Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

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Good Day, BHL

Umm there you go again... illogical spam.

Baseless assertion (strawman) fallacy.

Primary historical source of anyone who ever said that and saying that it is not your first rodeo is not very useful.... so source please.

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

The price of preacher notes here - God’s Will and Man’s Will by C. H. Spurgeon

snip... But we do hold and teach that though the will of man is not ignored, and men are not saved against their wills, that the work of the Spirit, which is the effect of the will of God, is to change the human will, and so make men willing in the day of God's power, working in them to will to do of his own good pleasure. The work of the Spirit is consistent with the original laws and constitution of human nature. Ignorant men talk grossly and carnally about the work of the Spirit in the heart as if the heart were a lump of flesh, and the Holy Spirit turned it round mechanically. Now, brethren, how is your heart and my heart changed in any matter? Why, the instrument generally is persuasion. A friend sets before us a truth we did not know before; pleads with us; puts it in a new light, and then we say, "Now I see that," and then our hearts are changed towards the thing. Now, although no man's heart is changed by moral suasion in itself, yet the way in which the Spirit works in his heart, as far as we can detect it, is instrumentally by a blessed persuasion of the mind. I say not that men are saved by moral suasion, or that this is the first cause, but I think it is frequently the visible means. As to the secret work, who knows how the Spirit works?

In Him,

Bill;

When I refer to Calvinism, I always generally refer to High Calvinism (Which I believe is it's purest form originating from Calvin himself).

As for Calvinism refering to being elected to reprobation:

Well, I am not wrong in saying that certain Calvinists believe in that.

John Calvin himself believed in it.

“Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1).

Also, see my post #79 for a further explanation.
 
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The Liturgist

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Surely you can reword it in modern terminology in your own words here for us instead of having me to go fish about what other men say you believe. I am honestly not interested in looking at Reformed writings of any kind. So either you provide a brief explanation on Unconditoinal Election in your own words in how I got it wrong, or we can simply move on, my friend.

I have talked with plenty of Calvinists over the past 10 years, and I have read many Calvinist claims and I know about the five points of Calvinism. Yes, there are other flavors of Calvinism out there. There are 4 point Calvinists, etc. But I am not interested in debating the other myriad of differences of Calvinism out there.

I am a member of a predominantly Reformed denomination; ultimately I found myself leaning more towards Arminianism or a compromise position (in that we have free will, effectively, but God being omniscient knows the choice we will make). I will say, I think it is a mistake to completely discard the entire corpus of Reformed theological writing, because much of it is quite useful and enlightening, for example, the works of Karl Barth and several of the liturgical texts, and the works of the Scoto-Catholics and Mercersburg Theologians, who stressed continuity with the liturgical praxis of the ancient church, the use of icons, et cetera, and whose work enabled the beautiful churches and church worship associated with various Reformed denominations including the Church of Scotland, and the Congregationalists in the US and Britain, starting in the late 19th century (without which, our ministers might still wear Geneva gowns exclusively, frown upon organs and hymns, and oppose such things as liturgical colors and stained glass windows, and, ironically, frequent reception of the Eucharist, which became uncommon among Reformed Christians despite the need for it being the one common thread between Jan Hus, Martin Luther and John Calvin).
 
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I am not sure what your words here have anything to do with what I stated previously. I would agree that the Lord is loving and I would agree that the Lord desires all to be saved.

Amen to that. I am not a universalist but certainly I think scripture makes it clear that God is love and wants to save everyone.
 
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Butterball1

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I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.
The Bible does teach predestination but NOT unconditional election of individuals apart from the Bible and obedience to the Bible. The Bible teaches corporate election, God foreknew and preordained a GROUP that would be called Christian to be the elect. Those then that choose to seek and come to God in belief are those who become part of the group Christian, become of the foreknown elect, group. Therefore God has no culpability for those not of the elect group.
 
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HosannaHM

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The Bible does teach predestination but NOT unconditional election of individuals apart from the Bible and obedience to the Bible. The Bible teaches corporate election, God foreknew and preordained a GROUP that would be called Christian to be the elect. Those then that choose to seek and come to God in belief are those who become part of the group Christian, become of the foreknown elect, group. Therefore God has no culpability for those not of the elect group.

Question: So if if God looks to see who will choose Him, and then elects the group comprised of who will choose Him, wouldn't that cease to be election?

So you choose to be chosen? That sounds like divine reaction- not divine election.
 
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I am a Protestant minister, a traditional Congregationalist, and I take exception to that. I am unaware of any institutional problems of actual dishonesty regarding doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church. The only period of time where there existed what some people call “pious frauds” I am aware of is the period immediately leading up to the Reformation, relating to the sale of indulgences, which was a practice that in the wake of the Reformation, the Roman church recognized as prone to abuse and discontinued. Otherwise, any lies and deceptions would be the same as in any other church, which is to say, there exist politics in every church, and unfortunately not everyone who is ordained is worthy to be a presbyter or bishop.

