Predestination??

[Reformationist]

that word "choose" is not there but you must choose to believe. you can't believe if you choose not to believe. perhaps we could say that it was a command "Believe in the Lord." but you still must choose to do what is commanded.

True belief, true faith, is not the product of man's choice. You may "choose" to obey. You may "choose" to recognize the authority of God. You may "choose" to live by what you believe. However, believing in God is not the product of choice. If it were, you'd surely have something about which to boast over those whom did not "choose" to believe, for your correct choice led to your salvation.

If this concept is such an important part of the process, why is it that it is not mentioned once in the Bible? Not once Steve. When you share the Gospel, are you really walking away thinking that the person with whom you just shared the Gospel can actually believe if they just choose to do so?

The irony here is that you actually acknowledge the type of statement that "believe on the Lord" is. It is an imperative statement. God commands mankind to believe in Him and obey Him. This He does in spite of man's inherent inability to do so apart from God's grace. This is not an indicative statement, i.e., a statement referencing man's inherent ability to obey.

God bless

 

[cygnusx1]

Next time you commit a sin, ask yourself why you chose the sin rather than God.

And then you will have your answer.

because the Flesh is weak ............ this hardly makes an arguement for faith ....... Faith is trusting because we have been given an inner assurance that Christ is True and worth trusting.

 

[lmnop9876]

I don't know if this has been said, but a lot of people seem to misunderstand the meaning of predestination. they think predestinatio is God's actual act of choosing His people, i.e. they think the Reformed belief is that God randomly assigned people to Heaven and Hell. this is wrong. God chose us. those who He had chosen, He 'pre-destined' (i.e. fixed their destiny before) as Heaven and everlasting life. those who He had not chosen, those who would reject Him, He 'pre-destined', (i.e. fixed their destiny before) to everlasting punishment.

 

[edie19]

I might also add that education has really hurt Christianity, in my opinion. Most (not all) of the college professors I have talked to laugh at the idea of Chrisianity. As scientists they are very convinced that we evolved from something and because of that belief they are teach that God is not true. Just look at the number of "chirstians" that leave the church after they start college.

There was a time when Christians both valued and encouraged higher education. Most of the great colleges were either founded by churches or had founding philosphies consistent with Christianity. However, if we're honest we abdicated our role in higher education. We chose "Bible colleges" instead of universities with a wider range of degrees, we separated ourselves from the world when it came to education. Same thing goes with the media - we quit encouraging our kids to get degrees in journalism. College professors and journalists (and probably many other fields) became the "bad guys." Now we whine about the fact that both universities and the media are liberal and/or anti-Christian. But we stood quietly by, covered our eyes and ears while it was happening.

 

[Normann]

that word "choose" is not there but you must choose to believe. you can't believe if you choose not to believe. perhaps we could say that it was a command "Believe in the Lord." but you still must choose to do what is commanded.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[Reformationist]

repented
(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Tell me calidog, what does it mean to be "drawn" to Christ, as the term is used in this verse and is that something that is truly done to all men without exception?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[oworm]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Who is that statement addressed to in the context of the passage?

 

[Reformationist]

First of all, I never said that our enviornments prohibit God from anything.

Let's look at how that discussion progressed:

I asked, "Why do some love the darkness while others who choose to believe love the light."

You responded with, "I believe that there are many reasons why some people choose to remain in the darkness while others prefer the light."

You claimed that the beliefs they were raised with, either heretical or orthodox, played a part in "why some people choose to remain in the darkness while others prefer the light."

You then claimed that the type of education a person is exposed to plays a part in "why some people choose to remain in the darkness while others prefer the light."

You then stated that the things we encounter, numerous as they are, "make us more likely to believe or likely not to believe."

Then, you stated, "Besides all of the environmental factors there is God."

Now, I am well aware that you did not state that these "environmental factors" prohibit God from anything. However, the entire post was relaying how all of these things explain "why some people choose to remain in the darkness while others prefer the light." If your intent wasn't to enlighten me that these things cause someone to remain in darkness, what, pray tell, was your intent? You see Steve, instead of getting all spun up and defensive, you should carry your own views to their logical conclusion. I asked you, point blank, why some people come to faith and others remain obstinate against God. Simple. To the point. I simply want to know why you think some people end up believing while others don't. You listed all these "environmental factors" and then seemed to get aggravated that I took such a view to its logical conclusion. I never once denied that our enviornments don't affect the way we view life and the way we view God. Of course they do. However, when acknowledging such a truth, we must also acknowledge that the place, time, and circumstances of our birth, life, and death are not random, chaotic events. It is God who establishes all these things. They are all in His control. So, if our environment keeps us from coming to faith, it's not coincidence.

