Predestination... real or not?

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Nachtjager

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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination. My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ, because if the predetermination thing is accurate, God already knows if they’ll accept Him or not - and if that is the case, does anyone really have the option of accepting or rejecting Jesus as their Savior? If, as the predestined crowd tells me, God already knows who will and will not be saved, doesn’t that make any act of faith a completely futile exercise? To me, if you have no choice, consciously or not, you have no choice. And why would our God want us to be predestined to go to hell?
I recently read a piece by R.C. Sproul, who I greatly admire, which said this same thing - that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell before we’re even born. As for me, as a Christian, I simply cannot accept that premise. It makes no sense to me. For what it’s worth, I believe my God offers us choices to see if we will choose to serve Him.
God, I believe, wants a legitimate loving relationship with those who choose to believe and accept His son. Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born? Why would a merciful God condemn someone without giving them a chance at salvation? I cannot accept the concept of predestination. Someone please help me out here, am I alone on this? Am I missing something?
Thanks to all, take care and God bless!:wave:
 

PaladinValer

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The question is:

Does God create souls that He fully knows, before He creates them, He will send off to hell anyhow because Christ didn't die for a certain number of them, or does He create souls that He sent His Son to die for all of them that they all will have a chance to experience salvation and Grace?

I believe in the latter. I believe in singular predestination, that God died for all and that due to Christ, the whole world is saved from death and they simply need to claim their salvation. I reject double predestination, which is the first option, which dictates God did not die for all humanity.
 
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angelmom01

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HI Nachtjager :wave:

We have to be given a choice in order to make a choice, though, don't we? :thumbsup:

If missionaries/disciples aren't sent then how do we hear about the gospel in order to "choose"? :D

Rom 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 HOW then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and HOW shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and HOW shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And HOW shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, HOW BEAUTIFUL are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! :clap:


It is "by the foolishness of preaching" that we are saved: ^_^


1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching ~to save~ them that believe.


I guess that answers the question about making "choices" and about "preaching the gospel"... but not really predestination.^_^

But it is a biblical concept:

Eph 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to HIS good pleasure which he hath purposed IN HIMSELF: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Some will say that it simply means that God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of who who will and who will not accept Christ and be saved... others will say that God DETERMINED who will and who will not be saved from the very beginning....

In the first case, God (being God) simply knows what we will choose and it is still we who CHOOSE (or don't choose) to be saved.

In the second case it was determined BY GOD from the very beginning and it has nothing to do with our own "free will" to choose one or the other.

Would a God who is LOVE predestinate those who HE created to an eternity of suffering/separation/hell? :(

 
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Ceridwen

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Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born?
If you are willing to believe that God punishes Buddhists with hell, then what is the big step in agreeing that God planned on doing so in the first place? The punishments will be no less severe one way or the other.

In either case, God plans to curse all non-Christians.
 
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Jipsah

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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination.


1 Ephesians
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
Pretty much everyone believes that God is omniscient. If He weren't, He wouldn't be God, would He? If that takes away your will to live, well, sorry.

If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ
You really believe that God needs our salesmanship to get people saved? That God somehow needs our help? Please.

God is omniscient, God is sovereign, God rules. Stop whining.
 
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PaladinValer

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"God has no hands but ours, God has no feet but ours. Ours are the hands in which God works in the world; ours is the feet"...well, you get what I mean: antinomianism is simply wrong, God wants the whole world to come unto Him, and He's already given everyone a free ticket to use. And it is our job, as Christians, to ensure everyone realizes they have that ticket in their back pocket.

Just because you don't believe in the Son's universal salvation doesn't mean it didn't occur. It has nothing to do with omniscience or sovereignty: It has to do with Grace and Love.
 
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Optimax

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There is a lot of confusion on it, however a study of scriptures reveal this(to me).

Predestination. Real or not?

Yes it is real and it works like this. Very simple.

Those that are born again before they die are predestined to a Super future.

Those that are not born again before they die are predestined to a ........., well its bad.

No one is predestined to heaven or hell.

Each individual is allowed to choose for themselves.

