Predestination/"Free Will"

[FineLinen]

Elan....I have just been reading an article by J. Preston Eby covering this excellent topic.

Just What Do You Mean...Man Is A Free Moral Agent?
<P align=justify>It is a strange theory that obsesses men that the human will is greater in power than God, and that, no matter what the will of God is for His creatures, man is able finally to wreck it. It is a curious hypothesis that states that although the Holy Spirit seeks to woo all men to Christ, since God loves all mankind and wills to save all men, still, the omniscient God has boxed Himself into a corner, since the will of God is bound by the will of man, and the Omnipotent Spirit can be resisted by finite man if man so chooses. Such faulty reasoning actually brings into prominence ANOTHER OMNIPOTENCE which, because it baffles the omnipotence and love of God, is by far the greater. Man will not so God cannot! What makes this notion so tragic is that it DEIFIES MAN, elevating him to god-hood, and aligns all who embrace it with the very sin that caused the fall in the beginning! The first sin committed by man had its roots in the desire to be a FREE MORAL AGENT! Free moral agency is not the doctrine of the Bible. It is the doctrine of Romanism; and it is the doctrine of humanism. It was Erasmus, the humanist, who wrote on the freedom of man's will. It has always been the humanists that have sought to deify man and have boasted of the freedom of their sovereign will.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

The word draw is an interesting Greek Word...

Draw= Helkuo=

To draw/ drag off.

To lead.

To impel.

Impel in English means.....

To force or drive to an action.

To move by an impulse.

To urge on.

To drive or push forward.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will helkuo pas men unto Me" John 12:32

*** "....shall draw everyone to Myself." Berkley

*** "....shall draw everyone to Myself." RIEU

*** "....I will attract all (pas) men to Myself."

The interesting aspects of this word Helkuo, is our Lord speaking of drawing/ dragging/ impelling all mankind to Himself. Will our Lord drive mankind to an action? Will our Lord move mankind by an impulse, and urging on? Will our Lord drive or push mankind forward into Himself? I&nbsp;believe so!

"There are today many millions of people who hold 'right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church. Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb....The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes. 'Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions, yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this." A.W.Tozer (The Pursuit Of God)

 

[endure]

if i do not have free-will, and i am being dragged around by the will of God.
then how could i be outside of his will by believing i have free-will?

the fact that there is sin, a thing God hates and is opposite of the will of God, proves the will of God does not always reighn.

i know these are not complex teachings, but sometimes those last forever and are never agreed on.

but answer these simple questions for me, and really think about them.

how can a God whos will compells all men to do as he pleases, and no matter what, what he wants to happen happens...
be grieved?
regret?
be full of sorrow?
be angry at a person?
punish a person for being out of his will?

and the bible does state that God expereinced and did all these things.
there is no such thing as regret in&nbsp;one whos&nbsp;will is always brought to pass.
there is no such thing as being grieved in one whos will is always brought to pass.
and so on.

please tell me how it could be that Gods will is for ALL TO COME TO SALVATION AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, and THAT NONE SHOULD PERISH.
(as it is not debatable in scripture whether or not this is true.
becuase those are direct quotes from the bible)
YET AT THE SAME TIME, PEOPLE ARE IN HELL PERISHING EVERYDAY OF OUR LIVES AND HELL HAS EVEN ENLARGED ITSELF.

with knowledge of these two facts in unity with each other, there is no possible chance that man does not have free-will to be outside of the will of God.

but pertaining to your statement.
i understand the great problem that arises when we say that men can stay the almighty hand of God.
and on a very vague scale i understand that that cant be possible.
but one smaller more complex scales it is diffrent.
i understand that no man can come to heavon, overthrow God, and defeat him who holds the power of all creation is his hands and whos mouth is a furnace of fire more intense that the heat in the center of the brightest star. his power shakes the foundations of the earth and all space, and makes what is something into nothing and takes nothing and makes it something. my God is an awesome God.