So, I'll put it in a more personal way. Why did the message that you heard lead you to faith while others who, no doubt, heard that same message, were deaf to it? Were you just smarter? More humble? More gullible? More "open" to the Spirit? What is different about you than those who remain in their unbelief?

However, it would be foolish to claim that our enviornments don't affect the way we view life and the way we view God. Your question was why do people choose darkness - I said that part (not all) of that is due to the way they are raised.

Is that "part" of why they choose darkness out of God's sovereign control?

You seem to think that God letting people make choices some how interferes with His sovereignty - it most certainly does not! God can be sovereign and let people make choices at the same time.

That isn't even close to what I think. I have repeatedly stated that man is a volitional creature and, as such, must make choices. I have also repeatedly stated that God is sovereign. This is contrary to what you claim above. What I deny is that man's choices in any way regulate God's sovereign ability to accomplish His purposes. Man proposes but God disposes. Or, in biblical terms:

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Let's consider this for a moment.

Perhaps we can all agree that we started out as unbelievers.

Yes. I agree, though I acknowledge that there are many that the Lord has blessed with such a family that they do not actually remember a time in their lives that they did not have faith.

You say that unbelievers like to be in the darkness. My question is this: if they like the darkness why do they ever change?

They change because God works in them by regenerating them. When they are regenerated from death in their sins to life in Christ their spiritual polarity is changed. It naturally results from the regenerative work of God that one who has been made alive in Christ now desires to serve and obey Christ in love, whereas before, when dead in their trespasses and sins, they sought only to serve themselves.

If you say that it was because God called them, then did they believe as soon as God called them?

I would say yes, to a certain extent. Many, who have not been trained in the Scriptures as they grew up, did not know what to believe about God.

And if they believed as soon as God called them, were they instantly saved at that moment?

Salvation is spoken of in different ways in the Bible, i.e., eternally, progressively, and finally. A person is eternally saved when the Lord graciously condescends to impute the righteousness of Christ to the person by faith.

God bless

 

[calidog]

Tell me calidog, what does it mean to be "drawn" to Christ, as the term is used in this verse and is that something that is truly done to all men without exception?

Thanks,
God bless

at this point I believe it means, in effect, that all men will know about Him. Probably, more precisely, He may be referring to the work of the Holy Spirit. That's the sense I get reading from the KJV+. I know the following verse signifies this would be the type of death which I believe John is refering to the prophecies about the cross. I know we tend to think that some will die ignorant of Christ, But what I'm learning here chasing scripture is that God is going to reveal Him to every soul. Amazing.

 

[calidog]

I don't know if this has been said, but a lot of people seem to misunderstand the meaning of predestination. they think predestinatio is God's actual act of choosing His people, i.e. they think the Reformed belief is that God randomly assigned people to Heaven and Hell. this is wrong. God chose us. those who He had chosen, He 'pre-destined' (i.e. fixed their destiny before) as Heaven and everlasting life. those who He had not chosen, those who would reject Him, He 'pre-destined', (i.e. fixed their destiny before) to everlasting punishment.

pretty good for a seventeen year old. Don't let anyone talk you out of that.

 

[mlqurgw]

Reformationist has done a fine job of answering but since you directed it to me I will answer.

Let's consider this for a moment.

Perhaps we can all agree that we started out as unbelievers. You say that unbelievers like to be in the darkness.

Actually Jesus said it:



Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

My question is this: if they like the darkness why do they ever change?

Simply because God changes them:

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



It is God who changes them for His names sake.

If you say that it was because God called them, then did they believe as soon as God called them?

They believed because the Spirit convinces them. This I hope will also answer Calidog as I promised;

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The Spirit convinces the chosen sinner that he is a sinner. He convinces him that unbelief is the most heinous of sins.

Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

The Spirit convinces the chosen sinner of righteousness because He causes them to see that God is both just and the justifier of them that believe. He makes them see that God has upheld His righteousness in the death of Christ and is satisfied, signifying such by raising Christ from the dead.

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Spirit convinces of judgment but making the sinner see that he has been judged in Christ. Judgment no longer is a fearful thing because Christ has won the victory.