Well. I am certainly glad we got that cleared up. ;)
 
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breakfastclub17

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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination. My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ, because if the predetermination thing is accurate, God already knows if they’ll accept Him or not - and if that is the case, does anyone really have the option of accepting or rejecting Jesus as their Savior? If, as the predestined crowd tells me, God already knows who will and will not be saved, doesn’t that make any act of faith a completely futile exercise? To me, if you have no choice, consciously or not, you have no choice. And why would our God want us to be predestined to go to hell?
I recently read a piece by R.C. Sproul, who I greatly admire, which said this same thing - that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell before we’re even born. As for me, as a Christian, I simply cannot accept that premise. It makes no sense to me. For what it’s worth, I believe my God offers us choices to see if we will choose to serve Him.
God, I believe, wants a legitimate loving relationship with those who choose to believe and accept His son. Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born? Why would a merciful God condemn someone without giving them a chance at salvation? I cannot accept the concept of predestination. Someone please help me out here, am I alone on this? Am I missing something?
Thanks to all, take care and God bless!:wave:
I know, it boggled my mind too.

I believe in PRE-D, after having a talk with my pastor, and looking at Romans 9, "I" now believe that PRE-D is right.(whether he PRE-D'd us or lets us choose, he knows the future; so in a sense, he still picks his choosen)(seeing how which ever one he does his his will)
 
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WarriorAngel

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God knows our choices, doesn't mean God doesn't give us a choice.

Someone explained it as this;
God looks at us [without time since He is outside of time], and he looks at as if he is seeing a ruler, seeing beginning and end.

Free will is always present....but our time is slooooooowed down compared to God, Who doesn't have time.

WE are living what God already saw. Our lives are kinda like living in a real slow motion movie... :D

Help ya??
 
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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination. My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ, because if the predetermination thing is accurate, God already knows if they’ll accept Him or not - and if that is the case, does anyone really have the option of accepting or rejecting Jesus as their Savior? If, as the predestined crowd tells me, God already knows who will and will not be saved, doesn’t that make any act of faith a completely futile exercise? To me, if you have no choice, consciously or not, you have no choice. And why would our God want us to be predestined to go to hell?
I recently read a piece by R.C. Sproul, who I greatly admire, which said this same thing - that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell before we’re even born. As for me, as a Christian, I simply cannot accept that premise. It makes no sense to me. For what it’s worth, I believe my God offers us choices to see if we will choose to serve Him.
God, I believe, wants a legitimate loving relationship with those who choose to believe and accept His son. Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born? Why would a merciful God condemn someone without giving them a chance at salvation? I cannot accept the concept of predestination. Someone please help me out here, am I alone on this? Am I missing something?
Thanks to all, take care and God bless!:wave:

The whole key is that man doesn't know who will be saved and who won't be. So we are all without excuse if we don't seek redemption. ;)
 
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ArcticFox

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Much of the nature of predestination is a mystery. We know some things for certain, however.

God has elected us before the foundation of the world for the purpose of glorifying him (Ephesians 1). We also know that Christ chooses us, not the other way around (John 15:16). We know that no one is able to come to Christ without the Father drawing that person:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

We know that we are dead in our trespasses and sins before Christ converts us (Ephesians 2). We know that we are spiritually unable to discern truth prior to conversion:

1Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

God must quicken us unto life (Ephesians 2), and then we can see his glory and majesty, and come to him.

However, the truth of predestination does not undo any other truth of the Scriptures; it is not in conflict with any other truth. We are predestined, and we also work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God who works in us (Phil. 2:12-13).

All the warnings and promises of Scripture stand in their full truth and glory, and can only be true because predestination is true. God works all things to our good because he is working all things truly and sovereignly (Romans 8:28-30).

God does not just bait us with good news and hope that we come, he sovereignly calls us into his grace. If he didn't, there would be no hope in prayer, because God could do nothing more than we can do to save a soul. This is not a theological argument, but a logical argument. I've provided the theological basis above.

It is also true that we do not accept Christ because we hate the truth; predestination does not eliminate full responsibility:


Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,* but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

No one can restrain God's hand, because he does what he wills; he is the decisive factor in our salvation, not us. Can we blame God for our damnation? Indeed we cannot!

