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Predestination/"Free Will"

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by new2calvin, Oct 15, 2002.

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  1. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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    Consider this; you have a purpose here. Perhaps being the voice of reason is that purpose. I would propose that leaving because you don't care for the feel here is not as noble as weathering the storm and trying to make a change.

    We are told that serving Christ will be uncomfortable at times. Maybe this area is where you are needed the most.

    Alot is lost in the absence of actual voice contact. I feel that alot of what I say is taken as being angry when that is not my intention. I am a business man and often I cut to the chase and forget to allow grace to flow through me as it should.

    Your post re-enforces the need in me to guard this behavior.
     
  2. FOMWatts<><

    FOMWatts<>< Follower of the Way

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    Well Gabriel,

    Know that I was not referring to you in specific terms in my post. I saw no more problem with your posts as with the others. I have been a member of CF for a long while now, and have been a mod for most of that time. This is not my first post or "storm", so I'm not just thorwing in the towel and giving up, I have prayerfully decided that my calling is not in the foolish arguments of brothers and sisters in Christ, but in the lost and dying people of this forum. I will continue in stride to encourage you guys in all the ways that I can, but as the Bible instructs in Titus:

    3:9
    But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

    Anyway, I'm not quitting the forums, just gonna hand the torch to someone else to moderate youguys.

    Blessings,

    FOMWatts<><
     
  3. Eze 36 26 28

    Eze 36 26 28 New Member

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    FOMWATTS&lt;&gt;&lt;

    I find it very encouraging that you are following your heart, and have first made it very clear that you have prayed about it1 =D

    On the other hand, I do disagree with your opinion of this. I find that this thread very relevant and far from being a pointless quarrel. I believe that Paul knew exactly what he believed on this issue. This issue has a lot of implications, main one being what is our responsibility in salvation.

    Do you not see the 2 sides, if God will sanctify us completely, then why should we try ourselves? Why not just leave it all to God? If God doesn't sanctify us completely, then what really is falilng from grace, how far do I have to go before I can say I have fallen?

    More practical issues of this debate are for example, marriage. Do we have one single soulmate on this earth, made specially for us(assuming we don't have the gift of celebacy) or are there a few practical, compatible mates there, and we have to use our own god given knowledge to make the best choice..... You see the difference and how this impacts how we see all aspects of life??? Another example, if you were given 2 offers, one is a job and the other seminary, do you effectively only have one choice, which is the correct god ordained choice, or are you supposed to make the best choice you can make, but either is possible...

    =D I haven't been here very long, so therefore I don't really know exactly what happened in these posts(I was too lazy to read through all of them =D) but please consider staying. Remember, 1 Thes. 4:8. He who rejects the teachings of the scripture is rejecting not man, but God. If you find a personal solution to this problem, then your view on a lot ministries will be different. Sadly, my answer is still far from me.

    Warning! I do not say that agreeing to disagree is a good thing. 2nd Peter 1:20. There is only 1 correct reading of scripture, regardless of the writer... =D Just keep that in mind.

    To Gabriel, I share your affliction. =( It is hard to see where other people are coming from sometimes, but something that really helped me is 1st Timothy 1:5. "The goal of our instruction is love, from a pure heart, clean conscience and a sincere faith". Remember, we are called to love first, ok?&nbsp; Also, I find that pride is very often a mechanism by which this happens.&nbsp; Look at 2 Cor 2:19.&nbsp; I find it very encouraging.&nbsp; When reading it, Just keep in mind who is writing it, ok?&nbsp;

    Your brother and In his grace,
     
  4. FOMWatts<><

    FOMWatts<>< Follower of the Way

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    Again, I am not leaving. I am simply switching the area that I moderate. :D

    The classification of a pointless, TO ME, is an argument with no end. This one for example is going in the largest circles possible.

    You are right Paul knew what he believed on this topic, and he DID NOT argue his points, he simply gave his point and left it at that. Sure he got angry with the peopel that didn't agree, but he knew that to argue with people would not only NOT win the argument, but it wasn't glorifying to God. Paul clearly displays HIS belief in predestination throughout all of his writings.