yet this God has a plan, he desires to have a family that loves him without obligation, that loves him freely, because that is what true love must be, and he desires to have them work with him, beside him, at his right hand for all eternity, a people fit to be his bride.|

but when these people turn away from him they destroy his plan, not becuase they defeated him or overthrew him, but becuase his plan was for them to love him.
becuase he could have made them drones that obey him from obligation, but this was not his plan, his plan for was a peole to love him by choice, the greatest and warmest of all loves, he does not want appliances and mindless machines, he wants loving effectionate people.

and since this was his plan, it is possible that it not be brought to pass.

can we stay the almighty hand of God? by no means.
but the will of God is that he not have to be that way with us, but for us to loving obey him freely.
so, when men did not do this, his will in this area was defeated.

though his will in other areas cannot be defeated, like his will be lord of lords and king of kings, and if he wants to do something no man can stay him. but when it came to his desire for men to serve him with desire, that is very diffrent.

becuase for men to serve him by choice, he had to give them the ability to choose otherwise, and thus he did give men the ability to disobey him.

 

[FineLinen]

Hi there Endure....I want you to answer a couple of questions for me. What does the following Scriptures mean to you?

1. "It is not of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that shows mercy" Rom. 9:16

2. "Oh Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jer. 10:23

3. "By one man sin entered into the world, and death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.... For by one man's disobedience many were made sinners...." Rom. 5:

4. Do you know what a slave is? What does the Scripture mean....

"But I am a creature of the flesh (carnal) SOLD INTO SLAVERY UNDER THE CONTROL OF SIN." Rom. 7:14

5. Do you feel safe and secure knowing that our Lord's will can be thwarted, particularly by grass blowing in the wind?

My friend, our Father does not produce drones, but rather by an elaborate plan He brings to pass His cherished will by bringing mankind into union with His desires in the Son of His love, the Christ. I hope to post further to you tomorrow. Until then, may our Lord lift each of us more fully into accord with His intentions.

 

[endure]

i really do not feel that i should answer your questions, because you did not answer myne. but i will anyways.

verse #1.
this verse is simply speaking of the fact that mens efforts do not get them into heavon, only Gods grace.
but in no way is this saying that men do not have&nbsp;a will of their own.

verse#2.
this verse is in the context of him speaking of disaster and failure such as is clearly seen in 21 and 22.
and he says this from a humble spirit, he is saying that man cannot plot his own course to prosperity, man cannot chart the course of a prosperous life, but only when man seeks God for direction can he truely be led to salvation.
this is speaking of mans failure and destruction on his own, not that men cannot do as they will. they may not be able to prosper, but that doesnt mean they do not have control over their actions.

verse#3
this verse is simply saying that men are sinners, whether they want to be or not because it was bred into them.
but in no way does this mean men do not have a will of their own.
just becuase one cannot undo the sinner in himself, does not mean he does not have control over his actions.

verse#4
in romans 7 paul is speaking of his past bondadge to sin, and yes i do agree that this verse is saying that sin did have control over him and at times the sin inside him would make him do things he did not want to do. in this passage sin is personified and is pictured as a person who controls paul by force.
there have been many times when people have been forced to do what they did not want to do. but that did not change that outside of that situation they could do as they pleased, they had free-will, but something stronger than them would not allow them to work in it, but it does not mean the person does not have the ability in themself to do as it pleases.

question#5
i do feel very secure, God is omnipotent and will accomplish what must be accomplished, the devil will not defeat him, becuase no matter how strong the devil gets or how many followers he gets, he will never be able to stay the almighty hand of God.

the only thing that may not be accomplished is&nbsp;Gods desire for men to walk beside him freely, but the fact that men may not do this and this part of his plan may not be accomplished in no way puts me in anydanger or mean that God cannot&nbsp;do what he must do.
the only part of Gods will that can be thwarted by man, is Gods will for man to be saved.
but this does not threaten the security of the universe or creation or life or my life, when i am walking in his will.

you say he does not make drones, well no matter what you call us or how good you make us look, if we do not have wills of our own we are no more than&nbsp;breathless puppets at the strings of God.
and the men who are in hell, are their becuase God put them there, becuase they had no free-will and could not avoid it, they never deserved the pain they endure forever.

now, i have answered your questions, answer myne.