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

I urge you to love this truth of predestination, seek to know it more. Do not pursue this truth by visiting sites that are contrary to it, or hate it; they will almost always present a false version of this truth and then easily knock it down. Pursue this truth by visiting websites that will give you an accurate portrayal of how it is viewed by those who believe it.

Recommended site:

http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...e_Believe_About_the_Five_Points_of_Calvinism/

I hope you learn to love it as God's truth!

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us* for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known* to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

AMEN!
 
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SpiritDriven

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The Original poster has touched on the...Highness... of Gods ways..

The more you study religion the more you will come to relise....man worships himself.

We are all part of Gods plan, nobody is excluded...

Rom 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

One day... all... shall call upon the name of the Lord....


Peace
 
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DeltaOne7487

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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination. My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ, because if the predetermination thing is accurate, God already knows if they’ll accept Him or not - and if that is the case, does anyone really have the option of accepting or rejecting Jesus as their Savior? If, as the predestined crowd tells me, God already knows who will and will not be saved, doesn’t that make any act of faith a completely futile exercise? To me, if you have no choice, consciously or not, you have no choice. And why would our God want us to be predestined to go to hell?
I recently read a piece by R.C. Sproul, who I greatly admire, which said this same thing - that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell before we’re even born. As for me, as a Christian, I simply cannot accept that premise. It makes no sense to me. For what it’s worth, I believe my God offers us choices to see if we will choose to serve Him.
God, I believe, wants a legitimate loving relationship with those who choose to believe and accept His son. Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born? Why would a merciful God condemn someone without giving them a chance at salvation? I cannot accept the concept of predestination. Someone please help me out here, am I alone on this? Am I missing something?
Thanks to all, take care and God bless!:wave:

I believe the answer lies in the realm of time and eternity. Because God is the creator of time, He is outside of it. As such, somehow He can see the past, present, and future simultaneously. We live our lives. We make our choices. We decide what we want to about God and other such issues. It is our decision and God, being a gentleman won't force Himself upon us.

It is true that God knows what we will do before we even do it (because He can see the future just as clearly as He sees the present), but it does not stand to reason that He causes the events in our lives to happen or govern the responses in our lives to events and ultimately to Him. e.g. We know the sun will rise in the morning but we have no influence over it.

I believe that a form of predestination exists ... that is, that when ever anyone accepts Jesus that they are then predestined to become like Him and become an adopted son or daughter of God.

Really, the issue is more denominational than anything else. You shouldn't ask us for what we think, you should form your own opinion on the topic based on your perceptions of God's character and Scripture, and a lot of logic. I mean, if predestination is true in the sense that I'm chosen to go to hell while you go to heaven, then what's the point of evangelism? Why did Jesus take on the sins of the whole world? Why did He say that who-so-ever could come to Him and find forgiveness?

You seem to have it already worked out though. You know that logically, the concept of predestination (i.e. one goes to hell the other doesn't) just doesn't stick. Keep with your view IMO as the alternative casts God in a dubious light.
 
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BigNorsk

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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination. My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ, because if the predetermination thing is accurate, God already knows if they’ll accept Him or not - and if that is the case, does anyone really have the option of accepting or rejecting Jesus as their Savior? If, as the predestined crowd tells me, God already knows who will and will not be saved, doesn’t that make any act of faith a completely futile exercise? To me, if you have no choice, consciously or not, you have no choice. And why would our God want us to be predestined to go to hell?
I recently read a piece by R.C. Sproul, who I greatly admire, which said this same thing - that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell before we’re even born. As for me, as a Christian, I simply cannot accept that premise. It makes no sense to me. For what it’s worth, I believe my God offers us choices to see if we will choose to serve Him.
God, I believe, wants a legitimate loving relationship with those who choose to believe and accept His son. Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born? Why would a merciful God condemn someone without giving them a chance at salvation? I cannot accept the concept of predestination. Someone please help me out here, am I alone on this? Am I missing something?
Thanks to all, take care and God bless!:wave:

Well, I suppose we could just say you were ordained to have these questions, but that wouldn't be very satisfying would it?

