Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

[HosannaHM]

The people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5, were they enabled to listen and learn?

I don't see how this is a "gotcha verse". Paul shifts from speaking about Gentiles in Romans 1 to Jews in Romans 2 who were tempted to trust in themselves because they were biological children of Abraham. He will go on to talk about a righteousness from God by faith as opposed to righteousness attained by the law- the point of the passage you quoted.

 

[Clare73]

So what are your thoughts on this statement from Christ?

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Were these people who were seeking to kill Christ elected to salvation?

Some may have been and their minds were changed by Christ's words. . .the text does not say.

Paul used to be one of them, as regards persecuting Christians, and he was of the elect.

 

[HosannaHM]

But 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that they were chosen according to His foreknowledge. His foreknowledge of what?

Of God, regarding His church. The ekklesia, the church Jesus Christ was going to build and the gates of hell could not prevail against it. Sounds like Christ is accomplishing what He set out to do.

ekklesia:
"a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly"

He elected the ones he called out and assembled. Sounds like God made the first move!

 

[Clare73]

The people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5, were they enabled to listen and learn?

Yes, those who did listen and learn did so because they were enabled (John 6:44-45).

Those who did not listen and learn were not enabled.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"--in order that God's purpose in election might stand. . .she was told 'The older will serve the younger.' " (Romans 9:11)
Paul has just demonstrated the unrighteousness of the Gentiles in chp 1.
In chp 2, he shows the unrighteousness of the Jews, in his establishing all mankind to be unrighteous. . .so that all righteousness is from God only.

He is addressing the Jews in 2:4-5, telling them that the purpose of God's kindness is to give them, who had misconstrued his patience to be a lack of intent to judge, opportunity for repentance (as we see in 2 Peter 3:9), because by not repenting of their unbelief in Jesus Christ, they were storing up wrath against themselves for the day of God's wrath; i.e., judgment at the end of time (in contrast to the judgment on the Gentiles being revealed 1:18-32).

Not sure why you asked. . .

So your position is that God enables people to repent he does not cause them to repent?

 

[Clare73]

But 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that they were chosen according to His foreknowledge. His foreknowledge of what?

His foreknowledge of his decree that it shall occur.

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is of his own work, of what he has decreed shall happen and, therefore, does happen.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Of God, regarding His church. The ekklesia, the church Jesus Christ was going to build and the gates of hell could not prevail against it. Sounds like Christ is accomplishing what He set out to do.

ekklesia:
"a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly"

He elected the ones he called out and assembled. Sounds like God made the first move!

What your saying here is that God chose them according to His foreknowledge of those whom He would choose. Is that what your saying?

 

[BNR32FAN]

His foreknowledge of his decree that it shall occur.

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is of his own work, of what he has decreed shall happen and, therefore, does happen.

Your saying the same thing, that God chose them according to His foreknowledge of those whom He would choose. That doesn’t make any sense. He chose them because He chose them?

 

[Clare73]

So your position is that God enables people to repent he does not cause them to repent?

His enablement is a change from being not disposed to repent to being disposed to repent, which gives them to repent of their own volition.

 

[HosannaHM]

What your saying here is that God chose them according to His foreknowledge of those whom He would choose. Is that what your saying?

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29,30

This is what I'm saying.

 

[HosannaHM]

I believe Claire is saying the same thing. I don't understand the tactic being imposed here but I'm failing to see the point.

 

[Clare73]

Your saying the same thing, that God chose them according to His foreknowledge of those whom He would choose. That doesn’t make any sense. He chose them because He chose them?

"According to his foreknowledge" means according to what he has decreed, which is stated: predestination, calling, justification, glorification, and puts into action at the appointed time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

His foreknowledge of his decree that it shall occur.

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is of his own work, of what he has decreed shall happen and, therefore, does happen.

Your saying that He chose them twice. That He chose them according to those He chose. He chose them before creation He didn’t have to choose them again after creation they were already chosen to begin with according to His foreknowledge of whether or not they would repent and abide in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"According to his foreknowledge" means according to what he has decreed, which is then stated, predestination, calling, justification, glorification, and puts into action at the appointed time.

Please read post 133

 

[BNR32FAN]

His enablement is a change from being not disposed to repent to being disposed to repent, which gives them to repent of their own volition.

But the people in Romans 2:4-5 were not willing to repent despite God’s kindness and patience leading them to repentance. So His enablement didn’t change them from being unwilling to willing.

 

[Clare73]

Your saying that He chose them twice. That He chose them according to those He chose. He chose them before creation He didn’t have to choose them again after creation they were already chosen to begin with according to His foreknowledge of whether or not they would repent and abide in Christ.

Foreknowledge is knowing of his own work, of his own decree that something shall occur.

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, they they came to be (were accomplished)."

Isaiah 48:3

 

[Clare73]

But the people in Romans 2:4-5 were not willing to repent despite God’s kindness and patience leading them to repentance. So
His enablement didn’t change them from being unwilling to willing.

Kindness and patience are not enablement.

Enablement is a work of God within a person.

Kindness and patience increase culpability and judgment of the disobedient.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Foreknowledge is knowing of his own work, of his own decree that something shall occur.

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, they they came to be (were accomplished)."

Isaiah 48:3

Foreknowledge means knowing what is to come. Your saying that they were chosen according to His knowledge of choosing them. They were chosen before creation. He didn’t choose them before creation then according to His knowledge of those He chose before creation He chose them again. That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Kindness and patience are not enablement.

Kindness and patience increase culpability of the disobedient.

So your saying that His kindness and patience was not leading them to repentance.

 

[Clare73]

Foreknowledge is knowing of his own work, of his own decree that something shall occur.

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, they they came to be (were accomplished)."

Isaiah 48:3

Foreknowledge means knowing what is to come.

Not in Scripture, where it includes foreordaining.

Your saying that they were chosen according to His knowledge of choosing them. They were chosen before creation. He didn’t choose them before creation then according to His knowledge of those He chose before creation He chose them again. That doesn’t make any sense.

Those whom (not things or events) he foreknew (according to his decree of election) he predestined, called, justified, glorified.