Now, specifically regarding Peter being the Rock, the Oriental Orthodox churches believe this, as do some Eastern Orthodox, in that Peter according to tradition recognized by all three churches was the initial leader of the Church in Antioch, before moving to Rome. Additionally, Mark the Evangelist is traditionally recognized by all Orthodox Christians (Eastern and Oriental) and by many Anglicans including the large number who live in Egypt as being Peter’s disciple and the first leader of the church in Alexandria.

Consequently, there are three “Petrine Sees”, Antioch, Rome and Alexandria, and in the early church, these three churches were the most important centers of Christian leadership during the period between the destruction and rebuilding of Jerusalem in the early second and early fourth century, prior to the relocation of the Roman capital to Byzantion, which became known as Constantinople and as New Rome.

There is a compelling scriptural and historical reason for Peter to have travelled to Rome to lead the church there, and his name is Simon Magus. All of the ancient histories agree he travelled west, impersonating the Apostles, and ultimately wound up in Rome. Whereas Paul was a prisoner in Rome, and ministered to the gentiles through his disciples, it makes sense that Peter would go to Rome to evangelize the Jewish population and also to debunk Simon Magus.

We see examples in the New Testament of Peter having a limited role as servant-leader, not absolute, because Paul, for example, was free to disagree with him firmly and persuaded him to his position, and James the son of Alfeus, the first bishop of the Church of Jerusalem and author of the epistle clearly was presiding at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, but it is clear, and indeed undisputed among the great Protestant reformers (Hus, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Melancthon, and others) that Peter did have some leadership role, and the Orthodox agree, even though they, particularly the Eastern Orthodox, interpret Matthew 16 as attributing much of the authority mentioned therein to the Apostles as a whole, which seems reasonable to me.

However, I completely reject the idea of any malfeasance or intentional deception regarding the general doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. They may be mistaken on some points, but that does not prove any kind of malfeasance. Conversely, I believe we can show malfeasance in several non-Christian cults which exist on the fringes of Christianity and seek to bait and trap Christians, for example, the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Science (which fortunately is dying off; that cult is particularly insidious because of its policy of discouraging to an extreme degree members from seeking medical attention, which has lead to many premature and preventable deaths such as that of Jim Henson, who died from an untreated throat infection; conversely, the Roman Catholic Church and other mainstream churches including Adventists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists and other denominations, and the Jewish community, built many exceedingly good hospitals around the world).

Pastor, the RCC church has a proven track record of gross sins from the early formation of the RCC up until today. Their dealings in WWII, Bank Fraud, Protecting Pedofiels, proven forgeries, not to mention all the many strange things that have taken place. The current Pope's efforts to establish a One World Religion is prophetic. Many believe the Pope / Papacy is the false prophet in end times. I'm not a fan of their doctrine and their history cannot be ignored.
 
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We see examples in the New Testament of Peter having a limited role as servant-leader, not absolute, because Paul, for example, was free to disagree with him firmly and persuaded him to his position, and James the son of Alfeus, the first bishop of the Church of Jerusalem and author of the epistle clearly was presiding at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, but it is clear, and indeed undisputed among the great Protestant reformers (Hus, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Melancthon, and others) that Peter did have some leadership role, and the Orthodox agree, even though they, particularly the Eastern Orthodox, interpret Matthew 16 as attributing much of the authority mentioned therein to the Apostles as a whole, which seems reasonable to me.

I believe that Peter was certainly one of the founders of the early Universal Church but not the Roman Catholic Church. To lay claim that Peter was the first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church goes against his own teachings. I think the RCC claim was an effort to legitimize the RCC and Papacy. I think it's more likely given the RCC Churches history of pagan blend with Christianity that Simon Magus played a more prominent role. I think at the end of the day you have to decide if you believe the Apostle Paul or Roman Catholic tradition.
 
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Amen to that. I am not a universalist but certainly I think scripture makes it clear that God is love and wants to save everyone.

Right, many are called, few are chosen. I take this to mean... God knows who will accept Him (thus answering the call) (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2)... but few are actually chosen in the sense that they will choose of their own free will to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. For Matthew 22:14 sums up the point of the Parable of the Banquet (Matthew 22:1-14). One problem in the Parable of the Banquet is that we see the Father ask a wedding guest as to why they did not have on a wedding garment. Seeing they didn't have one on, they were told to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The wedding garment is the righteousness of the saints.

For we read in Revelation 19:7-8
“Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

And we read in Revelation 3:4-5
“Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

This is in context to saying:

“Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.” (Revelation 3:2-3).

So this means that one's works were not perfect. They soiled their garments by justifying sin in some way (and they most likely did not even realize it was a sin or problem with the Lord).
 
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Butterball1

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Question: So if if God looks to see who will choose Him, and then elects the group comprised of who will choose Him, wouldn't that cease to be election?

So you choose to be chosen? That sounds like divine reaction- not divine election.

