Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Butterball1

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Thanks for the response. How does God elect a group (comprised of individuals) without electing individuals? I'm not understanding. Christians are corporately elected, but not individually elected.... So again: that doesn't sound like anyone was actually elected. If the group of individuals that called upon the Lord had to choose God individually to be elected, then it seems like God didn't elect anyone (in that line of thinking). This is why I said divine reaction. If God is reacting to our choice, corporately or individually, then it appears God is not electing, but responding to us.

God can elect a group without electing the individuals to be in the group, but let the individual decide for himself to be in the group or not. Then choosing to become part of the group makes one of the elect, very simple.

A bus driver can take a group of people to a certain destination. Yet the bus driver does not determine which individuals will or will not buy a ticket. ANYONE that chooses to buy a ticket then becomes part of the group taken to the location. Likewise anyone who makes himself part of the group by obeying God and by doing so leaves God without culpability for the loss. Having God choose for man which individuals will or will not be of the elect not only makes God culpable for the lost but also makes Him a repsecter of person when He is not (Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35).

Jonah 3 God does respond to what man does. God thru Jonah said yet 40 days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. But Nineveh repented and God reacted...."And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." So those sinners that repent and obey the gospel in that sense "save themselves" (Acts of the APostles 2:40) for God makes those who obey Him part of the elect.
 
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HosannaHM

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Simply put, “Elect” is God seeing us accept Jesus in the future corridors of time, and thus He predestines things in our life to make that event favorable for us to accept Jesus. This is perfectly in line with our free will in accepting Jesus. Receiving Jesus is answering the CALL in Matthew 22:14. But the being CHOSEN part in Matthew 22:14 is actually following Jesus in this life. Many Christians today think we do not have to follow Jesus and we are all good with the Lord. But this is simply not the case (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

Remember that plain reading of the text you kept pointing us to in the other thread? That is not the plain reading of "elect" in any sense of the word. Choosing to be chosen is not actually being chosen at all. If the bible meant election in the way you are defining it, it would cease to be election. It is reaction. This position requires God to be a responder, not an initiator. That is not what the bible teaches. You quoted 1 Peter 1:1-2. How about go one more? Where it says God "caused us to be born again". 1 Peter 1:3. God moves first. We shouldn't change the meaning of words to fit our theological systems. It looks like you're augmenting the term "elect" in order to defend free will.
 
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Remember that plain reading of the text you kept pointing us to in the other thread? That is not the plain reading of "elect" in any sense of the word. Choosing to be chosen is not actually being chosen at all. If the bible meant election in the way you are defining it, it would cease to be election. It is reaction. This position requires God to be a responder, not an initiator. That is not what the bible teaches. You quoted 1 Peter 1:1-2. How about go one more? Where it says God "caused us to be born again". 1 Peter 1:3. God moves first. We shouldn't change the meaning of words to fit our theological systems. It looks like you're augmenting the term "elect" in order to defend free will.

It says as plain as day in 1 Peter 1:1-2 that the believers are elected according to foreknowledge of God the Father.

1 Peter 1:1-2 KJV
[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, [2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

This passage does not say these believers are Elect according to no conditions.
 
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HosannaHM

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God can elect a group without electing the individuals to be in the group, but let the individual decide for himself to be in the group or not. Then choosing to become part of the group makes one of the elect, very simple.

A bus driver can take a group of people to a certain destination. Yet the bus driver does not determine which individuals will or will not buy a ticket. ANYONE that chooses to buy a ticket then becomes part of the group taken to the location. Likewise anyone who makes himself part of the group by obeying God and by doing so leaves God without culpability for the loss. Having God choose for man which individuals will or will not be of the elect not only makes God culpable for the lost but also makes Him a repsecter of person when He is not (Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35).

Jonah 3 God does respond to what man does. God thru Jonah said yet 40 days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. But Nineveh repented and God reacted...."And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." So those sinners that repent and obey the gospel in that sense "save themselves" (Acts of the APostles 2:40) for God makes those who obey Him part of the elect.

I have no trouble reconciling "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord" with "chosen before the foundation of the world". If one is born again, not of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God, they will call upon the Lord because the affections of the heart have changed. Of course we decide, but a dead man (Ephesians 2:1,2) must be born again to desire God. The question is not a matter of choice. Of course we choose. The question is why do we choose?