And if they believed as soon as God called them, were they instantly saved at that moment?

The elect were saved in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world:


God;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:



They were saved in time when Christ died and are being saved throughout their lives. They come to know and believe that they are saved when the Spirit does His work. Salvation is the work of God for the chosen sinner which was purposed before time began, accomplished in time by Christ Jesus the Lord, and applied to the heart of the sinner in the appointed hour.

If they were not instantly saved then they were still in the darkness and they would like it that way - so why change. If they are instantly saved, I am curious how.

Darkness is unbelief. Believers do not walk in darkness.



1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Reformationist]

Next time you commit a sin, ask yourself why you chose the sin rather than God.

And then you will have your answer.

Well then, I would answer that, in the times when I sin, I do so because I desire that which God has forbidden more than I desire to obey Him.

If that is synonymous with your answer to my question then it would look like this:

I asked, "Why do some choose to believe while others prefer to remain in the darkness?"

Your response, then, is that, "They do so because they desire the darkness rather than coming to faith."

And here we have simply the same issue that we had prior to my question, for now I must ask, "Why do some desire the darkness rather than coming to faith when others, such as yourself, clearly desired to come to faith." What makes you different?

 

[Reformationist]

at this point I believe it means, in effect, that all men will know about Him. Probably, more precisely, He may be referring to the work of the Holy Spirit. That's the sense I get reading from the KJV+. I know the following verse signifies this would be the type of death which I believe John is refering to the prophecies about the cross. I know we tend to think that some will die ignorant of Christ, But what I'm learning here chasing scripture is that God is going to reveal Him to every soul. Amazing.

You understand helkuo to mean "to know about Him?" Pray tell, where did you glean that definition? You seem to touch on a deeper meaning of the word by claim that it probably refers to the work of the Holy Spirit. However, you do not define what this work is or what it results in.

Care to do so now?

God bless

 

[calidog]

You understand helkuo to mean "to know about Him?" Pray tell, where did you glean that definition? You seem to touch on a deeper meaning of the word by claim that it probably refers to the work of the Holy Spirit. However, you do not define what this work is or what it results in.

Care to do so now?

God bless

well, it means draw. When He said after He is raised-uo He would send the Spirit and the Spirit would listen to Him. In that sense Jesus would be speaking through the Spirit. We know what the Spirit will testify to.

 

[Reformationist]

well, it means draw.

"Draw" is a word who's significance many people on this MB fail to realize. That verse you cite, John 12:32, states that Jesus will draw all men to Himself. Now, if we are going to apply a universal meaning to "all men" we must determine what it means to be "drawn." The word helkuo means, "to draw, drag off; to draw by inward power, lead, impel." Now, I don't contend that the Lord drags someone, kicking and screaming to Him. However, to say "it means draw" is a bit insufficient for determining what it means to be drawn.

Can you elaborate?

When He said after He is raised-uo He would send the Spirit and the Spirit would listen to Him.

Can you cite where He says that the Spirit would listen to Him?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[calidog]

To the believer, the Spirit will tell us what He hears from God. To the world the Spirit will convict.

 

[lmnop9876]

pretty good for a seventeen year old. Don't let anyone talk you out of that.

thanks.
I'm actually just trying to explain the Reformed viewpoint a bit better. It's not as though God's just randomly gone, "Jo to Hell, John to Heaven, Bill to Hell, Bob to Heaven." God chose some people, not because of anything in them, but out of His grace. these ones He "predestined" to everlasting life, the others, who were left to themselves and rejected Him, He "predestined" to everlasting punishment.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Reformationist]

To the believer, the Spirit will tell us what He hears from God. To the world the Spirit will convict.

Is this directed at me? If so, I have no clue what it is in response to.

Also, do you think you could address my questions from my previous post?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[calidog]

"Draw" is a word who's significance many people on this MB fail to realize. That verse you cite, John 12:32, states that Jesus will draw all men to Himself. Now, if we are going to apply a universal meaning to "all men" we must determine what it means to be "drawn." The word helkuo means, "to draw, drag off; to draw by inward power, lead, impel." Now, I don't contend that the Lord drags someone, kicking and screaming to Him. However, to say "it means draw" is a bit insufficient for determining what it means to be drawn.

Can you elaborate?



Can you cite where He says that the Spirit would listen to Him?

Thanks,
God bless

To the believer, the Spirit will tell us what He hears from God. To the world the Spirit will convict.