Predestination/"Free Will"

[Ragman]

Do you believe that as God, Jesus Christ holds all things together in Himself?

 

[rnmomof7]

Yesterday at 06:26 PM Ragman said this in Post #101

Do you believe that as God, Jesus Christ holds all things together in Himself?

I asked first


He holds all creation, but to be honest i do not see it's revelence.

Now your turn


Now do you believe that He satsified Gods wrath completely?

 

[Ragman]

I'd be happy to respond. But I want to make sure I'm responding to the correct question. If in your question you are asserting that God's wrath is directed personally at mankind and that Jesus came to bear God's wrath which was meant for man in order to enable God to forgive man, then the answer is no.

If in your question you are asserting that God's wrath is directed towards the sin that is hindering mankind from God's pupose in creation, then the answer is yes.

If you are asserting something else then what I have mentioned above, you will need to explain your meaning.

Now as for the relevance of all things being created through the Son and being held together in Him. We are told in 2 Cor. 5:14 that since One man died for all, therefore all died. That is the death of One affects all, every person died in Him. The One and the many. Also see Rom. 5.

Often western evangelicalism often views the incarnation and the cross as a legal transaction, because they see justice and it's satisfaction as the main point. However, the early fathers saw the connection between the Son of God and mankind for they viewed salvaton primarily as the joining together of God and man in the person of Jesus Christ. That is, the relationship that the Son of God enjoys with His Father in the Holy Spirit is shared with us by virtue of the incarnation; thus our adoption.

 

Do you believe that Jesus Christ holds all mankind together in Himself?

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 01:58 PM Ragman said this in Post #103

I'd be happy to respond. But I want to make sure I'm responding to the correct question. If in your question you are asserting that God's wrath is directed personally at mankind and that Jesus came to bear God's wrath which was meant for man in order to enable God to forgive man, then the answer is no.

If in your question you are asserting that God's wrath is directed towards the sin that is hindering mankind from God's pupose in creation, then the answer is yes.

If you are asserting something else then what I have mentioned above, you will need to explain your meaning.

Now as for the relevance of all things being created through the Son and being held together in Him. We are told in 2 Cor. 5:14 that since One man died for all, therefore all died. That is the death of One affects all, every person died in Him. The One and the many. Also see Rom. 5.

Often western evangelicalism often views the incarnation and the cross as a legal transaction, because they see justice and it's satisfaction as the main point. However, the early fathers saw the connection between the Son of God and mankind for they viewed salvaton primarily as the joining together of God and man in the person of Jesus Christ. That is, the relationship that the Son of God enjoys with His Father in the Holy Spirit is shared with us by virtue of the incarnation; thus our adoption.

 

Do you believe that Jesus Christ holds all mankind together in Himself?

I think it is seen that way because that is the way it is presented in the bible. Gods wrath was aimed at man because the sinner is a man.It is impossible to seperate the two. Our sin demands a response from God..that response from our Holy God is wrath at man as he is the one that sins..sin is not a disembodied object..it is an action of man .

Jesus came to take the wrath of God for sin in our place.

__
_ 1Jo 4:10__ Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins


In Greek

hilasmos {hil-as-mos'}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 3:301,362 a root word
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation


In Hebrew
TWOT
1) an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation
1) to slaughter, kill, sacrifice, slaughter for sacrifice
In Hebrew
a) (Qal)

1) to slaughter for sacrifice

2) to slaughter for eating

3) to slaughter in divine judgment

b) (Piel) to sacrifice, offer sacrifice

He bore the wrath we deserve, He was our wrath bearer..

Can a Holy God unite with sinful man?


As to the quote 2 Cor. 5:14 that since One man died for all, therefore all died. That is the death of One affects all, every person died in Him. The One and the many.

The persons for whom Christ died are all; not every individual of mankind, but all his people, all his sheep, all the members of his church, or all the sons he, as the great Captain of salvation, brings to glory. Wherefore this text does not make for the doctrine of general redemption; for it should be observed, that it does not say that Christ died for "all men," but for "all"; and so, agreeably to the Scriptures, may be understood of all the persons mentioned.Moreover, in the latter part of the text it is said, that those for whom Christ died, for them he rose again;

The sense of the passage is not, that Christ died for all that were dead, but that all were dead for whom he died; which is true of them, whether in the former, or in the latter sense: the article oi, is anaphorical or relative, as Beza and Piscator observe; and the meaning is, that if Christ died for all, then all "those" were dead for whom he died.
Gill

If you really believe that all men died in Christ then they must all be saved.(.universalism)

 

[CCWoody]

Hi, RnMomof7, sister. I think that Ragman is making some kind of statement about the nature of the Atonement. It might be that he is asserting that Christ did not actually secure the salvation of a single person with His death, but merely made salvation a possibility for all men.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 12:58 PM Ragman said this in Post #103

If in your question you are asserting that God's wrath is directed towards the sin that is hindering mankind from God's pupose in creation, then the answer is yes.

