Predestination what is it to you?

Neostarwcc

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you? I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you? What scriptures do you use to backup your theology? For the sake of argument in this thread (I don't mean to open this as a debate but more of a discussion) lets not use the typical Romans 8:29-30 or any of the other common predestination Scriptures Like 1 Peter 1 or Ephesians 1. We know the Bible teaches Predestination so we have to have it in our theology if we want to be Biblical otherwise we stray away from Scripture and that's just not good. Lets go back to the Prophets and the words of Christ.

*edit* Never mind I just realized that there's already a thread about this in general theology. It didn't show up on my similar threads.
 
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bling

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God from the beginning of time can “predestine” all the actions He will be take, which can include promises.

God predestined those whom He will save so God has “Predestine” to save all those who accept His forgiveness, so if you humbly accept God’s forgiveness as a pure undeserved charitable gift, you will be saved.

God does not have to name individuals to make a predetermination.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination and God can have perfect foreknowledge with out having to predestine everything.
 
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Jonaitis

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"Those people who are predestined to life were chosen by God before the foundation of the world, according to his eternal and unchangeable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will. He chose them in Christ for eternal glory, purely as a result of his free grace and love (Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9), without anything else about them serving as a condition or cause moving him to do so (Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12).

Second London Baptist Confession, Section 3, Paragraph 5
 
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Emun

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I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you?
Actually, the teaching is already found with Augustine. Calvin and the other reformers were inspired by him.

I consider the doctrine of predestination to be biblical, but also paradoxical at first glance
 
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Jonaitis

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God from the beginning of time can “predestine” all the actions He will be take, which can include promises.

God predestined those whom He will save so God has “Predestine” to save all those who accept His forgiveness, so if you humbly accept God’s forgiveness as a pure undeserved charitable gift, you will be saved.

God does not have to name individuals to make a predetermination.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination and God can have perfect foreknowledge with out having to predestine everything.
Well, we would say that "foreknowledge" is not the same as "foresight," as often misinterpreted, but "prior personal acquaintance". When you know someone, you don't simply mean you know something about them, but that you have a some sort of relationship with them. When God foreknows us, it is the same as "He loved us before we loved Him" kind of deal. So foreknowledge is the scope of predestination, not the other way around ("God looking down the corridors of time to choose those who would have faith, then predetermining them"). We need to defend the biblical definition of foreknowledge.
 
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Brother-Mike

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God does not have to name individuals to make a predetermination.

Have any scriptural support for this claim that I can investigate? Much thanks either way - I'm of course putting it up against verses such as:

"The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth—all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world—will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come." - Revelation 17:8 (NET)

Appreciated, BM :praying:
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you? I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you? What scriptures do you use to backup your theology? For the sake of argument in this thread (I don't mean to open this as a debate but more of a discussion) lets not use the typical Romans 8:29-30 or any of the other common predestination Scriptures Like 1 Peter 1 or Ephesians 1. We know the Bible teaches Predestination so we have to have it in our theology if we want to be Biblical otherwise we stray away from Scripture and that's just not good. Lets go back to the Prophets and the words of Christ.

*edit* Never mind I just realized that there's already a thread about this in general theology. It didn't show up on my similar threads.
A person is pedestined to recieve everlasting life when they chooseJesus Christ of Nazareth as their God. Blessings.
 
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BobRyan

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you? I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you? What scriptures do you use to backup your theology? For the sake of argument in this thread (I don't mean to open this as a debate but more of a discussion) lets not use the typical Romans 8:29-30 or any of the other common predestination Scriptures Like 1 Peter 1 or Ephesians 1. We know the Bible teaches Predestination so we have to have it in our theology if we want to be Biblical otherwise we stray away from Scripture and that's just not good. Lets go back to the Prophets and the words of Christ.

*edit* Never mind I just realized that there's already a thread about this in general theology. It didn't show up on my similar threads.
Step 1. Define what predestination is


One thing almost all Christians agree on is that God knows the end from the beginning. He knows everything which means He also knows every Word He Himself will ever say and everything He Himself will ever do..

(So it "might" appear to "Him" that He has no free will. That is a possibility.)

But the rest of us don't have that view of the future - so it appears to us like it is all fluid and can go any of a number of different ways.