    Predestination, in my definition is not the idea that God plots out our lives, but the idea that HE has chosen us for a specific purpose in the completion of His will. There is nothing I can do to change His will. It is not saying that there is only one specific person out there for you to marry, but that God knew before the foundation of the earth who you would choose. It is not the idea that God MAKES us do anything, but that He knows us SOOOO much better than we know ourselves, and HE knows what we are going to do.

    I am not saying that I am not going to come into the forums anymore, I am simply saying I do not wish to be moderator of theology. I have an opinion and on just about all of the threads I will post it, but I am not going to argue... just spit out scripture.

    Blessings,

    FOMWatts<><
     
  5. endure

    endure Active Member

    656
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    eze 36 26 28

    yes i do think a person can reject the call of God.
    as we have often rejected the will of God in our lives.

    well, there is no such scripture as 2 thess 5.19
    1 thess 5.23 -24
    i dont think this is saying at all that God will cause us to serve him or to come to any means beyond our own decisions and desires.

    i do think its saying hell do his part, but we are required to do all the commands we read earlier in the chapter.
    he surely will sanctify us and do all this for us, but i think its clear that all the promises of Gods come with prerequisites. yeah he will do these things, if we will do the commandements that are listed directly in front of it. ch 5.6-22

    calvinist,
    what i believe is the majority of the confusion over predestination is simply that people think its means something it doesnt really mean.
    i agree that the bible teaches predestination, it is too clear that it does. but i do not agree that it means half of what calvinism says it does.
    i agree that i have been predestined to be saved, i am saved today becuase he predestined me to be.
    but i dont believe this means he controlled me to be saved, but that when&nbsp;i sought God, i was saved because he was willing to save me becuase this has been his desire since from before time.
    the bible also says we are called and predestined unto GOOD WORKS, but we can all see clearly that&nbsp;we are not controlled to do good works, but rather that many saved people fill their lives with great evil.
    i do not believe predestination means anything more than Gods desire for us, i dont think it refers God controlling anyman to come to that end.
    i believe ALL men, are predestined.
    i believe ALL men are called.
    becuase his predestination and calling are his will.
    and the bible is clear that his will is nothing else except that ALL BE SAVED. and that Christ died that ALL might be saved.
    the doctrine of limited atonement and selectiveness in the will of God concerning mens salvation, does not fit with the truth that God desires all to be saved, and that Christ died for ALL.

    and to everyone,
    im not here to stir up conflict or turn any brother against another.
    the bible records paul giving extremely lengthy debates, some that last hours and hours, and paul being one of the most firm in his desire to passionately defend his beliefs.
    but i dont come here for conflict or see you as enemies.
    but i think the debates are healthy and good for our lives, if we are honest people who will hearken to the truth.
    and im not secretly saying that you all need to hearken to me.
    just today cougan proved me wrong about something, and i readily rejoiced at the learning, i am glad to learn and am always ready to learn. we need debates. not to fight, but many things will go uncovered untill they are brought to light by another.

    if you cannot debate reasonably, then thats diffrent, and i know i am a passionate person, seems im always running hot.
    i have problems with that, but we do need debate.

    i dont have anger toward any of you.
    well, i take that back, i got angry once earlier at new2calvin and i shouldnt have. i just get very passionate about many things, that isnt always a good thing.
     
  6. Placid

    Placid New Member

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    If God is not in control of every single molecule, then who or what is? Chance? Fate? Human beings? Denial of God's absolute control over all of reality amounts to the assertion that, at least in some area, someone or something else other than God is ultimate. But this could never be; for of Him and through Him and to Him are all things (Rom 11:36). Of course, God being the ultimate cause of all things does not in any way negate the Biblical truths that human beings have real choices (secondary causes) and that they (not God) are responsible for those choices.

    I am thankful that most Christians who are uneasy confessing God's ultimacy over human actions are still more or less Biblical in practice. For example, they continue to thank God for bringing the food to their table - not thanking God that He made humans into gods over their own actions, and thus made it possible so that they could bring their own food to the table. Not at all; even the most confident Arminian knows that the Creator ultimately provided. Yes, the human decisions of farmers, grocery store employees, and even the person who cooked in the household were all involved. But there is an ultimate cause behind these secondary causes.