The Lord has created the wicked for the day of Destruction.

Today at 12:58 PM Ragman said this in Post #103

Now as for the relevance of all things being created through the Son and being held together in Him. We are told in 2 Cor. 5:14 that since One man died for all, therefore all died. That is the death of One affects all, every person died in Him. The One and the many. Also see Rom. 5.

No, every man did not die in Christ. Every man died in Adam. Were every man to have died in Christ, then every man would have been baptized into Christ's death and then every man would be in His likness at the Resurrection. This is absolutely false for it would be the heresy of Universalism.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Ragman]

Let's see, where do we start???

To be sure the theme of propitiation is present in the Bible, but I do not agree in the way you have presented it. For example, the scripture that you sight states that the propitiation was for the "sins" of people:

"...propitiation for our sins..."

God's wrath is directed at our sin not the person. You have concluded that God is angry at mankind and Jesus therefore comes to bear God's anger against men. When the scripture you sight tells us that Jesus came to be the propitiation for sins.

To state that Jesus did not die for all men and that all mankind did not die in Him is a remark against His divinity. For He is the One in whom all men (all humanity) is held together. If all mankind is not directly affected by His life, death, resurrection and ascension then one is stating that Christ is not the One in whom all mankind is held together. Thus the significance of His divinity. But let's take it a step further for not only does the writer of 2 Cor state that all died in Christ. He goes all to say in vs. 19 that:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world (cosmos) unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Not only has God reconciled all men, but the entire cosmos (universe).

The writer of Colossians states:

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

How can it be seen differently....."all things....whether they be things in earth or things in heaven..."

Now, CC Woody, I am indeed saying something about the atonement for the atonement and the person of Christ are inseperably linked. I am saying that Christ has reconciled the entire world to the Father. Although I am not a universalist, if I had to chose a heresy I would not pick the heresy of limited atonement over the heresy of universalism.

 

[Ragman]

Romans 5 states:

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here we see the correlation between the all men who receive judgment and the all men who receive justification of life. We can't change the rules in the middle of the verse. And again the comparison between the "many" who were made sinners and the "many" who shall be made righteous.

We easily accept that all men "fell" in Adam but have such a hard time accepting that all men have been reconciled in Christ. How is it that a mere man, Adam can affect all humanity but Christ only a portion. Who is bigger, stronger, more far reaching? Christ of course. We tend to believe more in Adam than in Christ.

Let us go further.... Not only does Christ rememdy what has occurred in Adam, He does "much more". For the goal of the incarnation is not only the healing of sinfulness, but the raising up of mankind from creation to participants in the divine life. We have been seated in heavenly places, blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies and made daughters and sons of God. We are "joint-heirs" in the sonship of Christ. Adam is a small player in mankind's history in comparison to Jesus Christ. Let's not attempt to turn it around and make Adam the main player.

 

[FineLinen]

"No, every man did not die in Christ." The quote of the day....

2 Cor. 5:14

"For the love of Christ overmasters us/ the very spring of our actions is the love of Christ....."

Convinced that as One has died for all, then all have died ." James Moffatt

"For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" (AKJV)

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;" (ASV)

"Because we are of the opinion that if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death." BAS

"For it is the love of Christ which is moving us; because we are of the opinion that if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death;" (BBE)

"For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died." (Common)

"For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died;" (Darby)

"And this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of all, then all thereby became dead men." Monsig. Knox

" For the love of Messiah constrains us; because we judge thus, that one died for all, therefore all died." (HNV)

"The love of Christ controls us, for we are convinced of this: that one person died for all people; therefore, all people have died. " (ISV)

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" (KJV)

"For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged thus-- that if one has died, certainly all have died;" (LO)

"For the love of Christ overmasters me; because I thus judge that if One has died for all, then all have died;" (Montgomery)

"For the love of the Messiah constraineth us to reason thus: One died for all; therefore are all dead." (Murdock)

"For the love of the Messiah constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" (RNKJV)

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" (R. Webster)

"For, the love of the Christ, constraineth us;—Having judged this,- That one in behalf of all died, Hence they all died. And in behalf of all died he...." (Rotherham)

"For the love of Christ constrains us; because we judge thus, that one died for all, therefore all died." (WEB)

"For the love of Christ overmasters us, the conclusion at which we have arrived being this--that One having died for all, His death was their death," (Richard Weymouth)

"For the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,"(YLT)

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 06:08 PM Ragman said this in Post #107

Let's see, where do we start???

