Predestination what is it to you?

Bob Crowley

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If God was so hung-up on predestining the "wicked" or the "lost" to perdition, He would not have said through the prophet Ezekiel that He wished the wicked would repent.

Ezekiel 33:11 NIV

Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

Our choices come into it. I suppose this has particular import for me personally, as I've said ad infinitum that the night my father died, he turned up in my room. We talked and argued, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream, and then promptly disappeared. It was obvious something was coming for him and he was horror-struck by whatever it was.

At one point he said, with some alarm "I alway was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!" I arged back, although I was an atheist, saying "That can't be right!"

He replied "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!"

But later in the same conversation he admitted "I was WILLING!" (I'd say very willing) to act in the cruel, stupid, bad-tempered, vindictive way he did toward his own family and to keep it up for 20 years.

His own free choice came into it.

Did God see Him, in His unbounded "now" always acting like this and thus make a decision that he was doomed?

If so, my father was "willing" to act in that way.

Personally I think he's in Hell, although I suspect some Cathoics would prefer to think he's in Purgatory, but they didn't see the scream. In any case by the teachings of the church itself, he fulfilled the requirements to be condemned.

He even said so himself. At one point he said "Son, you've got to forgive me!" I wasn't impressed and snarled back "You treated me like dirt for 20 years and now you want forgiveness!"

(PS - I added this bit after my original post, but it was part of our conversation viz. He replied "It's not for me! It's for you!" ).

He could see I didn't believe him and so he continued "... Son, you've got to believe me! If you don't forgive me, you'll destroy yourself." Then he went on "It's too late for me! All I was expected to do was to look after my own family and I didn't even do that!"

I don't care what other people think. I remember the exchange which took place on the night of 11th January 1979 like it was yesterday and that was 43 years ago. In another five weeks or so it will be 44 years.

As far as I'm concerned "Predestination" is mixed up with our being "Willing".

I think Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin are in Hell for that matter, and most likely they were predestined to go there, but the fact they were perfectly willing to murder millions of people will be part of God's judgement on them, which He no doubt foresaw from the beginning, even if God "took no pleasure" in their destruction. I don't think God liked watching the Gulags or the Concentration camps either, any more than He enjoys seeing every single abortion being performed. It might just be an "ethical" or "legal" issue for some politicians, but for God it's a lot more personal and obscene than that!

As CS Lewis put it in one of his essays, "the greatest sins are committed by men who sit in offices with clean hands". Some modern politicans could take note. They'll be held to account for far greater sins than those of my father.

When they stand in front of the judgment seat, they will see very clearly that they were "WILLING", even if they had "clean hands" themselves.

(PS Again - I might add the phrase about "It's not for me! It's for you!" implies that when we forgive someone, it may not be for their benefit. Christ was prepared to forgive those who were responsible for His crucifixion, but there isn't much evidence that any of them repented. So perhaps in some way it was for "Him", despite the fact He was God the Son, and quite possibly not for "them".)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you? I mean, if it isn't like the concept from the reformers what is it to you? What scriptures do you use to backup your theology? For the sake of argument in this thread (I don't mean to open this as a debate but more of a discussion) lets not use the typical Romans 8:29-30 or any of the other common predestination Scriptures Like 1 Peter 1 or Ephesians 1. We know the Bible teaches Predestination so we have to have it in our theology if we want to be Biblical otherwise we stray away from Scripture and that's just not good. Lets go back to the Prophets and the words of Christ.

*edit* Never mind I just realized that there's already a thread about this in general theology. It didn't show up on my similar threads.
Let's start with what Predestination is not. It is not choosing a select few for life, and choosing the rest for damnation, by a predetermined will. As we see from scripture God desires all to be saved, but not all will choose it:

1Ti 2:4-6 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;

So how do I see Predestination? God has predetermined plans. So defined are the plans that He knows "exactly the amount of money we may make in a pay packet". But these plans allow for our free will choices. This is so He, God can put constraints on evil. To prevent the evil of man from overflowing.

Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.

As we see this evil overflowed at the time of the flood, and God used Noah for a reset.