    So it is in salvation. Predestination is no doctrine to fear! It simply means that God gets the glory for your human decision to trust in Him and that you do not. After all, even human faith is ultimately the gift of God (Eph 2:8). May it be far from the minds of believers that their human choice to trust in Christ had no origin greater than themselves.
     
  7. Eze 36 26 28

    Eze 36 26 28 New Member

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    Endure:
    I definately agree with you. Upon other points, the doctrine of limited atonement is deifnately one that has really turned me away from Calvinism. Of course, Calvin, later in life has been recorded to say that the strength Christ's death on the cross is strong enough for the world, but keep in mind, Scripture does to a certain extent support the calvinist view if you read certain verses a certain way. =D God's sovereignty is embedded in scripture very strongly. Psalms 103:19 for example. "His Sovereignty rules over all" Also, other very good verses on sovereignty include Daniel 4:34-35.
    I am very sorry, I meant 1 Thess 5:19 =D My fault!
    You are right, I don't believe that predestination means that he rules over everything, but sovereignty does.&nbsp; Different names, same concept.
    If you believe that if all men are predestined, then why did Peter write 2 Peter 1:10 (and no, please don't argue over the authorship of 2nd Peter =D) Also, was Esau predestined? Scripture says that God hated Esau. Was Judas predestined, or the antichrist? It does say in 1st John that he will come from us, but not of us. I believe that Calvin's belief, when he died, was that the strength of Christ's perfect sacrifice was strong enough to save the world, but effectively, it will only save the elect. =D I think scripture definately supports that.

    Passion is not a bad thing. Remember Peter? He was the most passionate of everyone. Just make sure to have the perseverance behind your passion. =D Peter had to fall to realize that truth. I do agree with you, our culture is way too complacent about things of importance. =D

    I don't believe that God's promises come with prequisites, at least not all of them. I believe that the doctrine of salvation, is an unconditional promise. Romans 8:29 supports this. It lists no requirements, only the process of your salvation. Also, if everyone is predestined, then everyone will be glorified and share in the kingdom of Christ. 2 Peter 2:20, indirectly defeats this idea. Remember, as much as God loves us, he is a righteous judge to us first. He is able to predestine us because he created us for his pleasure, so therefore he has the authority to do so.

    I leave you with 2 questions then.
    1) Where does it ever say in the bible that we have free will? (and no, I really don't want oh because these people chose against god...I want a direct scriptural evidence saying we have the freedom to choose) =D
    2) Also, what is it that really saves you? Your faith or his election? Salvation is really not a simple matter.

    Placid:
    I realize that this is a long post, and I do agree with most of the things that you said, so I won't poke you that much. =D I do however have one question. Are only those who are saved the ones who have faith? What about 2nd Peter 2:20 again? =D It clearly says that those who aren't elect, who aren't saved also have faith. =D Also, look at my thoughts about predestination above. =D


    I am very encourgaed by the willingness of you guys to talk about this issue. This is no easy issue to talk about, and I must say, when I first came about this issue, I had many moments of long silence. It is by his grace that I am not completely confused now. =D I am also very encouraged by your earch for the truth Endure, it is truely a gift from God, don't ever stop searching! =D

    Also, btw: I am not a calvinist, nor am I a armenian. I think I am in the middle somewhere. =D
     
  8. calvinist

    calvinist Daniel in the Lion's Den

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    Perhaps I should change my name from Calvinist to Biblicist!!!
     
  9. FOMWatts<><

    FOMWatts<>< Follower of the Way

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    Calvinist,

    When did you turn 22 young man?

    Blessings,

    FOMWatts<>< ;)
     
  10. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I was involved in this thread at the beginning and I thought I'd drop back in and read the lastest posts and I must say I have not heard a more God based response in all my times at this MB.&nbsp; I welcome you, one reformed brother to another brother/sister, and I pray that you will stick around.&nbsp; We are in short supply and I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post and felt very blessed by it.&nbsp; I thank God for His grace revealed in your post.&nbsp; And I thank you for your desire to share it.