Step 2. No person is predestined for hell according to the Bible. In the Bible predestination only works one way. That does not mean God does not know exactly who will go to hell and who will not - it just means that this is not how the Bible uses the term.

So then not a "predestined to hell" text. Yet God most certainly knows who will go to hell.

========================

3. God knew every word that Christ would ever speak from all eternity - yet Christ had free will.

Isaiah 5:4 is a great example of the popular idea of "predestination" failing.

In Isaiah 5 - God asks the question regarding the failing scenario that happens with His own sovereignly chosen - special people called "His "OWN" in John 1:11.

"What more was there to do than that which I have already done??? WHY THEN when I expected good results did it produce bad?" Is 5:4

The very thing that some views of predestination say "cannot exist"
 
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d taylor

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The Bible when properly understood states God has predestined believers to service. Now that is different than God predestining unbelievers to eternal life, no verse in The Bible states that.

So when a person becomes a believer God has predestined this believer to works, He has planed out before the creation of the world.

God simply has not predestined some people to eternal life and others to the lake of fire. The Bible does not support this idea/theology.

Search Results for “predestined” – Grace Evangelical Society
Are You Predestined? (Ephesians 1–3) – Grace Evangelical Society
 
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Halbhh

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you? I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you? What scriptures do you use to backup your theology? For the sake of argument in this thread (I don't mean to open this as a debate but more of a discussion) lets not use the typical Romans 8:29-30 or any of the other common predestination Scriptures Like 1 Peter 1 or Ephesians 1. We know the Bible teaches Predestination so we have to have it in our theology if we want to be Biblical otherwise we stray away from Scripture and that's just not good. Lets go back to the Prophets and the words of Christ.

*edit* Never mind I just realized that there's already a thread about this in general theology. It didn't show up on my similar threads.
God chose and planned ahead of time that anyone who would turn in repentance to Christ in faith will be saved, and He planned to bring that about, so it is predestined.

Put in another wording that I think is useful:

"...salvation [is] based on "God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight".[1] Put another way, "Election is the corporate choice of the church 'in Christ.'"[2] Paul Marston and Roger Forster state that the "central idea in the election of the church may be seen from Ephesians 1:4":[3] "For he [God] chose us [the Church] in him [Christ], before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." William Klein adds:

Here [in Ephesians 1:3-4] Paul states that God chose Christians in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. The "chosen ones" designate the corporate group to whom Paul writes with himself (and presumably all Christians) included: God chose us. The focus is not on the selection of individuals, but the group of those chosen. As Westcott notes, "He chose us (i.e. Christians as a body, v. 4) for Himself out of the world." Paul specifies the timing of this choice—it was pretemporal, before the world was created. God made the choice "in him" (that is, "in Christ"). In other words, Christ is the principal elected one,[4] and God has chosen a corporate body to be included in him."[5]

Continues here: Corporate election - Wikipedia

We have free will (God made us like Himself in that way), so that we can also choose unwisely, harmfully to at first turn to Christ but later to fall away and become lost/dead (so that if one continues in that way they will "perish" in the "second death" even though they once were saved), Christ says to us in Mark chapter 4, and Matthew chapter 7, and also in many parables. So many parables have this message it is the most repeated on He taught to us: that we must endure/persist/abide in Him/listen and put His commands into practice, or else be destroyed.

Some will be saved for a time, but destroyed in the end, while others will falter, but then turn back like the Prodigal Son, and be restored....
 
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bling

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Well, we would say that "foreknowledge" is not the same as "foresight," as often misinterpreted, but "prior personal acquaintance". When you know someone, you don't simply mean you know something about them, but that you have a some sort of relationship with them. When God foreknows us, it is the same as "He loved us before we loved Him" kind of deal. So foreknowledge is the scope of predestination, not the other way around ("God looking down the corridors of time to choose those who would have faith, then predetermining them"). We need to defend the biblical definition of foreknowledge.
“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

Does God at the end of time know historically everything that happened include your choice to pray or not pray and what you asked for? History cannot be change and everything you did becomes history.

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.
 
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Jonaitis

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“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”
Well, because He decreed it (Isaiah 46:10-11). His knowledge is the same as His decree, because that which He knows is what He purposed.
Does God at the end of time know historically everything that happened include your choice to pray or not pray and what you asked for? History cannot be change and everything you did becomes history.