Gen 6:5-8 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.


As we saw with the first scripture God wants all men to be saved. So we know He predestines all to life, but not all choose it. It is God's soverign will that "all be saved", but not all will it.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Predestination is a little like one of the old computer games that were around when I was a kid. God plans out a story, but the user gets to make choices from a list. Like this.

You walk into a thicket, there is a bear. Do you:

A) Run away
B) Fight the bear

The choice will effect which path way the story takes. But God can always keep the story on track. He can know all the people beforehand, He can intimately plan out the story. We know God can not sin or be tempted by sin. So He does not plan out man's sins, only allows for them to happen, and has a solution all ready to turn it around for good.
 
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Strong in Him

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The Bible obviously talks about Predestination because It is literally spread all throughout the scriptures, was spoken by the Prophets and Apostles and even Jesus Christ himself. But I want to open an interesting thread. What is Predestination to you?

God knows all things and knows that not everyone will be saved.
But that is not at all the same as saying that he chose, or created them, not to be.

I don't see that predestination is taught in Scripture.
It's Scriptural that God chose people for different roles, or tasks. And remnant theology is Scriptural - that out of many, only a few will be saved, or chosen.
But not the idea that God decided in advance who would be saved. Nor that people's actions are pre-determined - i.e he had to do that; he had no choice.
 
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Darren Court

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This issue is like many different issues in principle.
.
The principle problem seems to be ... i) The bible says one thing ii) The bible says another thing iii) Logically the two conflict iv) Men make up there explanations.
.
This leads to problems especially when people think their explanations must be write because they focus on the verses that support their view and either ignore or misinterpret the verses that don't.

The first thing I want to say is that anyone who is precious about their belief in such matters needs to careful consider something. You see the bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and it also says that without the Holy Spirit no-one can call Him Lord. In other words, none of us are smart enough to figure out truth without the Holy Spirit guiding us and if we think we have truth without the Holy Spirit then we're deluding ourselves! This is critical to approaching scripture, interpretation, doctrine and life. So the point here is that if someone is really precious and passionate about their belief on a particular doctrine they must be claiming that the Holy Spirit directed them to that truth even if they don't realise that's what they're doing... and that's dangerous. Dangerous because it dishonors God if it's not true - even if much of what they say is true (unlikely). So I think it's important to distinguish what we THINK is true but has not been GIVEN to us by the Holy Spirit and what has been Holy Spirit lead.... Noting that God gave us the freedom to explore such matters but wants us to desire His direction!

Turning to Predestination issue. I think I've been lead to my view by God, but not so sure that I would bet my salvation on it or that I would so passionately defend it so as to offend others. Everyone who reads my view has to decide whether it is true or not, but can only do so with God's guidance.

I think the problem here is, like many other problems in the bible, about perspective. The bible has been written from two perspectives.. i) God's ii) Man's. If we read the bible with the wrong perspective we tend to get weird answers and false interpretations. The bible talks about man's freewill and his choice to sin. This is man's perspective. We have an absolute free choice in most things (note there are limitations to our freewill. We cannot for example breath under water without equipment). The bible also talks about Predestination and from man's perspective that looks like it conflicts freewill. I don't think it does at all because predestination is from God's viewpoint. He knows all of our choices and, therefore, can predestine everything before we make the choices without interfering with our freewill.
 
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Neostarwcc

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This issue is like many different issues in principle.
.
The principle problem seems to be ... i) The bible says one thing ii) The bible says another thing iii) Logically the two conflict iv) Men make up there explanations.
.
This leads to problems especially when people think their explanations must be write because they focus on the verses that support their view and either ignore or misinterpret the verses that don't.

