what do you all believe about predestination?? Does the Bible teach it? What about "free will"??? Is there such a thing as "Free Will"?
Predestination/"Free Will"
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Gabriel
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This is not an easy thing to get into in a short amount of time.
Read my signature. Notice the references to election, chosen, predestined (marked out before hand). We did not choose Him, He chose us. Other scripture that backs that up: Romans 8 : 26-30 and Romans 9 : 13-18. There is ALOT more, if you want it just ask.
Now ....free will. This is where people freak out. First you must realize we are ALL born into sin and the wages of sin is death. As a non-christian any choice we make is evil as it is not for the glory of God. At this point we do not have free will. All choices are evil. Kick the cat or pet the cat, as a non-christian all our choices are bad. We are slaves to sin. When we become regenerate, we are cleansed and made new by the grace of God through Christ. (Amen) At this point we have free CHOICE. Pet the cat- good, kick the cat-bad or sin. We are now a part of the family of God. The good that you do glorifies Him. You now know the true difference between right and wrong and are free to choose either or.
HOWEVER, all things have been preordained by God before the foundation of the world. ALL things (even sin) work together to complete God's plan. Does God make you sin? No, but He allows it. Don't put Him in our timeline, though. He knew what you would do before he even created the earth and the heavens, He is not changing His plan according to our actions. Confused yet?
This will make it worse. Luke 22 : 22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to the man by whom He is betrayed. And Matthew 26 : 23&24 He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand in the dish will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." These two verses are referring to Judas' betrayal of Jesus. While Judas knew the difference between good and evil and he CHOSE to sin by betraying Jesus, it was a necessary part of God's plan in which it also fulfills scripture. But he will be held accountable.
This may confuse you. It confused me a bit. I prayed and prayed and turned to scripture. I am convinced and Praise God for predestination. If God had not called me, chose me, elected me, I doubt I would have chosen him. Saul of Tarsus certainly would not have turned to Christ without the quickening of the Spirit. Salvation is not our choice, it's Gods. God CHOSE YOU. Doesn't it make your salvation all the more precious? It does for me.
You don't have to completely understand it, just pray about it and read the scripture.
Others will post and tell you, "You Choose Christ". Others will tell you that we always had free will. This is my spin on it based on alot of research, soul searching and prayer. I grew up Baptist. The whole concept of election was totally opposite of what I was always taught and if you pick and choose which scripture you use to explain it, you can find the Arminian view. But all scripture backs up election. It is mentioned too often to be a misconception.
Oh, one more thing. People will tell you that God chose you because He knew that you would choose Him. The flaw in this arguement is that it leaves God REACTING to you. God doesn't react to us. All things happen as preordained by Him according to His good pleasure.
If you have questions, ask. I hope I haven't confused you more.
God Bless.
Read my signature. Notice the references to election, chosen, predestined (marked out before hand). We did not choose Him, He chose us. Other scripture that backs that up: Romans 8 : 26-30 and Romans 9 : 13-18. There is ALOT more, if you want it just ask.
Now ....free will. This is where people freak out. First you must realize we are ALL born into sin and the wages of sin is death. As a non-christian any choice we make is evil as it is not for the glory of God. At this point we do not have free will. All choices are evil. Kick the cat or pet the cat, as a non-christian all our choices are bad. We are slaves to sin. When we become regenerate, we are cleansed and made new by the grace of God through Christ. (Amen) At this point we have free CHOICE. Pet the cat- good, kick the cat-bad or sin. We are now a part of the family of God. The good that you do glorifies Him. You now know the true difference between right and wrong and are free to choose either or.
HOWEVER, all things have been preordained by God before the foundation of the world. ALL things (even sin) work together to complete God's plan. Does God make you sin? No, but He allows it. Don't put Him in our timeline, though. He knew what you would do before he even created the earth and the heavens, He is not changing His plan according to our actions. Confused yet?