At some point, when desiring to know the hidden things of God, we get into thoughts that are just flat out wrong. We might thing, Hmm God predestined, we sin, therefore, God made us sin. Full Stop!

That is a bad place to be mentally.

You are really hitting on one of the major differences between Luther and Calvin. Both taught monergism for salvation, but Luther taught that when we are condemned it is due to us, not God. That Jesus died for the sins of the world, not just part of the world, that he commissioned us to spread the Word to the whole world, and that God's Word is indeed powerful and is not intended not to convert people but is aimed at everryone.

So when Calvinists try to understand Luther, they end up calling his system single predestination. Predestined only for salvation.

See people can resist God, indeed that is all they can do. Even those people who are saved still are free to resist.

So take Calvinism and Adam and Eve and you end up with God ordained the fall of man.

Take Luther and Adam and Eve and you have God providing paradise, and Adam and Eve chosing to reject it and eat of the fruit. So the fall of mankind is due to Adam and Eve, not God.

It's quite a difference.

Here's an interesting Luther quote on predestination:
A dispute about predestination should be avoided entirely... I forget everything about Christ and God when I come upon these thoughts and actually get to the point to imagining that God is a rogue. We must stay in the word, in which God is revealed to us and salvation is offered, if we believe him. But in thinking about predestination, we forget God . . However, in Christ are hid all the treasures (Col. 2:3); outside him all are locked up. Therefore, we should simply refuse to argue about election.

Such a disputation is so very displeasing to God that he has instituted Baptism, the spoken Word, and the Lord’s Supper to counteract the temptation to engage in it. In these, let us persist and constantly say., I am baptized I believe in Jesus. I care nothing about the disputation concerning predestination.

Marv
 
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Okay, somebody help me out here. I have a huge problem with the whole premise of predestination or predetermination, whatever you’d like to call it. I just don’t see any logic or point in total and complete predetermination. My problem is, if God knows absolutely everything in advance, who will be saved, who will not be saved, who will go to hell, who will come to Christ, then what’s the point of continuing the world?
If I accept on the face of it, the most basic explanation of this, then I don’t see a need for missionaries, witnessing, or doing anything to win people for Christ, because if the predetermination thing is accurate, God already knows if they’ll accept Him or not - and if that is the case, does anyone really have the option of accepting or rejecting Jesus as their Savior? If, as the predestined crowd tells me, God already knows who will and will not be saved, doesn’t that make any act of faith a completely futile exercise? To me, if you have no choice, consciously or not, you have no choice. And why would our God want us to be predestined to go to hell?
I recently read a piece by R.C. Sproul, who I greatly admire, which said this same thing - that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell before we’re even born. As for me, as a Christian, I simply cannot accept that premise. It makes no sense to me. For what it’s worth, I believe my God offers us choices to see if we will choose to serve Him.
God, I believe, wants a legitimate loving relationship with those who choose to believe and accept His son. Why would any all-powerful omnipotent being want to condemn His creations to hell before they were even born? Why would a merciful God condemn someone without giving them a chance at salvation? I cannot accept the concept of predestination. Someone please help me out here, am I alone on this? Am I missing something?
Thanks to all, take care and God bless!:wave:

Jesus once told me to stop trying to figure him out and just follow him. To keep it simple we are to hear his Word and live it. Now I don’t ask him why, when he tells me to do something, I just do it.
 
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SpiritDriven

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I think perhaps we are all a bit off track........

We are only here by the will of God to begin with or we would not exist at all to begin with......it is not so much that God is a master of time....its more like we cannot do anything with out him....we are not capable of effecting out comes for ourselves out side of God enacting.

No we are not puppets or robots....we are even lower than that...we are just wet clods of clay baking in the sun, not capable of doing or enacting on anything outside of the will of God.

Some would try to apply our hoplessly inadequate logic to God as to why he does things the way he has chosen too....and as a result we would come no closer to understanding the...highness....of his ways, than a wooden rocking chair would be able to comprhend the ways of the carpenter that just made that chair = a total non event.


A man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps (Jeremiah 10:23).



Peace
 
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