 

[sn00zles]

I do not know how some derive this teaching - that God created some just to be thrown into hell.&nbsp;

The very fact that we are in a fallen state still, even though we have already accepted Christ, is so that we can go on CHOOSING Him, in our words, in our actions, every day.&nbsp; God delights in our relationship with Him, when we consciously choose Him over the world.&nbsp;

God died so that we, his enemies, might be saved.&nbsp; God himself calls for us to love our enemies.&nbsp; You cannot say that God truly loves His enemies, and yet has predestinated them to hell - a state of eternal torment.

God calls for us to not grieve his Spirit, ie. not to sin.&nbsp; Yet we continue to do it.&nbsp; So, God grieves.&nbsp; Do you not think that God grieves when another one of his creations, made in his own image, fails to be reconciled with Him?&nbsp; How can you hold a view that God created some, just so that they would reject him?&nbsp;

&nbsp;

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by sn00zles
I do not know how some derive this teaching - that God created some just to be thrown into hell.&nbsp;

The very fact that we are in a fallen state still, even though we have already accepted Christ, is so that we can go on CHOOSING Him, in our words, in our actions, every day.&nbsp; God delights in our relationship with Him, when we consciously choose Him over the world.&nbsp;

God died so that we, his enemies, might be saved.&nbsp; God himself calls for us to love our enemies.&nbsp; You cannot say that God truly loves His enemies, and yet has predestinated them to hell - a state of eternal torment.

God calls for us to not grieve his Spirit, ie. not to sin.&nbsp; Yet we continue to do it.&nbsp; So, God grieves.&nbsp; Do you not think that God grieves when another one of his creations, made in his own image, fails to be reconciled with Him?&nbsp; How can you hold a view that God created some, just so that they would reject him?&nbsp;

&nbsp;

I come to this conclusion through reading biblical truth. This thread is full of scripture and text that backs up this position. It is true that God has commanded us to love our enemies. He has also commanded us not to kill, but does He kill? He has also commanded us not to be jealous, but does He not tell us that He is a jealous God? He is not bound by the law He requires us to follow. He created us. What He does with us is His to decide and cannot be found unrighteous. Look over this entire thread. Look up the scripture given and consider it IN CONTEXT. Your opinion is yours to hold, but that's all it is...opinion. Look for the truth, read it, study it, pray about it before you defend a position that is simply not laid out in scripture.

 

[Subtilis]

Look up the scripture given and consider it IN CONTEXT. Your opinion is yours to hold, but that's all it is...opinion.

Well, to be fair, isn't that all you have as well, i.e., an opinion on what Scripture says?

 

[john14_20]

Well said Subtilis, well said. This is a point I have been trying to make on another website - but all I get is messages saying that I am the one that is putting forwrad an interpretation, and they are speaking truth. AMAZING!!!

 

[settergren]

Originally posted by new2calvin
Predestination:
I believe that there is predestination both to heaven and to hell. God chooses some for heaven and some for hell...thats just how it is...even the Apostle Paul preached predestination (Eph 1:4-5,11; Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13-14; 2Tim 1:9). And Paul was an Apostle of Jesus woudl God really alow something like that in th eBible if it were not true.

Free Will:
We do have "free will" but its not total free will like some people woul like to believe. Some say we hve the free will to chose whether we are saved or not and that is simply not true. We have the ability to make conscious choices but even those are sovreignly controlled by God. Even the ability to repent and exercise faith in Christ must be granted by God(Acts 5:31; 11:18; 16:14; 18:27; Phil 1:29) since, left to ourselves, we will only "recieve the grace of God in vain"(1 Cor 15:2; 2 Cor 6:2). THus, what God demands (namely, repentence and faith), he also supplies.

