Predestination??

[cygnusx1]

[sign]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ... John 6:44 [/sign]

 

[BBAS 64]

funny - you know I can't do that. people don't choose to be saved they choose to accept the salvation that God gives them.

I will submit this passage - altough I doubt we will see it the same way.

Acts 16:30-32 "30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house." (NIV - bold is mine)

so, what must we do? believe! We must choose to believe so we can be saved.

Good Day, Brother Steve

The text says believe in the Lord...

Where in the text is the word "choose?"

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[strengthinweakness]

But like I said before, if a person who most wants to be away from God (the source of morality), doing something morally praiseworthy would be quite the opposite of what he actually wanted (thus it is not “best” for that person).



In scripture, hyperbolic language is used quite frequently to illustrate extremities. That’s what you find in these two cases: everyone is enslaved to sin (in the sense that sin has condemned them), sure, but sin is not all they do.



Another one of the Calvinists’ favorite passages. We were dead in our sins because we had already rebelled against God – our choice had already been made and there was no coming back, just as there is no coming back from being dead. Yet Christ gave people a second opportunity and for those who were willing, God “raised them to life” (for there is no sense in raising a corpse who is bent on being dead).



Spiritually dead refers to the status of people without Christ – they have sinned (made their decision of rejection) and so if left to their own devises from there on out, they perish because of that decision. This is not to say that their wills are dead to goodness or that they have lost all potential for good choices – that part is read into the text by those with Calvinistic theologies.



But the question arises, “What does God base His decision on who to elect/save and who He leaves to rot?” Every Calvinist here has said “His purposes and will,” but that is nothing more than a euphemistic way of saying “favoritism.” The bullet still hasn’t been dodged. Further still, it is more glorious to have your enemies join your side than to mow them down like grass. The Calvinists’ God has taken the lesser of the glories in this respect because He did not save all He could.



I’ve already been through this with our friend Reformationist. To condemn the wicked is fair for sure. However, God has decided to show mercy to at least some, but in order to be fair, He has to give the same mercy to everyone He can, else He is not being fair in His distribution of mercy. It’s like a parent whose two sons were put in jail for the same crime and he only chose to bail one out when he could have bailed both out. No fair parent would do such a thing, so why do people insist that the ultimate just being would?



Quite right.



I’m sure if you asked the vast majority of atheists and nonbelievers, they would tell you they do not wish to go to hell (civilians who do not wish to drown). In this respect, the analogy stands: God neglects to save those who need saving and want to be saved. Further still, since when does the will of a person matter at all to the Calvinist? In the Calvinists’ scenario, everyone wants to drown, so why does God save only some if He truly is all good? By your previous analogy of the surgeon and the brain-damaged man, these people aren’t thinking clearly; they are patients to be cured, not enemies to be crushed. For God to neglect saving them when He could would make Him not all good.




I’m defining goodness by the standards of scripture: loving your neighbor as yourself, acting our principles such as charity, selflessness, honor, patience, respect, etc., so for your to say that all these things are merely my “own subjective standards” is clearly a straw man. Plenty of nonbelievers do these very things without ever thinking to themselves “I am doing this with the understanding of the correct doctrinal presuppositions.”



But again, I’ve already been through that passage when Reformationist brought it up. In a nutshell, it’s not talking about “You have to be thinking the right theological thoughts whenever you do an action, else it is sin;” rather, it is saying that your moral actions must line up with the very nature of God (“from faith”), specifically in the context of being considerate to your neighbor.



From the understanding you seem to have in the “from faith” phrase, you could a nonbeliever who pushed an elderly nun out of the way of a speeding car and, in the process, got hit himself was paralyzed from the neck down and tell him that what he did was sin. I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy that.



This would be true only if they did nothing good, yet every time someone chooses to do something good for the sake of goodness, they are in a very real sense choosing God (that is, goodness itself).



You should really talk with some non-believers some time. It might enlighten you that they’re not these savages with no sense of moral goodness who desire only to do evil.