To be sure the theme of propitiation is present in the Bible, but I do not agree in the way you have presented it. For example, the scripture that you sight states that the propitiation was for the "sins" of people:

"...propitiation for our sins..."

God's wrath is directed at our sin not the person. You have concluded that God is angry at mankind and Jesus therefore comes to bear God's anger against men. When the scripture you sight tells us that Jesus came to be the propitiation for sins.

Ask the people of Sodom or the people in the flood..Sin is not an independant thing..we are not sinners because we sin..we sin because we are sinners..

_
_ Rom 1:18__ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
__
_ Rom 1:19__ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
__
_ Rom 1:20__ For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
__
_ Rom 1:21__ Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
__
_ Rom 1:22__ Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
__
_ Rom 1:23__ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
__
_ Rom 1:24__ Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
__
_ Rom 1:25__ Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
__
_ Rom 1:26__ For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
__
_ Rom 1:27__ And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
__
_ Rom 1:28__ And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
__
_ Rom 1:29__ Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
__
_ Rom 1:30__ Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
__
_ Rom 1:31__ Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
__
_ Rom 1:32__ Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom 2:1__ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

_ Rom 2:3__ And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Mat 20:28__ Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jhn 10:11__ I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Jhn 15:13__ Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Rom 5:6__ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[Ragman]

Ask the people of Sodom and the flood.....

Embedded in that thought is the idea that physical death and eternal punishment are synonymous. They are not.

As for what came first the sin or the sinner, what is the difference. The problem here is that to assert that all have not been reconciled in the Son is a denial of the deity of Jesus Christ. One can pay lip service all day long to the fact that they believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, but when they deny the reality that this truth represents, they deny the truth of it.

It is by virtue of Christ's divinity that He was able to bring God and man together in Himself, thus Emanuel-God with us. The Bible makes no distinction between Christ being the creator of all men vs. the creator of the exclusive elect. In addition the Bible makes special effort to communicate that the Son of God became Man for the entire cosmos. The entire cosmos. There is no other God than this. There is no other Christ than this....the friend of sinners...

 

[rnmomof7]

Yesterday at 09:16 PM Ragman said this in Post #111

Ask the people of Sodom and the flood.....

Embedded in that thought is the idea that physical death and eternal punishment are synonymous. They are not.

As for what came first the sin or the sinner, what is the difference. The problem here is that to assert that all have not been reconciled in the Son is a denial of the deity of Jesus Christ. One can pay lip service all day long to the fact that they believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, but when they deny the reality that this truth represents, they deny the truth of it.

It is by virtue of Christ's divinity that He was able to bring God and man together in Himself, thus Emanuel-God with us. The Bible makes no distinction between Christ being the creator of all men vs. the creator of the exclusive elect. In addition the Bible makes special effort to communicate that the Son of God became Man for the entire cosmos. The entire cosmos. There is no other God than this. There is no other Christ than this....the friend of sinners...

Enbedded in that thought is you can not seperate the sin from the sinner( as you want to do).Sin does not exist as a seperate enity.. Did Christ die for MY sins..YES..and as a result the sinner is saved..

I do not believe ALL are reconciled to Christ by the cross...only the many that God has foreordained to be His adopted Children IN Christ.

Jesus was God with us..and remains God with us for the saved .

One of the definations for Kosmos is
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19


The Holy Spirit chose Greek as the language of the NT becuase it is a precise language..

The Jews understood the meaning..they were no longer the "elect" of God..Now the gentiles share that title with those that were the elect of Israel. They were no longer Gods exclusive people..

Rom 2:28__ For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


Rom 9:6__ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Gal 6:16__ And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

That was not good news to the Jews..

 

[FineLinen]

I do not believe ALL are reconciled to Christ by the cross...only the many that God has foreordained to be His adopted Children IN Christ.

Jesus was God with us..and remains God with us for the saved .

One of the definations for Kosmos is
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Joy To The World The Lord Is Come

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/o/joyworld.htm

1 John 2:2

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: AND not for our sins only, BUT also for the sins of the whole world."