God be praised

&nbsp;

Well put. I agree with you =).

 

[SoccerAaron]

Originally posted by new2calvin
what do you all believe about predestination?? Does the Bible teach it? What about "free will"??? Is there such a thing as "Free Will"?

Yes.
In Romans 8, John 6, Eph 1, and other places. We don't have a complete free-will.

 

[endure]

gabriel
i just read what you said in your last statment and all i can say

oh please....i gave a reply to everyscripture that was named to me! i gave an understanding to every scripture that was given to me and i will yet again, yet none of you reply to the scriptures i give you in defense of my belief. why is this if you hold the truth?

i already explained what the bible truely taught about predestination, and how it isnt that some are chosen for heavon and some are not. and yet you never, nor any of you actually give any kind of scripture to refute my teachings!
why is it that you sit in silence to my defense, and then still profess that you are in the truth!?
if you are truely in the truth, then please, give an&nbsp;answer to all who ask a reason as the bible commands you to, becuase im asking&nbsp;of you.
do not dare stand and profess that you are in the truth, but yet stand silent when you are confronted with a diffrent belief.

if you were not a christian then i would not care, but you claim the name of Jesus christ, and you are his representation in the earth, and you better make sure what your teaching is the truth, becuase if your not youll cause the heathen to blaspheme the name of God, and cause us who are in the truth to have to try and fix your mistakes.

lets look at something else the bible says on predestination.
ephesians 2.10
for we are his workmanship, created in christ jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

this means that just like God predestined us to get saved, he also predestined you to good works! take a look at your life now, are you in sin? do you still sin? the bible clearly says that you shouldnt be, becuase he predestinated you not to!
so if Gods predestination is outside the will of man and controls man, then wed have no sin in our lives. wed all be doing good works, all christians everywhere would be doing good works and not sinning, but we know this isnt true becuase we can see the sin openfacedly, we know we are not all doing good works. yet the bible says hes predestined us to them.
this proves that Gods predestination is not God controlling the outcome of man, it is simply Gods choice and desire for the end result of man, but it is not final, we do not have to obey and not all do.

please answer that, dont ignore it and claim your just in the truth.

new2calvin
you say god chooses some for heavon, and some for hell.

im sorry but im gonna be bold here because just made me angry with your ignorance about the bible.
that is a bald faced filthy lie.
1 tim 2.4, 6,
(god)
v4 who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
v6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

john 1.9,12
v9 that was the true light, which lighteth everyman that cometh unto the world.
v12 but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

the only truth on this issue is that Jesus christ was the light unto men, and if any man receive this light they are given power to become the sons of God and be saved. and there is no diffrence between men, THE LIGHT OF JESUS CHRIST SHINES DOWN UPON EVERY MAN THAT EVER ENTERED THIS EARTH! all one must do is receive it.
and it is clear that the ability to respond to the light of God is given to everyman, becuase it is the will of God for all men to answer to it, and he died as a ransom for everysingle human being so they could be saved, there is no man that God doesnt desire to be saved, and no man he didnt die and pay the ransom for.

it is foolishness to think that God wills for a man to be saved, died for that man to be saved, yet for some reason doesnt give him the ability to ask for it. oh what a foolish God you serve.

 

[Gabriel]

First of all, if you truly read my last statement you will see that it wasn't even addressed to you.

Second, some of what you wrote is incoherent. Please calm down and try again.

I didn't reply to your interpretations because I find them to be false. I have not come to these conclusions on my own. I have been a christian longer than you have been alive and a very studious one I have been. What basis do you have for your belief? What studies have you taken part in that lead you to these conclusions?

Furthermore you seem only to want to argue. I have no desire for that. Believe what God will have you believe. Let us agree that it is grace that saves any of us. Grace that we don't deserve and never could earn. A gift. Something to be thankful for, not angry about.

God bless.