God is a God of consistency and would not tell us to do good and then turn around and do the exact opposite Himself. When God spells it out that lying is wrong, that does not mean it’s okay for God to lie. The list goes on.



This would be true only if it were not beneficial to Job in the end. Ultimately, all of those things worked for Job’s good in the end, so God was very good to him. There are times when a great amount of good can only be accomplished by going through a smaller amount of evil and an entirely good being would realize this. Yet this cannot be the case for those whom God neglects to eternal damnation – they have an eternal bad waiting for them simply because God didn’t care enough to save them.

Jedi, I hardly know where to begin with your post, and since you have said you're not coming back to this thread, maybe I am just talking to myself here. However, the fact is, there are so many theological errors and misunderstandings in this post that I cannot just allow them to stand.

As he has done in previous posts, Jedi again misunderstands that, when I speak of a so-called "free choice" to believe in God as being a morally praiseworthy choice, I am speaking from the standpoint of God's revealed, objective morality. I am not referring to what might or might not be "best" in terms of anyone's subjective morality. In the objective, definitive terms of Christian morality, a so-called "free choice" to believe in God would be by far the best choice that anyone could ever make-- and thus, such a choice would be worthy of praise, which would mean that the one making the choice would actually be contributing something to his/her salavation... if a depraved, dead-in-sin human being could ever actually make such a free choice.

Jedi thinks that our sinful human condition is described in a "hyperbolic way" in the Bible. Therefore, being "enslaved to sin" means that we can still do some really good things! Being "dead in sin" means that our wills are not actually dead to goodness! However, as I stated earlier, Scripture states that whatever is not done out of faith in Christ (in terms of moral actions) is sin. Those who are not trusting in Christ for their salvation are not doing anything out of faith in Him-- therefore, everything that they do, in terms of moral actions, is sin. Such a condition is dead to goodness. (An aside on another of Jedi's comments: As for God not raising to life "the corpse who is bent on being dead," we are all corpses who are bent on being dead, until He chooses to save His elect! Is there any such thing in the Bible as a "spiritual corpse" who wants to live?? If the corpse wants to live, it is no longer a corpse-- it has already been raised to life!) Biblically speaking, the non-believer simply cannot do anything truly good, i.e. anything which pleases God. As Scripture clearly says, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." (italics my emphasis) Therefore, the atheist who saves someone from a burning building is praiseworthy from a civic viewpoint, but his action is not morally pleasing to God, because it is not done out of faith in God. Of course, it is better for the atheist to save the person than not to save him/her, but such an action still does not fit the Biblical criteria for being pleasing to God, because it does not come from faith. Jedi redefines "from faith" as supposedly meaning "being lined up with the very nature of God," but that simply makes no sense at all. In the Bible, "from faith" clearly means "faith in God." Atheists do not act from faith in God, because they have none. They never "do good for the sake of goodness," because God is goodness, and they don't believe in Him.

Jedi states that, pertaining to God's sovereign election and predestination, it is "more glorious to have your enemies join your side than to mow them down like grass." How does God mercifully saving sinners on the road to Hell translate to Him "mowing them down like grass??" Were they to go to Hell, they would be truly be "mowed down like grass!!" As it is, however, God, in His unfathomable mercy, has chosen to save some sinners from the pit of Hell. He would have been perfectly just to save none of us. Jedi seems to think that if God is sovereign over salvation, in order for Him to be merciful and fair, He has to save either all of us or none of us! He is God. He owes no one anything. If He saves some people, then the saved must cry out, "You are merciful, O God!" If He saved no one, then the rocks would have to testify, "You are just, O Lord!" (Bear in mind that the reprobate, by definition, will never see God as being just in damning them.) Jedi writes that he is sure "that if you asked the vast majority of atheists and non-believers, they would say they do not wish to go to Hell." However, they would be either be liars or being hypocrites to say so, because in constantly rejecting God, they are choosing Hell over Heaven every day of their lives! Heaven is ultimately Paradise for the believer because God is there. For the non-believer who dies without repenting of his sin and trusting in Christ, Hell is the the ultimate ratification of what he has wanted for his entire life. It is being left in one's sins, in complete separation from God, for eternity.