    Blessings to you.&nbsp; Feel free to PM me at any time.

    God bless,

    Don
     
  11. endure

    endure Active Member

    656
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    placid

    i do not disagree with you that all things ultimatly came from God,
    and that really all things go back to him. i simply mean all provisions.
    but i do not mean all actions that have evertaken place.

    i dont really see where you stand at, concerning predestination, becuase i agree with you that God will get all the glory, becuase in anything we do, he was the author of that action and without him, it couldnt have taken place.

    but i do not agree with predestination (well people label this certain belief as predestination, i dont think it should be called by such a simple name)
    on the terms of God electing some to go to hell.

    really, after all the scripture i can give and have given, i dont believe the common teaching of "predestination or calvinism" because i will never believe that a person is in hell becuase God never elected him to be anywhere else.
    if you point at the people in hell, and say even that is the product of the soverien will of God, then i will never agree with you, and yes that is a theology i will not come near.
    but it is not a fearing intimidation of it being true that drives me to stay away, but i simply find no place of it in scripture.
    or do i find any way to put (God being in control of ever molecule) in common everyday life.
    for some reasons i gave earlier.
    if what you say is true, then why would God regret?
    and how could he be greived?
    and how could i be outside his will by believing this lie?

    so you think the people in hell right now, are the effects of the great unchanging will of God? even while the bible claims that he died as a ransom for all? and that desires for all men to be saved?
    the fact that those are truths, make no room for predestination, becuase there are plenty of people who are not in what is clearly the will of God.

    eze

    well, you can find any doctrine within the bible if you read certain things certain ways, but we dont have the right or the place to read things certain ways, but what is line with the rest of the oustanding clearly spoken facts.
    what gets me, is that people take what is blurry and go from an assumption, and create a doctrine.
    but we need to simply stay away from much activity in blurry areas, and take our truths from piercingly clear areas.
    i think this is the the fault behind much false doctrine.

    im sorry, but you didnt quote psalm 103.19 correctly, and it really isnt saying what you say it does. but it says his kingdom is ruling over all. that simply does not ever begin to say anything about the will of God being binding on anyones actions.
    and really, i dont believe the truth of that scripture can be said of today anyway, becuase he does not rule over all presently, he owns all. but all is not under his rulership. fallen and cursed earth is under satans rulership, only in the millenium will it be restored and all things come under the rulership of God.|

    refering to dan 4.34-35
    i dont think this teaches the binding effect of Gods will on all persons actions either.
    i agree, that he does reighn, he is in dominion, and he does as he pleases and no one can stay him or speak agaisnt&nbsp;him.

    but i do not think this means that all peoples will automaticly do his will. it does say he does his will in his army.
    i agree that the actions of God can never be stopped.
    but i dont think this means that will of God can never go unfullfilled.

    2 pet 1.10
    says you have to make your election sure.
    well first of all, if you agree that this is evidence for the election of God to require our efforts also, this does not agree with the theology that those who are meant to be saved simply will be, and those who arent simply werent.

    what i think,
    its simply saying that in order for you to fullfill your election and have this finished in you, it takes your efforts also.
    i dont think this touches on the context of whether or not all are called.
    it may be true that being the elect of God is not the same as being the called of God, but rather the saved of God.
    but anyway, i dont think this verse touches on the subject&nbsp;of whether&nbsp;or not&nbsp;all are predestined and called to be saved.

    esua and the antichrist.
    well, i cant say alot about that becuase i really dont know my bible very good on those areas.
    but as far as esua goes,
    the only thing this can be reffering is Gods will for jacob to receive the birthright instead of esua, because only one could have this and he had to choose.
    i dont agree that this is proving that God had bitterness toward him before a cause, but i think the word means that he had a preference over jacob instead.
    he chose jacob over esua becuase of whatever it was he saw in him or his actions that gave him reason to be so.
    but this did not change esuas life outside of that, he still had the ability to serve God, call on God, be saved by God, accept God, prosper, and succeed in life. what the bible refers to in Gods "hating" of esau, does not mean that esau did not have the ability to call on God and be saved and serve as all men can.