 

[endure]

gabriel

i never thought your reply was to me.
i was still replying to you, and how you did react to my replies, whether that reaction was speaking or not.

i do not mean to be rude,
but your claims of how long you have been a christian, and your claims of being greatly involved in study really dont mean anything to me, as they shouldnt.

what basis do i have for my belief....what?
the scripture that i gave is the basis for my belief, what basis do i have to say they mean what i say they mean?
pretty much the lack of anything else that makes sense in the common flow of scripture, and the fact that if you read them plainly, slowly,&nbsp;and literally they cant mean much else. not unless God meant what he didnt say, and didnt say what he really meant.
but i dont believe that ever happened.
i study the word for hours all the time, my fave thing to do is probly&nbsp;pray and study, i buy books on these subjects just to study them more, i look for reasons why i might be wrong, i write entire documents on many reasons why something must or cant be true, i often spend hours in studying this stuff.
i dont say to impress you or move you, but to simply reply to your question.
did you think i quoted all those scriptures without ever searching for them and studying?

no i do not only want to argue, but i am zealous about many things, and im not afraid to put my belief under the light and have anyone speak agaisnt it and give my every reason for why i believe it.
this is a place to discuss the truth is it not?

believe what God will have me believe?
do you honestly believe that God would have me believe this, if you were in the truth?
it certainly wouldnt be his will.

i just dont see why your so stuck on your belief, and atleast let yourself appear to have so little for prove it.
why do you come to a discussion room, and post your thoughts, but not actually discuss it?
no i will not simply agree on small things and let somethings remain, when i veiw them as enemies.
the bible never says to draw a line and say "you stay there, and ill stay here"
i do know there are many issues on which the bible is not clear about, and those are petty matters, but whether or not a man is to be saved? that is the most important of all. and it is very clear.
and im&nbsp;sorry, the only way to make real peace in some issues, is to destroy all opposition.
not to give the enemy a little and just hope hes happy.

 

[calvinist]

Zeal without knowledge?

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

All right! Everytime I get on, I meet another scholar of Reformed doctrine.

Hey Calvinist! Welcome to CF!

 

[endure]

calvinist,
if i am without knowledge then please instruct me,
or go back and read the posts i have made.

i dont say this proudly, but it is rather ironic that i make posts no one ever attempts to refute, and yet im the one people call ignorant.
and i have never to my remembrance ignored an evidence raised agaisnt me, i never let it go unanswered, but myne are continually.
yet i am the one who is called ignorant.

if i am so ignorant, then you should have no problem proving everying i say wrong, since i am such an ignorant person with so little understanding, compared to you who does understand the truth of the word of God.

 

[Eze 36 26 28]

I really like your viewpoint. Well then, I have a question for you to make this a little more practical. Can you reject God's initial call, even if you are elect? Do you have to have faith to be saved? How about the Old Testament? Can you ever turn down the spirit? Say for example, inappropriate contentography. (I was just reading this in the teens posts.) inappropriate content is a common problem, even for christians. The holy spirit, who is there to sanctify us, if we can't reject it, then how come we have problems like that? If you want scriptural backing on being able to reject the spirit, 2 Thes 5:19. =D

To me, I don't think the calvin/armenian debate is based solely on whether you are able to choose your salvation and etc. I think that it is based on the last point of each argument. For calvinism, perseverence of the saints and for armenian, falling from grace. Once I am a believer, will the holy spirit cause us to persevere? What is our responsibility in salvation? Do we have a responsibility in salvation?

Playing devils advocate,
if you say yes:
How do you argue against 1st Thes. 5:23, how about Romans 8:29?

if you say no:
Then why does the Hebrews author tell us to persevere in Hebrews 10? How about 1st Cor 9:24, why does he ask us to run in such a way that we may win?

To support the rest of my post,
can we reject god's initial call?
Exodus 3:11, moses rejects god's first call. The first part of Mark 2, healing of the paralytic. Jesus was teaching already, and yet the people still rejected him.

do we require faith to be saved...
I can think of a example in OT that are saved w/o faith.