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.
Free-will is simply our ignorance of destiny. We think we have free-will, because we are not aware of the future outcome of the present. This is how free-will and divine predestination works. We do the very things we don't realize we are doing. The men who had our Lord crucified did not know they were fulfilling the very Scriptures they used to condemn Him. Think of it like a novel that you've never read before: the whole story has already been written down, you just simply haven't read it. As you read it, you are filled with curiosity, suspense, and surprise, knowing subconsciously that every event was meant to happen. We are not writing God's book, but rather, our brief life is but one small volume of His magnum opus.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you? I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you? What scriptures do you use to backup your theology? For the sake of argument in this thread (I don't mean to open this as a debate but more of a discussion) lets not use the typical Romans 8:29-30 or any of the other common predestination Scriptures Like 1 Peter 1 or Ephesians 1. We know the Bible teaches Predestination so we have to have it in our theology if we want to be Biblical otherwise we stray away from Scripture and that's just not good. Lets go back to the Prophets and the words of Christ.

*edit* Never mind I just realized that there's already a thread about this in general theology. It didn't show up on my similar threads.
Predestination as in foreknowledge of possible futures. Even Moses influenced the walk of Jesus by his act of rebellion when he "struck the rock."
 
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bling

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Well, because He decreed it (Isaiah 46:10-11). His knowledge is the same as His decree, because that which He knows is what He purposed.
What God decrees He also knows will happen.

What I am addressing is: how God can know for certain the limited autonomous free will choice man has (in God at the end of time’s view) will make (man’s view) which God has allowed man to make in man’s future.
Free-will is simply our ignorance of destiny. We think we have free-will, because we are not aware of the future outcome of the present. This is how free-will and divine predestination works. We do the very things we don't realize we are doing. The men who had our Lord crucified did not know they were fulfilling the very Scriptures they used to condemn Him. Think of it like a novel that you've never read before: the whole story has already been written down, you just simply haven't read it. As you read it, you are filled with curiosity, suspense, and surprise, knowing subconsciously that every event was meant to happen. We are not writing God's book, but rather, our brief life is but one small volume of His magnum opus.
There is no way scientifically to “proof” man does not have some very limited autonomous free will ability, from knowing God has perfect knowledge of the future as pure unchangeable history.

Take your book idea and make it a history book written by God at the end of time and then given to Himself at the beginning of time, the difference is the novel was not written without your making some God allowed entries, you personally are the cause of a few words in the historic novel.

Answer me this:

Has man shown time to be relative?

Would God exist outside the restrains of time and space?

Would God at the end of time know everything throughout time as pure history?
 
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Hawkins

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God knows from the very beginning, that is before creation, who is who. However if He chooses to save those only He knew who he/she is, He can't be a fair God. He needs to set a standard to show with witnesses that the person He chooses to save is in accordance to this standard. Though the self-sacrifice of Jesus makes it lawful for God to choose whoever to save, under most circumstances God chooses to save under witnessing, of the chosen angels and saints. They are bearing witness of whom God chooses to save.

The primary purpose of predestination is to show who one is by his decision made and by his action taken. It is for God's sheep to be saved with proper witnessing such that all the saved will know how fair God is, after we are in Heaven that is. God thus dictates a list of options you can choose from especially during your trials, such that the angels and saints know clearly who you are by your choices. Your salvation is thus witnessed along with God's fairness.


1 Corinthians 4:9
For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings.
 
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bling

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Have any scriptural support for this claim that I can investigate? Much thanks either way - I'm of course putting it up against verses such as:

"The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth—all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world—will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come." - Revelation 17:8 (NET)

Appreciated, BM :praying:
Exodus 32:33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

There is this book of life with names (and the list maybe every person that will ever live) in it, but will some be blotted out over time?

If there was a verse which stated as I stated: “God does not have to name individuals to make a predetermination.” It would be found and we would all know it. This comes from a consistent interpretation of a verse, but these verses can have other alternative interpretations.

We are looking for the most likely alternative consistent with other verses.

Some interpretations which logically fit an all-powerful and all-Loving God automatically have preference over other interpretations. The idea of God making “people” by name who will only go to hell, does not seem lovingly possible, while making people, some of whom by their own autonomous free will choice, would never be willing to humbly accept God’s charity/free invite/Love/forgiveness does seem like the God we know. God can do all He can to help these people, but to program them to accept and be “Loving”, would be a robotic type love which is not the Godly type Love they need.