God elected a group so those that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then are part of the elect group. So that is election. God elected the group but God does not determine for mankind which individuals will or will not be in the elect group leaving God with no culpability for the lost.

Since man must obey the gospel to be in the elect group, then man must act in obeying the gospel and God acts by adding that person the church (Acts of the Apostles 2:47) which is the elect group.
 
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Amen to that. I am not a universalist but certainly I think scripture makes it clear that God is love and wants to save everyone.

Right, the Bible does not teach Universalism (in that all will be saved in the end). There is clearly a group called the wicked and they will face eternal destruction, and not everlasting life. But yes, God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
 
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HosannaHM

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God elected a group so those that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then are part of the elect group. So that is election. God elected the group but God does not determine for mankind which individuals will or will not be in the elect group leaving God with no culpability for the lost.

Since man must obey the gospel to be in the elect group, then man must act in obeying the gospel and God acts by adding that person the church (Acts of the Apostles 2:47) which is the elect group.

Thanks for the response. How does God elect a group (comprised of individuals) without electing individuals? I'm not understanding. Christians are corporately elected, but not individually elected.... So again: that doesn't sound like anyone was actually elected. If the group of individuals that called upon the Lord had to choose God individually to be elected, then it seems like God didn't elect anyone (in that line of thinking). This is why I said divine reaction. If God is reacting to our choice, corporately or individually, then it appears God is not electing, but responding to us.
 
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God simply elects (chooses) those He knows based on His foreknowledge of those individuals He knows will accept Him as their Savior.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says that believers are elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. So this election is not unconditional as Calvnists would claim.
 
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Simply put, “Elect” is God seeing us accept Jesus in the future corridors of time, and thus He predestines things in our life to make that event favorable for us to accept Jesus. This is perfectly in line with our free will in accepting Jesus. Receiving Jesus is answering the CALL in Matthew 22:14. But the being CHOSEN part in Matthew 22:14 is actually following Jesus in this life. Many Christians today think we do not have to follow Jesus and we are all good with the Lord. But this is simply not the case (See: Matthew 7:26-27).
 
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Faith is a work of God.

Yes, the words of Jesus and the apostles were spoken under inspiration by God, and they were written down as Scripture under the inspiration by God. So yes. Their words and the Scriptures are a work of God. We need to believe these words because they ARE the faith. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This would be believing or obeying your New Testament (or obeying the words of Jesus and His followers). That's the FAITH.

Please read the following verses very slowly and carefully (digesting each and every word).

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:14-17).

It says how can they believe in him in whom have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher? This preacher preaches the gospel of peace. This is how we get the faith. For verse 17 says faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God (the words of the gospel from a preacher). This is not some God enabling a person to have the ability to believe. That's not what this passage is saying about faith. It refers to the faith as God's message the gospel or the word of God (the communication, i.e. the Bible) is the faith.
 
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Clare73

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According to UNconditional Election (in Calvinism), some are forced to be saved against their will, and others are left to be unsaved, or they are Elected to Reprobation. So the problem in Calvinism is that it places the blame on God in who is saved and not saved. So if man sins, it is not really His fault because they had no choice but to sin unless they are one of the lucky ones to be Elected by God.
It would be good to be correctly informed on unconditional election if one is going to speak about it.

Force means against one's will. God forces none of his own against their will.
Rather, he uses their will to cause them to come to him, by changing their anti-God disposition to a pro-God disposition, and they come because they want to come.
 
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Faith is a work of God.

We are told to CONTINUE in the faith. It is also mentioned as a condition. Meaning, it uses the word “if” in there.

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:23).

Faith is our responsbility. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (God) (Hebrews 11:6).
 
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It would be good to be correctly informed on unconditional election if one is going to speak about it.

Force means against one's will. God forces none of his own against their will.
Rather, he uses their will to cause them to come to him, by changing their anti-God disposition to a pro-God disposition, and they come because they want to come.

Right, that is forcing them in that He changes their evil will to be a good will against their own choice. Unless you want to assume that it is Conditional Election and not UNconditional Election. Do you believe in UNconditional Election? If so, there are no conditions in man that makes any change, and God force changes a person's bad will so as to be a good guy and to be saved (Without any say so on the person's part). It's forced. So if a man forces his himself upon a woman, it is not considered love, but it is called rape. God is not like that. God does not force His love upon us by changing us beyond what we choose out of our own free will. We can either choose God or not choose God in this life. Just read Deuteronomy 30:19.
 
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@Clare73

Please read Romans 10:14-17 very slowly and think about each of those words in what they are saying and BELIEVE them. Do not try to re-write them to fit your current belief. Just believe them.
 
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It would be good to be correctly informed on unconditional election if one is going to speak about it.

Force means against one's will. God forces none of his own against their will.
Rather, he uses their will to cause them to come to him, by changing their anti-God disposition to a pro-God disposition, and they come because they want to come.

Agreed. He causes them to be born again. 1 Peter 1:3
 
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