Lastly (for this post), Jedi states that if a non-believer is said to be committing sin when pushing a nun out of the way of a speeding car, then he (Jedi) "just doesn't buy that." However, again, the Bible tells us that whatever is not of faith is sin. As the non-believer has no faith, whatever he does is sin, from God's perspective, including saving a nun's life. The human heart is wicked. Christians themselves often do not do "good deeds" purely out of faith in God. (I know that I don't!) According to God, this is sin-- and if Christians who do have faith in Him are sometimes guilty of not acting from faith, then atheists who do not believe in Him are always guilty of it... even when doing "good deeds." ("Good" from a human perspective, that is.) However, Jedi "doesn't buy that." Again, it seems to be a case of simply believing what one wants to believe, humanly speaking (what seems most "reasonable"), rather than what the Bible clearly states.

I really do hope that Jedi will visit again and read this reply, because I hate the feeling of addressing his comments and observations, all the while knowing that he may not be back to answer for himself. However, as I said at the start of this post, I just could not allow error to stand unanswered. It's funny-- Jedi said in his post that I really should talk with non-believers some time, so that I could "be enlightened" and learn that they are not "savages with no sense of moral goodness who desire to do only evil." Well, for over ten years of my own life, I was a non-believer (agnostic, to be exact), and although at the time, I thought that I was doing many good deeds, I can now say that from God's viewpoint, for all of those years, I did indeed "desire to do only evil." I did nothing from faith-- therefore, it was all from an unbelieving, unrepentant heart. As such, Biblically speaking, it was all evil! Before God saved me, everything that I did was evil. That is the hard, Biblical truth. Praise be to God for opening my eyes to it!

 

[ContraMundum]

I completely agree with you, and Luther, that it is best to leave the unrevealed will of God to God, however, this issue is not unrevealed. Lutherans simply refuse to acknowledge what their view states. They purport the view of "single predestination, a view which even those who oppose the idea of predestination reject. For clarification, I distinguish between single predestination and the reformed view of predestination which includes within it God's passive reprobation of the non-elect. I do not espouse the view of equal ultimacy. In a mathematical formula, the Lutheran tactic is to espouse the following as the truth of predestination in its most prime form:

2 + 2 = ?

They are unwilling to define ? and feel that Scripture does not either. So, they refrain from doing so under the banner that such knowledge is exclusive to God and should be left undisturbed. It simply isn't so.

God bless

Thanks brother,

While I understand what you are saying, I guess the Lutheran response is that both the Calvinist and the Arminian are saying too much, going beyond the boundaries set by scripture. Perhaps, like Jn 3:8 says, this is to remain a mystery.

 

[Normann]

The word all is used more than 3500 times in scripture and the Calvinist will tell you that (all) does not mean all.

To protect their false teaching (all) only means themselves.

Job 37:7
He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work.

John 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Normann]

How then does a person receive Christ? If it is passively they do nothing just as a glass does nothing in receiving water. God pours in His grace and mercy in the person of Christ. He does all the work and it is very clear from both Scripture and experience that He doesn't do it for all. He gives it to whom He will. Do you agree with this?

So then I guess God is a respecter of perosns after all?
Shall we cut this passage out of our bibles?

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

So then I guess God is a respecter of perosns after all?
Shall we cut this passage out of our bibles?

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

quoting scripture is fine , the Devil can do that too !

Howabout compairing scripture with Scripture

and btw , you this very day have many blessings others have not got , why ?

Is it because you deserve them ?
Is it because lady luck shone down on you , or is it your fate ?

Or just maybe , maybe God dispenses His gifts as He wishes to , without the confines of man's self seeking merit mongering!

Greetings Cygnus

 

[BBAS 64]

So then I guess God is a respecter of perosns after all?
Shall we cut this passage out of our bibles?

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Good Day, Normann

Of course not, God is no respecter of persons weather they be Jew or Gentile, he will give mercy to whom he will.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.



