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Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Points To Ponder, May 4, 2021 at 5:09 PM.

  1. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.
     
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  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    The doctrine of predestination does not conflict with human responsibility, but rather works with it. Yes, God elects some to eternal life, but the way they receive it is through a saving faith in Christ, and that can only occur when the Holy Spirit regenerates that sinner under the preaching of the gospel.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Indeed.

    “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29).

    I have been having a similar discussion in this recent thread here, brother.

    Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    According to UNconditional Election (in Calvinism), some are forced to be saved against their will, and others are left to be unsaved, or they are Elected to Reprobation. So the problem in Calvinism is that it places the blame on God in who is saved and not saved. So if man sins, it is not really His fault because they had no choice but to sin unless they are one of the lucky ones to be Elected by God.
     
  5. ICONO'CLAST

    ICONO'CLAST Well-Known Member

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    Yes exactly.God ordains the means as well as people;
    1689 LBC: Chapter 3: "Of God's Decree"
    1689 LBC: Chapter 10: "Of Effectual Calling"
    Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
    1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
    ( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
    2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
    ( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

    3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
    ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

    4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
    ( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
     
  6. ICONO'CLAST

    ICONO'CLAST Well-Known Member

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    Why make a false caricature when you can read and learn the real position right here;
    The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If God elects (forces) some to believe, then He by default is forcing others to be unsaved against their will or free will choice. That is not the God of the Bible. God gets angry at sin in the Bible. That would not make sense in light of Calvinism.
     
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  8. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I am free grace and Revelation 3:20 is not a verse dealing with salvation. This verse is addressed to believers who are out of fellowship.

    Use Revelation 3:20 as it was intended: to call believers back to fellowship with God.

    Grace in Focus
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No offense, but I believe Calvinism is about as silly as believing in flat Earth.
    Would you read an article on the flat Earth?
    I sure hope not.
    Also, those guys back then also wrote in a way that is very difficult to understand.
    If you can provide a more up to date belief in how UNconditional Election is not God forcing some to be saved and by default forcing others to not be saved. I mean, it is called UNconditional Election for a reason. According to Calvinism: There is no conditions within man that God would have chosen them to elect them.

    Side Note:

    This is not my first rodeo in discussing Calvinism, either.
    I have been discussing it for about 10 years.
    I have read many of their own statements online admitting this stuff to me.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But then how do you deal with 2 Thessalonians 2:10? It says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no... MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism. But that's what my Bible says. I will stick with my Bible instead.
     
  11. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    No, but rather Ezekiel 36:26-27 and John 6:44. God forces no one to be saved, nor does he force others to be damned.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is dealing with the time during the Millennium. The context is Israel and their receiving of their land along with being in the New Covenant.

    John 6:44 is saying that no man can come to GOD on their own terms. Meaning if they disobey God's Word or the Scriptures, then GOD is not going to abide in their life and they are not going to have a relationship with GOD in order to be guided by GOD.

    John 6:45 is referring to the Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED of the Father (Suggesting that they have a relationship with GOD) so as to be guided by GOD to come to Jesus. They are guided or drawn by GOD to come to Jesus because they have a relationship with GOD the Father. Without this relationship, they cannot be drawn or guided by GOD.

    It's that simple.

    Having GOD in your life means you get the benefits (like being drawn, illuminated, etc.). How does one have GOD and or Jesus in their life? Jesus says if you keep my commandments, the Father and Jesus will make their home or abode in you (See: John 14:23). One of these commands is to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).

    Does it make any sense for GOD to command you to believe in Him if GOD is the One who makes a person to believe? Why give us a commandment if it is GOD who ultimately forces us to believe? It makes no sense. God gives us commands because we have a free will choice to either obey His commands or disobey them. For if a Robot was programmed to do a certain function and yet I commanded the robot to do what it was already programmed to do, it would be kind of pointless.

    So you don't believe in UNconditional Election?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 6:32 PM
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus said, “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).
    In other words, Jesus basically said “repent or perish.”

    How can the Elect ever be in danger of ever perishing?
    How can the Non-Elect have the ability to repent?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 6:22 PM
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

    “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 6:20 PM
  15. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I cut and pasted this from another discussion on Predestination. I believe we have a free will choice, that we are not selected for salvation in the Calvinistic sense.

    I believe that each of us are given during our lives bursts of light, revelation of God. All of us will encounter God at some point in our lives. How we respond to this knowledge will determine the course of our lives. If we respond with thankfulness, and turn to Christ, then His good plan is begun in our lives. If we harden our hearts against God, and refuse all of His mercy, then our eyes will be darkened to the truth, and eventually we will perish.

    I believe it happens as follows:

    God shows us His will and nature, of forgiveness, and asks us to turn from sin to God.

    Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools


    This turning to love for God, and His commands is what ultimately brings about saving grace.

    John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


    1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

    Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

    Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

    People who turn from God to sin will eventually perish, if they refuse to return and repent. They become spiritually blind.


    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    But this salvation is held out to all people, not just a select few. The Elect are those who turn to God, who respond to His invitation of life. They are still selected by God, but based upon the fact they respond to His offer of forgiveness.


    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    I also discuss predestination here Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry
     
  16. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    And there's the rub. Under calvinist thinking, no one is really ever in danger of hell. They are either irresistibly chosen for salvation or for damnation.
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    It has both an historical and christological meaning. You'll find the same thing in almost all the quotes in the New Testament. For an example, Matthew 2:12 quotes Hosea 11:1, but that chapter discusses the nation of Israel; Matthew 2:18 quotes Jeremiah 31:15, but that chapter in Jeremiah is referring to the invasion of the Babylonians. This means that there is christological meaning in many places throughout the Old Testament that the historical context typifies and/or reflects. Otherwise, the apostles were misquoting and twisting passages for their own agenda.
    This doesn't fit the context. The Jews rejected him and his difficult statements about himself, and he responds that unless the Father draws them they cannot come to receive him. The Greek word for "draw" is not an influence, but is used for dragging a fish-net from the water. He reiterates this in John 6:65, but in a different way by saying, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” I would like to hear your interpretation of that verse too.
    He is quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34, which says the same thing in the previous quote I referenced from Ezekiel. "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (v. 33). He will change their hearts, and write his law on them. This is how God brings sinners, predestined, to eternal life. He changes their hostile disposition and draws them effectually to repentance under the gospel.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Indeed.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    What New Testament passage, or verse do you believe directly takes from Ezekiel 36:26-27?
    I don't believe this is in reference to the Gentiles. I believe it is clearly talking to Israel.

    Jesus had first come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). Jesus told specifically the disciples not to go into the way of the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5). So Jesus was referring to the Jews because that was his audience in John 6:44. He was not talking to Gentiles. The disciples were Jewish and they did receive his message.

    Again, the context is verse 45 (See: John 6:45).

    Only the Jew who has LEARNED of the Father (obviously by studying the Scriptures) is drawn by God to come unto Jesus.
    So this is not a case for Calvinism.

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 is clearly dealing with the time of the Millennium.
    Verse 34 says:

    “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me,” (Jeremiah 31:34).

    The Millennium is the only time where they will not say, “know the LORD.”
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, Revelation 3:20 says “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

    While this is said to the church at Laodicea only, then why does it say if ANY MAN hear my voice?
     
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