I don't find the illustration simple/easy to understand at all. It's like picking a baseball team but not getting anyone to be on the team. Hope we have enough when the game starts. How impersonal that is too. Paul talks about the riches of being known by Christ, being predestined in LOVE before the foundation of the world. I find it to be changing the meaning of a term to fit into a theological framework. A God of our own choosing.
 
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HosannaHM

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It says as plain as day in 1 Peter 1:1-2 that the believers are elected according to foreknowledge of God the Father.

1 Peter 1:1-2 KJV
[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, [2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

This passage does not say these believers are Elect according to no conditions.

Were we talking about conditions? Plain reading brother.
 
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Clare73

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Yes, the words of Jesus and the apostles were spoken under inspiration by God, and they were written down as Scripture under the inspiration by God. So yes. Their words and the Scriptures are a work of God. We need to believe these words because they ARE the faith. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This would be believing or obeying your New Testament (or obeying the words of Jesus and His followers). That's the FAITH.
"The faith" is used of the system of Christianity to which one belongs. . .those of "the faith,"
as distinct from belief and trust themselves.


That is not the NT meaning of "faith," which is belief in, trust on.
Please read the following verses very slowly and carefully (digesting each and every word).

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:14-17).
Precisely, the disposition to faith, which is of God--but is not faith itself until it has an object in which to believe and on which to trust--responds with belief to the gospel when it is heard.
Note that "faith" in the text refers to the actual exercise of belief/trust, rather than to a system to which one belongs.
It says how can they believe in him in whom have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher? This preacher preaches the gospel of peace. This is how we get the faith.
You are not understanding "faith" in the NT sense of belief in and trust on, but are using it to mean a system of religion to which one belongs.
For verse 17 says faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God (the words of the gospel from a preacher). This is not some God enabling a person to have the ability to believe. That's not what this passage is saying about faith. It refers to the faith as God's message the gospel or the word of God (the communication, i.e. the Bible) is the faith.
Yes, that is one of the meanings of "faith," but that is not the meaning used here, as we see in all the references to it as "belief," and belief is only by the enablement of God, for
"No one comes to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
 
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BNR32FAN

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God elected a group so those that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then are part of the elect group. So that is election. God elected the group but God does not determine for mankind which individuals will or will not be in the elect group leaving God with no culpability for the lost.

Since man must obey the gospel to be in the elect group, then man must act in obeying the gospel and God acts by adding that person the church (Acts of the Apostles 2:47) which is the elect group.

Amen like Peter said in 1 Peter 1 those who are chosen according to His foreknowledge.
 
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Were we talking about conditions? Plain reading brother.

It's called UNconditional Election in Calvinism. So if you hold to UNconditional Election, then 1 Peter 1:1-2 would present a contradiction in such a belief.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It would be good to be correctly informed on unconditional election if one is going to speak about it.

Force means against one's will. God forces none of his own against their will.
Rather, he uses their will to cause them to come to him, by changing their anti-God disposition to a pro-God disposition, and they come because they want to come.

I don’t see this taking place in Romans 2:4-5. In Romans 2:4-5 Paul specifically states that thru God’s kindness and patience He is leading them to repentance but because of their stubbornness they are building up for themselves the righteous wrath of God on judgement day. So here we see God urging people to repent and yet they are choosing not to. So the question becomes does God actually cause us to change or does He enable us to change? I believe He enables us to change He doesn’t cause us to change otherwise these people in Romans 2 would not be able to resist repentance.
 
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"No one comes to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Read John 6:45. It says, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45).

In other words, the condition of those who are able to come to Jesus by the Father giving them to Jesus is that they were taught of God (i.e. they have HEARD and LEARNED of the Father by studying Scripture). For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
 
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It's called UNconditional Election in Calvinism. So if you hold to UNconditional Election, then 1 Peter 1:1-2 would present a contradiction in such a belief.

And Romans 2:4-5. These people have obviously been granted God’s grace which is the only way He could be leading them to repentance and yet they still refuse to repent thereby forfeiting their election to salvation. So evidently the election is conditional.
 