"He is the "Propitiation"

Propitiation= Hilasmos=

An appeasing/ propitiating.

The means of appeasing, a propitiation.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2434&version=

For "Our"

Our= Hemon=

Our/ We/ Us

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2257&version=

"Sins"= Hamartia=

To be without a share in.

To miss the mark.

To err. To be mistaken.

To miss or wander from the path of uprightness.

To do or go wrong.

To wander from the law of God/ violate God's law.

Violation of the divine law in thought/ act.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=266&version=

"And"=

But/ Moreover.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1161&version=

Not for our sins "Only"=

Only/ Alone.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3440&version=

"But"= Allah

Forms a transition to the cardinal matter.

Nevertheless/ notwithstanding .

Nay/ rather/ yea/ moreover.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=235&version=

"Also"= Kai=

Also/ even/ indeed.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=

For the sins of the "Whole"=

All/ whole/ completely.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3650&version=

"World"= Cosmos=

The world/ The universe/ the inhabitants of the earth.

Men/ the human family.

The ungodly multitude.

The whole mass of men alienated from God.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=

"And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the kosmos when the time is ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation  to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." Eph. 1: 

 G. Campbell Morgan (The Cross & The Ages To Come)

http://home.att.net/~spiritword/morgan/morgan_1.htm 

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:37 PM FineLinen said this in Post #113



Joy To The World The Lord Is Come

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/o/joyworld.htm

1 John 2:2

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: AND not for our sins only, BUT also for the sins of the whole world."

"He is the "Propitiation"

Propitiation= Hilasmos=

An appeasing/ propitiating.

The means of appeasing, a propitiation.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2434&version=

For "Our"

Our= Hemon=

Our/ We/ Us

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2257&version=

"Sins"= Hamartia=

To be without a share in.

To miss the mark.

To err. To be mistaken.

To miss or wander from the path of uprightness.

To do or go wrong.

To wander from the law of God/ violate God's law.

Violation of the divine law in thought/ act.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=266&version=

"And"=

But/ Moreover.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1161&version=

Not for our sins "Only"=

Only/ Alone.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3440&version=

"But"= Allah

Forms a transition to the cardinal matter.

Nevertheless/ notwithstanding .

Nay/ rather/ yea/ moreover.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=235&version=

"Also"= Kai=

Also/ even/ indeed.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=

For the sins of the "Whole"=

All/ whole/ completely.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3650&version=

"World"= Cosmos=

The world/ The universe/ the inhabitants of the earth.

Men/ the human family.

The ungodly multitude.

The whole mass of men alienated from God.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=

"And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the kosmos when the time is ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation  to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." Eph. 1: 

 G. Campbell Morgan (The Cross & The Ages To Come)

http://home.att.net/~spiritword/morgan/morgan_1.htm 

To the Jews the word "world" meant all non Jews..This was a message that the God of the Jews was not the God of the "world ..(read gentiles)..yet the atonment was limited to those that accept Christ.

Kosmos

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Or are you a Univeralist?

 

[Ragman]

Today at 11:14 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #112


Enbedded in that thought is you can not seperate the sin from the sinner( as you want to do).Sin does not exist as a seperate enity.. Did Christ die for MY sins..YES..and as a result the sinner is saved..

I do not believe ALL are reconciled to Christ by the cross...only the many that God has foreordained to be His adopted Children IN Christ.

Jesus was God with us..and remains God with us for the saved .

One of the definations for Kosmos is
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19


The Holy Spirit chose Greek as the language of the NT becuase it is a precise language..

The Jews understood the meaning..they were no longer the "elect" of God..Now the gentiles share that title with those that were the elect of Israel. They were no longer Gods exclusive people..

Rom 2:28__ For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


Rom 9:6__ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Gal 6:16__ And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

That was not good news to the Jews..

rnmomof7:

I agree that because of the person and work of Christ and it's affect upon sin that the sinner is saved.  As for the union you employ between sin and the person, you'll have to tease that one out a little bit. 

As for you not believing that Christ has reconciled the entire world (meaning all mankind) to the Father, that is your choice.   We could swap proof texts back & forth until the cows come home (but only if they were elect to come home.....) but you appear to very committed to the position that God creates the greater portion of humanity to be ****** forever without hope.  Or at least refuses to help those who are to be ******.  If you are comfortable declaring that as "Good News" go ahead.   But I encourage you and to all who believe it.  If you believe this, preach it from your pulpits.  Don't hide this doctrine in the pastor's study.  If you believe this to be good news and to glorify God, then preach it and see if it is the power of God unto salvation.  See if this news liberates women and men from bondage to love and enjoy God forever.