The first thing I want to say is that anyone who is precious about their belief in such matters needs to careful consider something. You see the bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and it also says that without the Holy Spirit no-one can call Him Lord. In other words, none of us are smart enough to figure out truth without the Holy Spirit guiding us and if we think we have truth without the Holy Spirit then we're deluding ourselves! This is critical to approaching scripture, interpretation, doctrine and life. So the point here is that if someone is really precious and passionate about their belief on a particular doctrine they must be claiming that the Holy Spirit directed them to that truth even if they don't realise that's what they're doing... and that's dangerous. Dangerous because it dishonors God if it's not true - even if much of what they say is true (unlikely). So I think it's important to distinguish what we THINK is true but has not been GIVEN to us by the Holy Spirit and what has been Holy Spirit lead.... Noting that God gave us the freedom to explore such matters but wants us to desire His direction!

Turning to Predestination issue. I think I've been lead to my view by God, but not so sure that I would bet my salvation on it or that I would so passionately defend it so as to offend others. Everyone who reads my view has to decide whether it is true or not, but can only do so with God's guidance.

I think the problem here is, like many other problems in the bible, about perspective. The bible has been written from two perspectives.. i) God's ii) Man's. If we read the bible with the wrong perspective we tend to get weird answers and false interpretations. The bible talks about man's freewill and his choice to sin. This is man's perspective. We have an absolute free choice in most things (note there are limitations to our freewill. We cannot for example breath under water without equipment). The bible also talks about Predestination and from man's perspective that looks like it conflicts freewill. I don't think it does at all because predestination is from God's viewpoint. He knows all of our choices and, therefore, can predestine everything before we make the choices without interfering with our freewill.

I couldn't have said it any better myself! Thank you for your post!
 
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Mark Quayle

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Well, because He decreed it (Isaiah 46:10-11). His knowledge is the same as His decree, because that which He knows is what He purposed.

Free-will is simply our ignorance of destiny. We think we have free-will, because we are not aware of the future outcome of the present. This is how free-will and divine predestination works. We do the very things we don't realize we are doing. The men who had our Lord crucified did not know they were fulfilling the very Scriptures they used to condemn Him. Think of it like a novel that you've never read before: the whole story has already been written down, you just simply haven't read it. As you read it, you are filled with curiosity, suspense, and surprise, knowing subconsciously that every event was meant to happen. We are not writing God's book, but rather, our brief life is but one small volume of His magnum opus.
We believe in Chance for the same reason. "I don't know."
 
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Darren Court

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Free-will is simply our ignorance of destiny. We think we have free-will, because we are not aware of the future outcome of the present. This is how free-will and divine predestination works. We do the very things we don't realize we are doing. The men who had our Lord crucified did not know they were fulfilling the very Scriptures they used to condemn Him. Think of it like a novel that you've never read before: the whole story has already been written down, you just simply haven't read it. As you read it, you are filled with curiosity, suspense, and surprise, knowing subconsciously that every event was meant to happen. We are not writing God's book, but rather, our brief life is but one small volume of His magnum opus.
Sorry can't agree. Free-will is our freedom to chose, nothing more nothing less. We don't think we have free-will, we do have free-will.

I thought about ignoring your comment and then I thought about answering it. In the end I chose to answer it but I could so easily have not done so. Did God know I was going to? Absolutely, but that's predestination that's preknowledge. Of course, we have influences on our life that affect our free-will. Advertising is one and one that most people don't think influences them, but it does. There are so many influences and the greatest of these are ones are almost certainly ones we are unaware of. However, we are most often only unaware because we chose not to think about them, evaluate them and then take control of their influence on us. This is why we do things we do not realise.

The men who had our Lord crucified did not know they were fulfilling the very Scriptures they used to condemn Him. No they didn't but it's irrelevant. He knew they would and they had free choice and He knew they would choose to do so.

Think of it like a novel that you've never read before: the whole story has already been written down, you just simply haven't read it. Life isn't like a book at all except that our stories can be written into a book of the past when free-will has been exercised. We are not characters on a page devoid of life and purpose but subject to the authors hand.

Moreover the idea that we don't have free-will means two things that predestination ignores else uses spurious means to avoid....
i) If everything is predestined them there was and is no need of God to write a book with instructions and history in it especially when most of that content documents people who failed to follow His direction (in some great or small measure) and where He urges us to CHOOSE the right things. If we have no free-will this would make God a deceiver
ii) If everything is predestined then how can anyone be accountable for what God directed us to do? Yet the bible makes it clear we are fully responsible. Indeed the whole premise of sin is disobedience, disobedience to God. How can we be disobedient if have no free-will?
 
