is that those who claim such an untruth believe they are doing God a service by softening the blow to His eternal design by saying, "God is more glorified when a person is saved because they chose Him freely." :o

What I'm saying is he didn't create robots. I'm not saying I'm in control, but I'm not saying that God chooses to control every aspect of what we do, otherwise we would be no different than anything else he has created. It's an amazing concept, something I don't think we as humans with our narrow minds can grasp fully. Looking at it one way, we're totally independent and God sits back and watches us (no way). The other way, we're totally controlled by God, and everything we do totally steered by Him. I think it might be a mix. It's His will that things be a certain way and He guides those who choose to surrender to Him (Christians). Sometimes we fall, and i don't believe God makes us fall, we fall ourselves. Those that do evil in this world I don't believe are being controlled by God either. He could, He doesn't make someone do wrong. Why would He make someone sin and then be mad at them? It's in between, He intervenes when necessary and guides the lives of those who follow Him. I'm currently trying to understand this area better, it's a slightly gray area for me (and I don't like gray areas)...

 

[ContraMundum]

I really think you guys haven't answered the questions that some of us are curious about from your unique points of view.

Here's some questions for all of you. I'd like to hear answers about these if you guys can.

a) Is the Greek parsing of "protasso" in Acts 13:48 in middle voice or passive? This poses a problem for Calvinists if it is in middle voice. By the way- don't just cut and paste from another site to answer. You'll find opinions on both side of the argument.

b) What does Jesus mean in Jn 3:8 and how does that reflect on the whole election/predestination debate?

c) Is God's "Sovereign decree" that only those who believe the Gospel shall be saved and the unbelievers condemned or it is that His decree is His picking and choosing who and who will not be saved? Give clear, precise Bible citations. No disputable texts, please.

d) For Wesleyan-Arminians (as opposed to plain old Arminians)- if God awakens the souls of men in order that they may respond to the Gospel, does He use means or is this done without means? (I know what Wesley said, but I'm curious what modern Methodists say)

e) Could both Calvin and Arminius have been wrong?

 

[seekingpurity047]

It's His will that things be a certain way and He guides those who choose to surrender to Him (Christians)

Now, I agree that He guides us who are believers, and those whom He wants to believe (for He will save them by His irresistable grace). But the problem is with the word choose.

God granted Adam free will, I totally believe that, however, after the fall, Adam's free will became bound to sin, just as he was thrown out of the garden. When he was thrown out of the garden with eve, who also became bound to sin, he could not enter the garden anymore... kind of funny how Genesis puts it. From the point of the fall on, man could never EVER EVER choose God by his own free will because his free will is bound.

Hey, i believe in free will as much as the next guy, like... i believe it was this thread that someone put the Liver and Onions analogy (from his blog, that is). Hey, you have a free will, yah... a free will to sin.

Basically, unregenerate man's free will is to choose whatever sin you want to commit, becuase whatever the unregenerate man does is sin (i think I have already explained this). Verses. Rom. 8:7-8; Rom. 14:23.

Go ahead, choose whatever sin you want to do, because no man, unless regenerated by God (John 3, etc.) can do good in God's sight.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[ContraMundum]

What I'm saying is he didn't create robots. I'm not saying I'm in control, but I'm not saying that God chooses to control every aspect of what we do, otherwise we would be no different than anything else he has created. It's an amazing concept, something I don't think we as humans with our narrow minds can grasp fully. Looking at it one way, we're totally independent and God sits back and watches us (no way). The other way, we're totally controlled by God, and everything we do totally steered by Him. I think it might be a mix. It's His will that things be a certain way and He guides those who choose to surrender to Him (Christians). Sometimes we fall, and i don't believe God makes us fall, we fall ourselves. Those that do evil in this world I don't believe are being controlled by God either. He could, He doesn't make someone do wrong. Why would He make someone sin and then be mad at them? It's in between, He intervenes when necessary and guides the lives of those who follow Him. I'm currently trying to understand this area better, it's a slightly gray area for me (and I don't like gray areas)...

The simple answer is this: He gave us freewill over temporal things, but that our depraved, sinful spirit is His enemy ("at emnity with God"), running away from Him as fast as it can. Only through His action can we be brought from death to life. The point of contention between you and other honest thinkers like "reformationist" is when and how that happens.

The Lutheran Confessions teach a sound doctrine on this, something I think both Arminian and Calvinist could (and should) agree with. The Augsburg Confession says "...that man's will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2,14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received through the Word." (Art XVIII)

 

[ContraMundum]

Basically, unregenerate man's free will is to choose whatever sin you want to commit, becuase whatever the unregenerate man does is sin (i think I have already explained this). Verses. Rom. 8:7-8; Rom. 14:23.

Go ahead, choose whatever sin you want to do, because no man, unless regenerated by God (John 3, etc.) can do good in God's sight.

Augustine clarifies this:

Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: "We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good or evil. "Good" I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. "Evil" I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc."

(Cited in the Augsburg Confession, same article as above)