 

 

[rnmomof7]

31st March 2003 at 08:15 PM Ragman said this in Post #115


As for you not believing that Christ has reconciled the entire world (meaning all mankind) to the Father, that is your choice.   We could swap proof texts back & forth until the cows come home (but only if they were elect to come home.....) but you appear to very committed to the position that God creates the greater portion of humanity to be ****** forever without hope.  Or at least refuses to help those who are to be ******.  If you are comfortable declaring that as "Good News" go ahead.   But I encourage you and to all who believe it.  If you believe this, preach it from your pulpits.  Don't hide this doctrine in the pastor's study.  If you believe this to be good news and to glorify God, then preach it and see if it is the power of God unto salvation.  See if this news liberates women and men from bondage to love and enjoy God forever.


 

Could I ask you how you explain the fact that YOU heard the gospel and responded , when so many do not? How are you different than they are ? Are you smarter or holier? What makes one man walk away while another is moved to believe?

One more question on unlimited atonement. If it was indeed gos plkan and desire that all men hear and respond to the gospel how is it that so many have lived and continue to live outside the hearing of the gospel? Why did God allow that?

 

[CCWoody]

31st March 2003 at 07:15 PM Ragman said this in Post #115

As for you not believing that Christ has reconciled the entire world (meaning all mankind) to the Father, that is your choice.   We could swap proof texts back & forth until the cows come home (but only if they were elect to come home.....) but you appear to very committed to the position that God creates the greater portion of humanity to be damned forever without hope.  Or at least refuses to help those who are to be damned.  If you are comfortable declaring that as "Good News" go ahead.   But I encourage you and to all who believe it.  If you believe this, preach it from your pulpits.  Don't hide this doctrine in the pastor's study.  If you believe this to be good news and to glorify God, then preach it and see if it is the power of God unto salvation.  See if this news liberates women and men from bondage to love and enjoy God forever. 

Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

You can continue to insist that Jesus Christ actually intended and accomplished a complete reconciliation of every single man, woman, and child to Himself to your own harm.  Scriptures clearly contradict this teaching and belief of yours.

You should also know that the Lord has created all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of Doom.

And you may continue to claim that we do not help those who will ultimately perish forever.  Let this slander stain your own cheek if you utter it again.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S.  If you want to come play nice, I have a new thread called Rockin' Doctrin: The Comforts of Calvinism.

 

[FineLinen]

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"Para Deus permitiu-nos saber o segredo dSeu plano, e é isto: Ele propósitos nSeu soberano vão ir que toda história humana será consummated em Cristo, isso tudo que existe em céu ou terra achará seua perfeição e realização Nele." Eph. 1:9-10

"Prayer does not mean that I am to bring God down to my thoughts and purposes and bend His government according to my foolish and sometimes sinful notions.

Prayer means that I am raised up into feeling, into union and design with Him; that I am to enter into His counsel and carry out His purposes fully." Dwight L. Moody

"In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory that is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul." Rom. 8:11-23 (Dr. Wm. Barclay New Testament Bible Translation)

 

[rnmomof7]

1st April 2003 at 02:07 PM FineLinen said this in Post #118


"Prayer does not mean that I am to bring God down to my thoughts and purposes and bend His government according to my foolish and sometimes sinful notions.

Prayer means that I am raised up into feeling, into union and design with Him; that I am to enter into His counsel and carry out His purposes fully." Dwight L. Moody

"In my reckoning, whatever we are called upon to suffer in this present time cannot compare with the glory that is going to burst upon us. For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show the world who his sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it. But the situation was never hopeless, because even the created universe itself will be liberated from its servitude to death's decay, and will come to enjoy the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that up to now the whole created universe groans in all its parts, like a woman in the birthpangs. This is not only true of the created universe. We too, even although we have received in the Spirit a foretaste of what the new life will be like, groan inwardly, as we wait longingly for God to complete his adoption of us, so that we will be emancipated from sin, both body and soul." Rom. 8:11-23 (Dr. Wm. Barclay New Testament Bible Translation)

Excellent resources..Thank you

I agree the grand purpose of prayer is to bend my will to Gods..

 

[rnmomof7]

I want to return the links with a new one for you

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