If you want more scripture to back up my questioning, please ask for it, I'm sure I can find a few more! Please ponder on whether God will secure your salvation or are you responsible to a certain degree... =D

In his grace,

 

[calvinist]

Dear ALL,

Paul writes in Romans 8:32-33, "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for US ALL, how shall He not with HIm also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against GOD'S ELECT? It is God who justifies." (NKJV). Paul speaks to the church at Rome as a christian, and using the term "us" leads me to believe that he is speaking of the elect. Paul clarifies this in verse 32, when he uses the phrase God's elect. Paul is by far my one of favorite writers. He portrays what we call today calvinism, in such a beautiful language. Just read Romans! Just read Ephesians! Through these books we see Paul providing biblical proof that predestination exists! The verse above is just a small tidbit of the case for calvinism. But let my stop and explain. These are MY beliefs. I do not state these to argue with anyone or try to force them upon anyone. But Gabriel, in response to your rather blunt posts, I say this. Your posts do not encourage healthy christian debate, at least to me they seem to encourage angry arguments. Please do not address your christian brothers and sisters as "the enemy". Even though I disagree with your theology and you disagree with mine, does not change the status of our christian brotherhood. We (whether in presdestination or with our own free will) are members of the elect, LET'S LIVE LIKE IT. This is not a charge to Gabriel alone. It is to me, and everyone else on CF. Let us continue in healthy christian debate, but let us demolish any particle of angry pointless argument. Much Love to all the Elect,
Delighting in God's Unconditional Election,
Calvinist><>

 

[Gabriel]

But Gabriel, in response to your rather blunt posts, I say this. Your posts do not encourage healthy christian debate, at least to me they seem to encourage angry arguments. Please do not address your christian brothers and sisters as "the enemy". Even though I disagree with your theology and you disagree with mine, does not change the status of our christian brotherhood. We (whether in presdestination or with our own free will) are members of the elect, LET'S LIVE LIKE IT

I will concede that I come across harsh. It is something that I am working and praying on. However, I have not called those that disagree with me my "enemy". If you think I have please quote the post so I may clarify. Additionally, if you are a calvinist, we do not disagree on theology. Perhaps I posted something that was unclear. Again, I would ask that you quote it for me so I may clear that up as well.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Dear All,

As I sit here and read these posts I pray,

"God thank you for making me know that I am ignorant, and thank You for making me know that all theology of man is ignorance in itself, for WHOM can figure out Your mind, and Your ways? I can't. I won't attempt to try to make MY theology be visible as fact to mankind, because I know that there will always be someone to refute it. I thank you for this forum where I may peacefully see your prophecy become fulfilled as Christian brothers turn against one another in futility and silly arguments."

I want you guys to know that I love you, plain and simple no strings attached. I want to propose an idea to you all...what if when we all go to heaven we plan on meeting at the Feet of God and one of us can ask Him this question, and I propose that we phrase it this way..."Hey God, how's it goin? We have this problem that we had on earth ohhh about 67,093,860,983,760,987 years ago and we need you to tell us who was right...Okay, here it is. Did you pick us out as individuals and call us specifically by name, or did you put us down there on the earth and tell us that Jesus was the ONLY way here and then in the end take us all anyway regardless if we accepted your Son or not?" Is it a deal, becasue I don't see this debate going many places, and might I ask what a non-Christian reading this would think? Why would they want to join a bunch of bickering brothers and sisters? They can do that in any club. I know the entire purpose of these forums are to discuss our beliefs, but I am wondering, as my TRUE life friend Calvinist has brought up to me before, if these forums are EXACTLY what Christ wants us to avoid when HE says avoid foolish arguments. These theological doctrines and ideas have NOTHING to do with salvation, therefore let us leave them behind and JOIN TOGETHER in sharing our beliefs in CHRIST JESUS with the UNSAVED people in these forums.

I am resigning as moderator of General Theology and applying for the Open Debate and Discussion where I can interact with the lsot and possibly shed some light on a corner of darkness, Won't YOU join me?

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><