On the other hand if one holds to God saves those who he knows will belive, then he becomes a respecter of persons, in that he respects that person solely based upon their "faith" and the correct exersize of said "faith".

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BrotherSteve]

I don't deny the relationship between faith and salvation. In fact, they are inseparable. What I deny is that faith is the product of man's choice. Tell me, if you are able, why do some choose to believe while others prefer to remain in the darkness. And please, if possible, consider your answer before you hit the submit reply button. If it is an answer that will simply lead me to ask something like, "Well, why do some love the darkness while others who choose to believe love the light" then try and offer something that takes it back to the root cause of a person believing.

I believe that there are many reasons why some people choose to remain in the darkness while others prefer the light. For example, people who are raised in the mormon church (or other cult) are often brain washed to believe a lie from the time they are very young. On the other hand, children who are raised in Christian families often believe because they have seen the faith that their parents have. remember the proverb " Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." (proverbs 22:6 NIV). Clearly the way we raise our children impacts the way they view life and the way they will respond to God.

I might also add that education has really hurt Christianity, in my opinion. Most (not all) of the college professors I have talked to laugh at the idea of Chrisianity. As scientists they are very convinced that we evolved from something and because of that belief they are teach that God is not true. Just look at the number of "chirstians" that leave the church after they start college.

I could continue but in some sense it would be pointless - there are so many factors in our lives that make us who we are when we grow up. Factors that make us more likely to believe or likely not to believe.

Besides all of the environmental factors there is God. Not that He is less important - He is more important. I can't describe exactly how God works, especially not in this post, but there is a God factor that helps us to believe. We just need to submit to God working in our lives.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Good Day, Brother Steve

The text says believe in the Lord...

Where in the text is the word "choose?"

Peace to u,

Bill

that word "choose" is not there but you must choose to believe. you can't believe if you choose not to believe. perhaps we could say that it was a command "Believe in the Lord." but you still must choose to do what is commanded.

 

[mlqurgw]

So then I guess God is a respecter of perosns after all?
Shall we cut this passage out of our bibles?

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

You just did didn't you. You cut it right out of its context to make it say something that isn't in the context. It is no wonder that so many base their beliefs on snipits from the Scriptures instead of the whole of the Book. No one who has an overall view of the teaching of Scriptures denies election and predestination. They may do their best to twist it but they do not deny it.

 

[BBAS 64]

that word "choose" is not there but you must choose to believe. you can't believe if you choose not to believe. perhaps we could say that it was a command "Believe in the Lord." but you still must choose to do what is commanded.

Good Day, Brother Steve

I am glad we can agree that the word is not in the text, thus we should be carefull in puting into the text words that do not appear.

I do agree we must choose, but the question is by what means do we make that choice. Just because some thing is commanded "belive in the Lord" or "repent" does not answer why some choose to and some do not.

I would say God is the effective means and the reason why some walk in his commandments and some do not.

2Ch 30:6 So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.

2Ch 30:7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.

2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

2Ch 30:9 For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.

2Ch 30:10 So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.

2Ch 30:11 Nevertheless divers of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.

2Ch 30:12 Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD.


God gave them the heart to do these things. God replaces our heart of stone, as a result of that we become His people and he becomes our God.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Sentry]

I don't deny the relationship between faith and salvation. In fact, they are inseparable. What I deny is that faith is the product of man's choice. Tell me, if you are able, why do some choose to believe while others prefer to remain in the darkness.

Next time you commit a sin, ask yourself why you chose the sin rather than God.

And then you will have your answer.

 

[mlqurgw]

Next time you commit a sin, ask yourself why you chose the sin rather than God.

And then you will have your answer.

Believers sin not because we are in darkness but because we give in to the old man. Unbelievers are in darkness and like it that way. That is what it is to be blind. It takes an act of God to give sight so that we can see light. Your answer is once again nonsense.

 

[calidog]

[sign]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ... John 6:44 [/sign]

repented
(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Reformationist]

I believe that there are many reasons why some people choose to remain in the darkness while others prefer the light. For example, people who are raised in the mormon church (or other cult) are often brain washed to believe a lie from the time they are very young.