This will make it worse. Luke 22 : 22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to the man by whom He is betrayed. And Matthew 26 : 23&24 He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand in the dish will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." These two verses are referring to Judas' betrayal of Jesus. While Judas knew the difference between good and evil and he CHOSE to sin by betraying Jesus, it was a necessary part of God's plan in which it also fulfills scripture. But he will be held accountable.
This may confuse you. It confused me a bit. I prayed and prayed and turned to scripture. I am convinced and Praise God for predestination. If God had not called me, chose me, elected me, I doubt I would have chosen him. Saul of Tarsus certainly would not have turned to Christ without the quickening of the Spirit. Salvation is not our choice, it's Gods. God CHOSE YOU. Doesn't it make your salvation all the more precious? It does for me.
You don't have to completely understand it, just pray about it and read the scripture.
Others will post and tell you, "You Choose Christ". Others will tell you that we always had free will. This is my spin on it based on alot of research, soul searching and prayer. I grew up Baptist. The whole concept of election was totally opposite of what I was always taught and if you pick and choose which scripture you use to explain it, you can find the Arminian view. But all scripture backs up election. It is mentioned too often to be a misconception.
Oh, one more thing. People will tell you that God chose you because He knew that you would choose Him. The flaw in this arguement is that it leaves God REACTING to you. God doesn't react to us. All things happen as preordained by Him according to His good pleasure.
If you have questions, ask. I hope I haven't confused you more.
God Bless.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Hey new2calvin! Welcome to the boards. I hope that your time here is fruitful in your growth in the Word. So what do I believe about predestination? Huge topic. Let me address that last.
Absolutely. In every book, on every page the sovereign, preordained plan of God is executed in accordance with His counsel alone.
Understand that the concept of our will being free is, in itself, a contradiction for a Christian. "Free will" is not the ability to make choices. We were created in the image of God, fearfully and wonderfully, and were definitely created with the ability to make choices. To claim that our will is free is to say that our will is not subject to anything outside of ourselves, nor is it influenced in any way by our fallen nature. Essentially, the doctrine of "free will" denies the sovereignty of God, and the Fall of mankind, two of the most important points to understanding Biblical salvation. If you want to know if your will is free ask yourself these questions:
Are my choices subject to the Law of God?
Are my choices subject to the falleness of my nature?
If you can answer yes to either, or both, of these then your will is not free.
Now, what do I believe about predestination? Hmmm...again this is a huge topic and I urge you not to discount it until you have sought counsel here or with other learned Christians and searched the Scriptures. Essentially, the doctrine of predestination says that God, before the foundations of the world, has sovereignly foreordained exactly how His plan will unfold, to include the salvation of an elect group of people, who are elected based on His counsel not any merit within them.
Gabriel has done a nice job of starting it off but remember, this is a difficult thing to understand because we, by nature, are inclined to attribute everything to our works, to include our salvation. Make sure that your beliefs put God at the forefront and glorify Him in all your thoughts. Pray that He will reveal this amazing truth to you. And, feel free to ask any questions that might help you understand this view better.
God bless,
Don
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DaveKerwin
Represent the Most High
I will keep this short.
Right now, you and I have the free will to choose whatever. To us, we are free, because we are in time.
God is outside of time, to him we are predestined, because all of history is done. He sees all, including our entire lives played out, but we don't
It is rather complex. So are we predestined? Yes, to God. Do we have free will? Yes, to us. This is not an official stance on my part, rather how I have seen it as of late.
Right now, you and I have the free will to choose whatever. To us, we are free, because we are in time.
God is outside of time, to him we are predestined, because all of history is done. He sees all, including our entire lives played out, but we don't
It is rather complex. So are we predestined? Yes, to God. Do we have free will? Yes, to us. This is not an official stance on my part, rather how I have seen it as of late.
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Predestination:
I believe that there is predestination both to heaven and to hell. God chooses some for heaven and some for hell...thats just how it is...even the Apostle Paul preached predestination (Eph 1:4-5,11; Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13-14; 2Tim 1:9). And Paul was an Apostle of Jesus woudl God really alow something like that in th eBible if it were not true.