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Clare73

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God elected a group so those that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then are part of the elect group.
Amen like Peter said in 1 Peter 1 those who are chosen according to His foreknowledge.
That's not the way Paul presents election in Romans 9:10-21.
 
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God elected a group so those that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then are part of the elect group.

That's not the way Paul presents election in Romans 9:10-21.

Romans 9 is not about election. Romans 9 is about God having mercy on the Gentiles who were not seeking it nor deserving of it.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is why He said “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy”. Not according to he who runs..

So how do you explain Romans 2:4-5?
 
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God elected a group so those that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then are part of the elect group.

That's not the way Paul presents election in Romans 9:10-21.

So what are your thoughts on this statement from Christ?

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Were these people who were seeking to kill Christ elected to salvation?
 
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Clare73

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Yes, that is one of the meanings of "faith," but that is not the meaning used here, as we see in all the references to it as "belief," and belief is only by the enablement of God, for
"No one comes to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
Read John 6:45. It says, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45).
And in the context, to whom is the "all" referring? To those who have listened and learned, (v.45), who were enabled by the Father (v.44), which does not include everyone. The only ones who listen and learn are those those whom the Father has enabled (John 6:44).
In other words, the condition of those who are able to come to Jesus by the Father giving them to Jesus is that they were taught of God (i.e. they have HEARD and LEARNED of the Father by studying Scripture). For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Precisely, and they were taught of God because they were enabled by the Father to listen and learn (John 6:44-45).
 
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And in the context, to whom is the "all" referring? To those who have listened and learned, (v.45), who were enabled by the Father (v.44), which does not include everyone. The only ones who listen and learn are those those whom the Father has enabled (John 6:44).
Precisely, and they were taught of God because they were enabled by the Father to listen and learn (John 6:44-45).

The people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5, were they enabled to listen and learn?
 
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HosannaHM

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It's called UNconditional Election in Calvinism. So if you hold to UNconditional Election, then 1 Peter 1:1-2 would present a contradiction in such a belief.

I know this, but we weren't talking about Calvinism and unconditional election were we? We were talking about what the bible plainly says. Just simply looking at the word "elect" gives the idea of God choosing, not us. You may think I believe the bible through the lens of Calvinism. Nope. I'm just reading the bible and coming to the conclusion that Scripture teaches.

It seems like you're wanting to move the goalpost to talk about Calvinism, and I'm just talking Scripture.
 
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I know this, but we weren't talking about Calvinism and unconditional election were we? We were talking about what the bible plainly says. Just simply looking at the word "elect" gives the idea of God choosing, not us. You may think I believe the bible through the lens of Calvinism. Nope. I'm just reading the bible and coming to the conclusion that Scripture teaches.

It seems like you're wanting to move the goalpost to talk about Calvinism, and I'm just talking Scripture.

But 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that they were chosen according to His foreknowledge. His foreknowledge of what?
 
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Clare73

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Romans 9 is not about election.
"--in order that God's purpose in election might stand. . .she was told 'The older will serve the younger.' " (Romans 9:11)
Romans 9 is about God having mercy on the Gentiles who were not seeking it nor deserving of it.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
This is why He said “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy”. Not according to he who runs..
So how do you explain Romans 2:4-5?
Paul has just demonstrated the unrighteousness of the Gentiles in chp 1.
In chp 2, he shows the unrighteousness of the Jews, in his establishing all mankind to be unrighteous. . .so that all righteousness is from God only.

He is addressing the Jews in 2:4-5, telling them that the purpose of God's kindness is to give them, who had misconstrued his patience to be a lack of intent to judge, opportunity for repentance (as we see in 2 Peter 3:9), because by not repenting of their unbelief in Jesus Christ, they were storing up wrath against themselves for the day of God's wrath; i.e., judgment at the end of time (in contrast to the judgment on the Gentiles being revealed 1:18-32).

Not sure why you asked. . .
 
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HosannaHM

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Romans 9 is not about election. Romans 9 is about God having mercy on the Gentiles who were not seeking it nor deserving of it.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is why He said “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy”. Not according to he who runs..

So how do you explain Romans 2:4-5?

It's about both: God's choice and Jews/Gentiles
 
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