    judas and the antichrist,
    i really cant prove all this at this moment, so please understand this is just my thinking.
    as far as judas, i dont believe judas was called by God to end&nbsp;in that fate. though i do believe God allowed judas to do those things in order to fullfill that purpose, but i dont believe it had to be judas, and i dont believe judas had to do those things.
    though that could be wrong, and if it is then i will recall that.

    the antichrist,
    same thing here,
    i dont believe there is anyman whom God simply desires or has purposed to be the antichrist.
    but rather God has purposed there to be anti christ, and whoever fullfills this is able to meet this calling.
    i dont believe God has pre-doomed any man to be the anti christ, and if he has, then he will simply allow this man to make himself into this, not control him into it or force sin upon him.

    there are many times, that God has purposed something to happen, so he finds a man who is working in such a way that would promote this cause, so God simply gives this man freedom to doit and allows him to make those actions, and then he simply uses this man to finish his calling, but i dont think it ever refers to God ever simply controlling the man to do anything that will bring judgment.
     
  12. Eze 36 26 28

    Eze 36 26 28 New Member

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    Very good points! =D We are all in search of spiritual truth, and this is the reason why I love this forum so much. I am able to converse my fellow brothers and see what they think about an issue. =D I am very sorry that I quoted Psalms wrong. I will go back and look at the context again. =D

    Your post has opened my mind to a few new possibilities and for that, I thank you and bless you. =D

    I don't read or assume. =D I merely try to read more confusing parts of scripture by applying simple parts of scripture to it, like for example, many people can read Hebrews and come away with the fact that they are able to lose their salvation, but reading, but keeping John and Romans at heart, I am able to conclude that the author must mean something else.

    Cutting back to the crown jewel of Romans then, Romans 8:29. Those he foreknew, he predestined and those he predestined, he justified and glorified. I believe that justified and glorified means saved. =D My point with Esau and Jacob is that I believe that God foreknew and therefore predestined Jacob and not Esau. Scripture distinctly says Esau I hated..... =D

    I definately agree that us as humans have a part in salvation. =D But once again, what is our part of salvation? I mean I believe that our part in our salvation is faith, in Christ. =D

    It does take the Millenial Kingdom for Christ to reign since the current world is governed by angels, but I am saying that God gave reign of this world to the angels so that Christ may reign and prove that He is superior in all ways, as in governing which is the reason that Satan won't be destroyed at the start of the millenial kingdom.

    I believe that God is all power and he has dominion over all. I believe that his will is fulfilled in everything we do, and we can't not fulfill his will because of the fact that he is truely sovereign. He is an all knowing god. Why did he allow adam to sin then? For his glory, in order that His glory be maximized. =D Awesome thought, ain't it? Our disappointment(and failures) are his appointment...

    I have never seen in scripture that we are given free will. The only scripture I can fnd on the topic (and I looked, so I would much appreciate it if you showed it to me =D) is that we are held responsible for our actions. I believe that God is sovereign in all things. =D

    I believe that all who God predestined, will be saved. =D Just take the example of David's son. Salvation has been the same from the start to the end. All you need is faith. =D Well, David's first son died during birth(not sure if its during birth....but soon afterwards). David said this after he died, "The child will not come back to me but I will go to him" or something to that respect. =D I don't think that the child had faith. I think that only those who are predestined will be saved.

    Here's a question for you then. If anyone who wants to be saved can be saved, then why did God chose first the nation of Israel? Salvation is the same but how about the gentiles who lived in the old covenent times?

    =D

    I really enjoy posting to this forum. It really shows that even in the computer age, the holy spirit is still able to do its work, over whatever medium. =D Thank you very much for such encouragement.