Free Will:
We do have "free will" but its not total free will like some people woul like to believe. Some say we hve the free will to chose whether we are saved or not and that is simply not true. We have the ability to make conscious choices but even those are sovreignly controlled by God. Even the ability to repent and exercise faith in Christ must be granted by God(Acts 5:31; 11:18; 16:14; 18:27; Phil 1:29) since, left to ourselves, we will only "recieve the grace of God in vain"(1 Cor 15:2; 2 Cor 6:2). THus, what God demands (namely, repentence and faith), he also supplies.
God be praised
I believe that there is predestination both to heaven and to hell. God chooses some for heaven and some for hell...thats just how it is...even the Apostle Paul preached predestination (Eph 1:4-5,11; Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13-14; 2Tim 1:9). And Paul was an Apostle of Jesus woudl God really alow something like that in th eBible if it were not true.
Free Will:
We do have "free will" but its not total free will like some people woul like to believe. Some say we hve the free will to chose whether we are saved or not and that is simply not true. We have the ability to make conscious choices but even those are sovreignly controlled by God. Even the ability to repent and exercise faith in Christ must be granted by God(Acts 5:31; 11:18; 16:14; 18:27; Phil 1:29) since, left to ourselves, we will only "recieve the grace of God in vain"(1 Cor 15:2; 2 Cor 6:2). THus, what God demands (namely, repentence and faith), he also supplies.
God be praised
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Well, it doesn't seem like you need any help understanding this. God has graced you with this truth. The more you study, the more it will be confirmed. God bless. I look forward to your participation in future threads. Ours is not a popular viewpoint on this MB but if you ever need encouragement, I'm here for you.
God bless,
Don
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On the contrary, Reformationist. I'd say yours is a popular view point on this MB. I, on the other hand, feel decidedly unpopular. LOL!
Michelle
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Really? I had thought that the whole "free will" view was the predominant one.
God bless
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Well I hope so. But it sure doesn't seem that way to me. Maybe it's because I spend most of my time in the Soteriology forum, though.
Michelle
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Gabriel
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new2calvin,
I agree with Don, you seem to have a pretty good understanding of it. You also have a much easier way of explaining it than I do
.
It is a seemingly tough doctrine. But it is actually quite beautiful and scripture backs it up at every turn. It centers on God's grace. He reaches into us and brings us alive, allowing us to see our sin and repent of it.
What I haven't seen mentioned here is the Covenant Family. Whenever God made a promise to a believer, it always extended to the believer's family as well. As with Abraham and Noah. Because of my election, my wife and children enjoy the protection and blessings of God. This does not guarantee their salvation, however. (Praise God they are all saved, though.) As a covenant believer, I am expected to raise my children in the admonation of the Lord, teaching them about Christ and, more important, showing them an example of a Christian father. See these scriptures : Acts 16 :5 -Lydia is saved and her WHOLE family is baptized. Or 1 Cor. 7 : 14 - The believing parent sanctifies their children. Or Luke 7 : 11-17 - Jesus raises the son from the dead because of his mother's faithfullness.
What are your thoughts on this Don? And would you care to get into infant baptism for our young friend?
I agree with Don, you seem to have a pretty good understanding of it. You also have a much easier way of explaining it than I do
.It is a seemingly tough doctrine. But it is actually quite beautiful and scripture backs it up at every turn. It centers on God's grace. He reaches into us and brings us alive, allowing us to see our sin and repent of it.
What I haven't seen mentioned here is the Covenant Family. Whenever God made a promise to a believer, it always extended to the believer's family as well. As with Abraham and Noah. Because of my election, my wife and children enjoy the protection and blessings of God. This does not guarantee their salvation, however. (Praise God they are all saved, though.) As a covenant believer, I am expected to raise my children in the admonation of the Lord, teaching them about Christ and, more important, showing them an example of a Christian father. See these scriptures : Acts 16 :5 -Lydia is saved and her WHOLE family is baptized. Or 1 Cor. 7 : 14 - The believing parent sanctifies their children. Or Luke 7 : 11-17 - Jesus raises the son from the dead because of his mother's faithfullness.