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Jonaitis

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Free-will is our freedom to chose, nothing more nothing less.
I agree with you that we are moral agents with the ability to make conscious choices, but the bigger picture is that God's providence is sovereign over the affairs of this universe, including the choices we consciously make. Feel free to disagree, I will not argue about it here.
 
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Darren Court

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I agree with you that we are moral agents with the ability to make conscious choices, but the bigger picture is that God's providence is sovereign over the affairs of this universe, including the choices we consciously make. Feel free to disagree, I will not argue about it here.
In effect you're saying we have freedom to make conscious choices but God makes those choices for us.
What I'm saying is that we have freedom to make conscious choices and God knows what they will be.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I appreciate the way that Pastor Jordan Cooper (Lutheran) phrases it, predestination is not God's foreknowledge, rather predestination is God's fore-love. It is the love God has had for us since before all ages, and through that love chosen us in Christ out of His love and grace for us.

Predestination is not God picking and choosing who would and wouldn't be saved. Predestination, election, is the fact that God knew us and loved us before the worlds began according to the grace which He has for us, and for which reason He sent Jesus that all who believe in Him should be saved.

Predestination does not mean that God chose some people to be saved because He foreknew they would choose Him.
Predestination does not mean that God chose some people to be saved because He determined by His sovereign choice that they would be saved and nobody else would.

Predestination means that God chose to save us because He loved us, that love which He has for the whole world and sent Christ to suffer and bear the weight of all sin, of all death, to be the perfect satisfaction for every man, woman, and child. He chose us, not to the exclusion of others (Calvinism); He chose us not because He knew we would do the right thing and choose Him (Arminianism); He chose us for no other reason than because He loved us and desires the salvation of all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Darren Court

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I appreciate the way that Pastor Jordan Cooper (Lutheran) phrases it, predestination is not God's foreknowledge, rather predestination is God's fore-love. It is the love God has had for us since before all ages, and through that love chosen us in Christ out of His love and grace for us.

Predestination is not God picking and choosing who would and wouldn't be saved. Predestination, election, is the fact that God knew us and loved us before the worlds began according to the grace which He has for us, and for which reason He sent Jesus that all who believe in Him should be saved.

Predestination does not mean that God chose some people to be saved because He foreknew they would choose Him.
Predestination does not mean that God chose some people to be saved because He determined by His sovereign choice that they would be saved and nobody else would.

Predestination means that God chose to save us because He loved us, that love which He has for the whole world and sent Christ to suffer and bear the weight of all sin, of all death, to be the perfect satisfaction for every man, woman, and child. He chose us, not to the exclusion of others (Calvinism); He chose us not because He knew we would do the right thing and choose Him (Arminianism); He chose us for no other reason than because He loved us and desires the salvation of all.

-CryptoLutheran
I am sorry but find that description confused, conflicted and redefinition of the known and accepted term. When the words were written did Paul know what the word "proorizō" meant? Did his audience know? Of course, they knew or his words would be meaningless until the great revelation came, at some undetermined point in history, solidified by Jordan Cooper.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am sorry but find that description confused, conflicted and redefinition of the known and accepted term. When the words were written did Paul know what the word "proorizō" meant? Did his audience know? Of course, they knew or his words would be meaningless until the great revelation came, at some undetermined point in history, solidified by Jordan Cooper.

Dr. Cooper merely described the Lutheran understanding of predestination, which is taken from Ephesians chapter 1. That God choosing us is because of His love (Ephesians 1:4-5). In contrast to the Arminian and Calvinist positions, which Lutherans reject.

I'd be more than happy to link to Dr. Cooper's video on the Lutheran understanding of the Ordo Salutis in order to provide the context in which he uses the expression "fore-love" as a way of explaining the biblical concept of predestination as God's choice made out of His love toward us in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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