Luke 14: The Parable of the Great Banquet

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”

Everyone who came to the banquet was selected to be there (they had an invite). No one invited themselves, paid their way in or deserved to be there.

There were some invited, who by their own free will choice, refused the invite.

Should God have forcefully kidnapped those who refused to be at the party and if he did would they automatically be happy being there?



There are all the “whosoever” verses that suggest man’s choice is involved.

I can go over every verse, but there are lots, which are your favorite?
 
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Jonaitis

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What God decrees He also knows will happen.

What I am addressing is: how God can know for certain the limited autonomous free will choice man has (in God at the end of time’s view) will make (man’s view) which God has allowed man to make in man’s future.

There is no way scientifically to “proof” man does not have some very limited autonomous free will ability, from knowing God has perfect knowledge of the future as pure unchangeable history.
Causality proves that free will does not exist.
Answer me this:

Has man shown time to be relative?

Would God exist outside the restrains of time and space?

Would God at the end of time know everything throughout time as pure history?
Time is relative, depending on how you define time.

There is nothing outside of time and space but God.

God would know everything throughout time as necessary consequences of causality.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, because He decreed it (Isaiah 46:10-11). His knowledge is the same as His decree, because that which He knows is what He purposed.
Not according to Is 5:4
Not according to Gen 6:7

Not according to Matt 23:27
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Not according to 2 Peter 3:9

Not according to Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
Free-will is simply our ignorance of destiny.

To define "Free will" as ignorance of the future -- is to declare that God has no free will

We think we have free-will, because we are not aware of the future outcome of the present.
But that fails at a point.

Given two systems one of free will and another of no-free will, and given that in each of those systems the people in them do not have 100% knowledge of the future. -- THEN in both systems it looks the same to the people in them. They cannot tell the difference "up to a point".

But IF we admit that God always knows the future no matter which of the systems you are in.
And if we admit that God is wise enough to obtain His objective in EITHER one of those systems and is not limited to "God of robots" to do it.
And IF we agree that God does not delight in finding new ways to torture Himself

THEN IF - we agree that God never commands someone to take His name in vain, never orders them to do it. Never boxes them in to having no other choice but to do it...

Then there has to be free will - if they do it anyway.

AND IF - we also agree that God put Himself through a lot of pain and suffering on the cross - and IF we agree that all of that could be avoided 100% in "God of robots" universe just by programming Lucifer "different" -

It is very clear that free will exists.


At each major decision point - we see God's decision for "Free will" at almost infinite cost to Himself - when the "easy option" was available.
1. fall of Lucifer (without it no loss of 1/3 of the Angels and no loss of mankind)
2. Fall of Adam (without it - no death on the cross for Christ -- it would not be needed)
3. Israel's rejection of Christ (without it Christ's redemption work for mankind would be much more story-book-perfect)
 
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bling

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Causality proves that free will does not exist.
Can you give me the scientific reference for this or is this your own idea
God has both the power and Love to provide humans with limited autonomous free will to make some needd choices in fulfilling man's objective. That is why we ae here for a while.
Time is relative, depending on how you define time.

There is nothing outside of time and space but God.

God would know everything throughout time as necessary consequences of causality.
I do not define time.
No! we do not know what all exists outside of time and space, but maybe it is only deity.
God can be involved making changes (a cause) throughout time, but that does not mean God cannot also allow man to be a very limited cause in that man's life.
 
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Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
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Can you give me the scientific reference for this or is this your own idea
“Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn't choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime - by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your desires come from?”
– Sam Harris, Free Will

“Honestly, I cannot understand what people mean when they talk about the freedom of the human will. I have a feeling, for instance, that I will something or other; but what relation this has with freedom I cannot understand at all. I feel that I will to light my pipe and I do it; but how can I connect this up with the idea of freedom? What is behind the act of willing to light the pipe? Another act of willing? Schopenhauer once said: Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will (Man can do what he will but he cannot will what he wills).”
– Albert Einstein
God has both the power and Love to provide humans with limited autonomous free will to make some needd choices in fulfilling man's objective. That is why we ae here for a while.
How does He provide it?
 
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