What are your thoughts on this Don? And would you care to get into infant baptism for our young friend?
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Originally posted by Gabriel
But we are glad to see that you stick around. It shows that the spirit is working on you.
If you say so, Gabe.
Michelle
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Originally posted by Gabriel
new2calvin,
I agree with Don, you seem to have a pretty good understanding of it. You also have a much easier way of explaining it than I do
It is a seemingly tough doctrine. But it is actually quite beautiful and scripture backs it up at every turn. It centers on God's grace. He reaches into us and brings us alive, allowing us to see our sin and repent of it.
What I haven't seen mentioned here is the Covenant Family. Whenever God made a promise to a believer, it always extended to the believer's family as well. As with Abraham and Noah. Because of my election, my wife and children enjoy the protection and blessings of God. This does not guarantee their salvation, however. (Praise God they are all saved, though.) As a covenant believer, I am expected to raise my children in the admonation of the Lord, teaching them about Christ and, more important, showing them an example of a Christian father. See these scriptures : Acts 16 :5 -Lydia is saved and her WHOLE family is baptized. Or 1 Cor. 7 : 14 - The believing parent sanctifies their children. Or Luke 7 : 11-17 - Jesus raises the son from the dead because of his mother's faithfullness.
What are your thoughts on this Don? And would you care to get into infant baptism for our young friend?
I agree with everything you have said here Gabe. I am by no means a scholar on the reformed faith. I just know what God has graced my feeble mind with. I am open to discussing infant baptism if you'd like.
God bless,
Don
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Gabriel
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Originally posted by Reformationist
I agree with everything you have said here Gabe. I am by no means a scholar on the reformed faith. I just know what God has graced my feeble mind with. I am open to discussing infant baptism if you'd like.
God bless,
Don
I have read alot of your posts. You are far from feeble.
Forgive me if I sound pompous in my posts. I love the truth of this doctrine and having just completed my Elder training my mind is buzzing with it. I tend to be a bit forcefull when discussing this subject. Something that alot of prayer has helped.
I would love to get into Baptism, but I need to go make dinner so we can be to prayer on time.
Until next time,
Gabe
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Feeble or not, I'm under no illusion as to how pompous and presumptuous I am on a regular basis. I just thank God that He continues to show me the truth of my sinfulness. How else would I overcome it? He, and the truth of His Word are definitely the greatest, most fulfilling thing there is.
Hey, I have church tonight too.
God bless you brother. I'm glad you are here. God bless,
Don
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hmmm...well... 
first off hi all...hoping God is richly blessing you all.
where do i start...
Some say that predestination doesnt and cant exist. They say this because they believe that is not fair. Has God ever called himself fair...and even if he has he has the right to do with his creation as he will. We, the created, cant control what the creator has done.
He really didnt have to save anyone. He could have said, "Darnit Adam. Now all your descendants will die as well. Ahh, well I dont care." God could have very well have said that. And he had every right to. Is creation had disobeyed him, and he deserves to punish us.
But he hand picked everyone before the end of time who would be saved.
As Romans 8:29-30 says, "29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Now first we have to look at a few words in this passage. First the word foreknew, this word in English means to know before hand, this definition does not totally get the point accross unlike in the greek. In the greek it means to know intamately. God does not know everyone intamately, he know everyone cause he made all and knows all. But the word intamately is used to show special meaning or that the person is special to God.
Another one is called. He called us. There is no other way to be saved. We cant save our selves. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. The called are his elect. And the elect he also justified. Now i believe that the term justified means that the elect are now given the ability to act more christ like. And these are now glorified. Glorified is the final act...eternal life.
Another argument against is whats the point in living if your just going to go to hell.