    Your brother, and in his grace,
     
  13. endure

    endure Active Member

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    well, im sorry that i left some of your original questions unanswered, but i just really dont have time for this anymore.

    i hope that im not going agaisnt my own preaching and ignoring peoples evidences, but i just really cant devote hours of my day to this like i use to.

    well,
    we simply disagree on alot of theological foundations, and those things are so deep in us it would take a long long time for either of us to really be changed unless it was a miracle.
    we all have reasons to believe what we do, i know you feel justified, and i do also.
    but anyway.
    i just cant continue this anymore. if i am on here anymore it will be rare.
    but i remember something paul told timothy, he said not to give heed to endless geneologies and disputes that only cause endless, pointless debates, becuase its faith that saves us.
    i am the first to say we need the exactly correct teaching and i dont believe there is any real reason for diffrent beliefes, but what saves us is our faith in jesus christs blood to save us and change us, sometimes thats all that matters.

    but godbless you.
    im sorry for running out in the middle of a debate, but i simply dont have the ability to do this anymore.
     
  14. FOMWatts<><

    FOMWatts<>< Follower of the Way

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    Actually, that's what I have been saying for a while now , hehehe. God bless you too!

    FOMWatts<><
     
  15. calvinist

    calvinist Daniel in the Lion's Den

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    these christian theological disscussions only make me want to study my Bible more. I love it.
     
  16. FOMWatts<><

    FOMWatts<>< Follower of the Way

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    Yet you refuse to debate on something when you know you are wrong?

    FOMWatts<><
     
  17. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

    +94
    Christian
    I am not a proclaimed Calvanist, nor do I ever think I will claim to be anything but a believer, but I do seem to believe a lot posted in this thread.

    I have presented these issues to clergy and others and have found that most people in the church cannot deal with God being sovereign.

    One man even has himself convinced that maybe God picks and chooses what He wants to see (maybe He doesnt WANT to see someone steal a car).
    I find that the more our Lord teaches me, the fewer Christians I have available for conversation.
     
  18. endure

    endure Active Member

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    ya know what i find strange?
    is that me and you believe very diffrently, and we are both in that same boat.
    the more i learn from the bible, i dont fit in much anywhere anymore.
     
  19. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    Endure:

    To support your conviction, here are some thougts. Anyone who comes to God's Word as a "little child" [no preconceived ideas, no pride, and no unbelief] and goes all the way from Genesis to Revelation, will see that God created all mankind for Himself, and prepared a plan of salvation to include each and every person since Adam to the end of time. At the end of His precious Word, God extends His loving arms to all mankind and says [in any language under Heaven]: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.&nbsp; And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.&nbsp; And WHOSOEVER WILL [anyone who chooses to come] let him take of the water of life FREELY" (Rev.22:18). This matches almost exactLY what Isaiah says in Isa.55:1-2.

    To those who would seek to limit Almighty God, the Lord says [in the same context, the entire 55th chapter of Isaiah]: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" (v.8).&nbsp; This chapter in itself is an open invitation to all sinners (all mankind)&nbsp;to repent and be converted. God also puts the responsibility on the sinner to repent and return: "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let HIM return unto the LORD: and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will ABUNDANTLY PARDON" (v.7).

    What a great, and gracious and glorious God! How can we possibly limit His offer of redemption to all? He will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim.2:4), because He is not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH [none whatsoever] but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE (2 Pet. 3:9). I trust we all will take these words as the very words of Almighty God and repent of the sin of limiting the infinitely merciful God our Saviour.
     
  20. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

    +94
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    Endure

    I dont really know what it is we believe differently on.
    I know that for that most part the only folks that believe exactly as I do are some pastors who have been pastoring for over 2 decades.

    I am finding harder to find younger christians who I can speak freely with because they either want to believe in evolution or they want their God to be much more lenient towards thier sin than what I know He would be.

    I am also very adamant about Gods word being true as written (NO hidden messeges requiring a Dick Tracy Decoder Ring).

    I know the difference between literal historical passages and prophetical passages.
    So I dont fall for things like creation days = millions of years.

    I also dont fall for people trying to "interpret" scripture in their own private manner for me.

    I take it as its written, Just the way God intended.

    So where do you and I disagree?
     
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