Being raised in the Mormon church cannot be the reason that a person does not come to faith for there are many that are raised in that very church that come to faith. You cannot blame the Mormon church for people not coming to faith without applying power to the Mormon church that you refuse to grant even to God Himself. I agree that unsound doctrine can impede a person's ability to worship the God of Scripture correctly. However, God, in His sovereign ways, has brought many of His elect out of that church into the fold. The only way that you can claim that something has the power to keep someone from coming to faith is if it always has the power to keep someone from coming to faith. It is incongruous to credit something with the power to keep someone from coming to faith, but only sometimes. It either has the power, or it doesn't. In this case, it clearly doesn't.

On the other hand, children who are raised in Christian families often believe because they have seen the faith that their parents have. remember the proverb " Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." (proverbs 22:6 NIV). Clearly the way we raise our children impacts the way they view life and the way they will respond to God.

I agree that we have a duty toward our children and God has promised to reward our obedience. However, here again, no one comes to faith because their parents have faith. Faith is, itself, a gift from God.

I might also add that education has really hurt Christianity, in my opinion. Most (not all) of the college professors I have talked to laugh at the idea of Chrisianity. As scientists they are very convinced that we evolved from something and because of that belief they are teach that God is not true. Just look at the number of "chirstians" that leave the church after they start college.

No true believer is eternally lost to the church because of the teachings of the world. God may, for a season, allow us to be tempted and beguiled. However, God has promised that He will never lose any that He gives the Son.

I could continue but in some sense it would be pointless - there are so many factors in our lives that make us who we are when we grow up. Factors that make us more likely to believe or likely not to believe.

Besides all of the environmental factors there is God. Not that He is less important - He is more important. I can't describe exactly how God works, especially not in this post, but there is a God factor that helps us to believe. We just need to submit to God working in our lives.

There is nothing in the Bible that expresses anything close to what you have here. You speak of a person's faith as if it is the product of some random luck, or that our environment prohibits God from bringing His people out of cultures that reject the God of Scripture. It simply isn't so. Despite what you seem to purport here, these events are not simply chaotic. God is sovereignly governing history to gather His elect.

I pray that God blesses you with the knowledge that it is He, not the creation of His hands, that determines whom shall be His child.

God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

repented
(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Good Day, Calidog

Context!!

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.


This passage has nothing to do with the context of Jn 6.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BrotherSteve]

There is nothing in the Bible that expresses anything close to what you have here. You speak of a person's faith as if it is the product of some random luck, or that our environment prohibits God from bringing His people out of cultures that reject the God of Scripture. It simply isn't so. Despite what you seem to purport here, these events are not simply chaotic. God is sovereignly governing history to gather His elect.

First of all, I never said that our enviornments prohibit God from anything. of course people from any background can be saved. In fact I said that God is more important than our enviornment. Please, look at the whole of my statement before you respond to any part of it.

However, it would be foolish to claim that our enviornments don't affect the way we view life and the way we view God. Your question was why do people choose darkness - I said that part (not all) of that is due to the way they are raised.

You seem to think that God letting people make choices some how interferes with His sovereignty - it most certainly does not! God can be sovereign and let people make choices at the same time.

 

[calidog]

Good Day, Calidog

Context!!

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.


This passage has nothing to do with the context of Jn 6.

Peace to u,

Bill

good morning:
John 6:45 says we will all learn from God. Everone who listens to God and learns from God will come to Jesus.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall ALL be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Believers sin not because we are in darkness but because we give in to the old man. Unbelievers are in darkness and like it that way. That is what it is to be blind. It takes an act of God to give sight so that we can see light. Your answer is once again nonsense.

Let's consider this for a moment.

Perhaps we can all agree that we started out as unbelievers. You say that unbelievers like to be in the darkness. My question is this: if they like the darkness why do they ever change?

If you say that it was because God called them, then did they believe as soon as God called them? And if they believed as soon as God called them, were they instantly saved at that moment?

If they were not instantly saved then they were still in the darkness and they would like it that way - so why change. If they are instantly saved, I am curious how.