Thats a tough argument, but not infalible. What about the American Indians. They lived for thousands of years not knowing the gospel. Therefore, they all had to have gone to hell. You need Jesus to be saved. The Bible says that the people who havent heard will be judged by the law. Can any human being keep the perfectly, NO, so that means that they goto hell. If God truley loved them the same as the elect, he would save them as well. If he truely loved them why would God put them in a position, that they would goto hell. HMMM....maybe cuz he predestined them. Thats what I think.
God Be Praised
first off hi all...hoping God is richly blessing you all.
where do i start...
Some say that predestination doesnt and cant exist. They say this because they believe that is not fair. Has God ever called himself fair...and even if he has he has the right to do with his creation as he will. We, the created, cant control what the creator has done.
He really didnt have to save anyone. He could have said, "Darnit Adam. Now all your descendants will die as well. Ahh, well I dont care." God could have very well have said that. And he had every right to. Is creation had disobeyed him, and he deserves to punish us.
But he hand picked everyone before the end of time who would be saved.
As Romans 8:29-30 says, "29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Now first we have to look at a few words in this passage. First the word foreknew, this word in English means to know before hand, this definition does not totally get the point accross unlike in the greek. In the greek it means to know intamately. God does not know everyone intamately, he know everyone cause he made all and knows all. But the word intamately is used to show special meaning or that the person is special to God.
Another one is called. He called us. There is no other way to be saved. We cant save our selves. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. The called are his elect. And the elect he also justified. Now i believe that the term justified means that the elect are now given the ability to act more christ like. And these are now glorified. Glorified is the final act...eternal life.
Another argument against is whats the point in living if your just going to go to hell.
Thats a tough argument, but not infalible. What about the American Indians. They lived for thousands of years not knowing the gospel. Therefore, they all had to have gone to hell. You need Jesus to be saved. The Bible says that the people who havent heard will be judged by the law. Can any human being keep the perfectly, NO, so that means that they goto hell. If God truley loved them the same as the elect, he would save them as well. If he truely loved them why would God put them in a position, that they would goto hell. HMMM....maybe cuz he predestined them. Thats what I think.
God Be Praised
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In order to understand what is meant by "chosen" you have to look at it from the standpoint of a marriage covenant. You "choose" your spouse -- not because you were predestined to marry that person, but because your spouse had special qualities which you found attractive. But, you don't "choose" your spouse before those qualities have been displayed. Also, your spouse "chooses" you. It is a mutual "choice." The same applies here. One who is faithful to the Torah is an acceptable, and attractive bride -- he/she is "choice." One who is not faithful to the marriage covenant is an unacceptable, and unattractive "bride" -- he/she is not "choice."
In other words, those who are faithful are the ones whom God chooses. Those who are unfaithful He does not choose. It's like picking out apples in the grocery store, you pick out the good ones and leave the bad ones. The choice isn't "predestined," it is based on the quality of the item. Likewise, God's "choice" is based on the quality of the individual: those who are faithful vs. those who are unfaithful.
Shimon
In other words, those who are faithful are the ones whom God chooses. Those who are unfaithful He does not choose. It's like picking out apples in the grocery store, you pick out the good ones and leave the bad ones. The choice isn't "predestined," it is based on the quality of the item. Likewise, God's "choice" is based on the quality of the individual: those who are faithful vs. those who are unfaithful.
Shimon
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Exactly, and He knows who is "choice" before creation, but He doesn't predestine them as if they have no part in the matter, heh.
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really so what was the reason that God chose Jacob over Esau. It was profecied to be so (Genesis 25:23). God said "will serve" and "will be stronger" meaning he had ordained it to be so. MAking it predestined or chosen by God.
God Be Praised
God Be Praised
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Knight
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The argument that God "chooses" who will choose him is the same as arguing that a person chooses God. It still takes God's sovereignty away.
Ref, you and I were just discussing this.
If God only chose the faithful then none of us would be saved because no one can keep the Law perfectly.
Romans 3: 21-24
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Ref, you and I were just discussing this.
If God only chose the faithful then none of us would be saved because no one can keep the Law perfectly.
Romans 3: 21-24
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
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