God doesnt chose the faithful. Him choosing them causes the Holy Spirit to move through them. Therefore, making them faithful.(1 peter 1:2)
God Be Praised
God Be Praised
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Predestination/"Free Will"
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Yes, but scripture goes on to say that He chose us according to His foreknowledge. So...predestination vs. foreknowledge? I believe He chose us...according to His foreknowledge.
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RevKidd
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Don't forget though, that Jacob Arminius was teacher of Calvin and a student of Calvin, until one day, he was asked to defend Calvinism, and through his study, came to the knowledge that people do have a choice.
This is a difficult topic for myself and for many others. You have to believe in predestination to a point. If we believe that God is all knowing and knows all things from the beginning of time to the end of time then he should know who will and will not be saved. However, it is difficult to think that my family could possibly never be saved because they are not elect of God. It almost seems futile to even try to minister or evangelize the Gospel to the lost.
This is a difficult topic for myself and for many others. You have to believe in predestination to a point. If we believe that God is all knowing and knows all things from the beginning of time to the end of time then he should know who will and will not be saved. However, it is difficult to think that my family could possibly never be saved because they are not elect of God. It almost seems futile to even try to minister or evangelize the Gospel to the lost.
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Anyone ever read the words to an old Baptist Hymn "My Lord, I did not choose you"?
By: Josiah Conder (1836)
MY Lord, I did not choose you,
For that could never be.
My heart would still refuse you,
Had you not chosen me.
You took the sin that stained me,
Cleansed me, made me new.
Of old, You have ordained me,
That I should live in you.
Unless your Grace had called me,
And taught my opening mind.
The world would have enthralled me,
To Heavenly glories blind.
My heart knows none above you,
For your rich grace I thirst.
I know that if I love you,
You must have loved me first.
I did this song to a contemporary arrangement as "special" music a few times and a few people called me on the lyrics, troubled by the words for some reason until I showed them it was in their Baptist hymnal.
It's not scripture, but it shows us a beautiful way to see the relationship we have with God. John 15:16 is where we find Jesus telling His chosen ones that they did not choose Him.
We may never settle this issue, nor should we let it divide us in any manner, because, we did not choose this.
Blessings
By: Josiah Conder (1836)
MY Lord, I did not choose you,
For that could never be.
My heart would still refuse you,
Had you not chosen me.
You took the sin that stained me,
Cleansed me, made me new.
Of old, You have ordained me,
That I should live in you.
Unless your Grace had called me,
And taught my opening mind.
The world would have enthralled me,
To Heavenly glories blind.
My heart knows none above you,
For your rich grace I thirst.
I know that if I love you,
You must have loved me first.
I did this song to a contemporary arrangement as "special" music a few times and a few people called me on the lyrics, troubled by the words for some reason until I showed them it was in their Baptist hymnal.
It's not scripture, but it shows us a beautiful way to see the relationship we have with God. John 15:16 is where we find Jesus telling His chosen ones that they did not choose Him.
We may never settle this issue, nor should we let it divide us in any manner, because, we did not choose this.
Blessings
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john14_20
...you in me and I in you
Hello friends. It seems to me that the great battle here is between Arminianism and Calvanism, as if there were no other alternatives. People on both sides of this debate have a great problem with what the other side believes, and with good reason; both views are fundamentally flawed.
Leviathan is correct; why should I bother attempting to evangelise to my family? If they are not pre-destined they are headed for the pit no matter what I do, and if they are pre-destined, well God's gonna make sure they get to Heaven with or without me.
New2calvin, you write"What about the American Indians. They lived for thousands of years not knowing the gospel. Therefore, they all had to have gone to hell. You need Jesus to be saved. The Bible says that the people who havent heard will be judged by the law." Reference please? Further from this, millions of people will never hear the Gospel due to thier culture, are they all doomed too? What about babies and little children? Please explain your position.
Gabriel, you write, "As a non-christian any choice we make is evil as it is not for the glory of God. At this point we do not have free will. All choices are evil. Kick the cat or pet the cat, as a non-christian all our choices are bad. We are slaves to sin. When we become regenerate, we are cleansed and made new by the grace of God through Christ. (Amen) At this point we have free CHOICE. Pet the cat- good, kick the cat-bad or sin." This is a truly extra-ordinary position. How can one activity be evil if performed by a non-Christian, yet good when performed by the Christian. The activity itself is important. Robbing a bank is evil, whether performed by a Christian or non-Christian. Donating money to the poor is good, whether performed by a Christian or non-Christian. When I play with my children, we have a great time. The room is filled with joy and fun, laughter and life. My neighbour also plays with his children, yet he does not yet know the Lord. How exactly is my behaviour good, yet his evil? He loves his children as much as me. He wants the best for his family, like me. Our actions are the same, our motivation is the same, yet you say one is good and one is evil. My neighbour and I are both participationg in something huge and vast and magnificent. We are sharing in the love of God for His people, loving our families with His love, for what do we have aside from that which He has given us? Is the difference between my neighbour and myself nothing more than I have seen the glory in which I am a paerticipant and he has not?
Later you write, "I believe that there is predestination both to heaven and to hell. God chooses some for heaven and some for hell...thats just how it is...even the Apostle Paul preached predestination". You are half right. The Apostle Paul did preach predestination, but predestination to both Heaven and hell? Not in the Scriptures my brother. All those references you mentioned were predestinations to Heaven, Paul never said anything about predestination to hell.
So what then is predestination? The calvinist says that God chose, by His own free will, those who would be with Him forever in paradise, and those who would not. The arminian position either denies predestination, or says that God predestined those whe He foreknew would respond to the Gospel. The core message from the calvanist is that salvation is all of God, and the core message from the arminian is that salvation rests upon the free decision of the individual.
In calvanism, we see a God who simply does not want to save everyone, in fact He creates many just to **** them. In arminianism, we see a God who may well want to save everyone, but can't get the job done. What the two positions have in common, is the reductionist view of Jesus Christ. In both models we see Jesus as having had far less impact on the state of humanity than Adam had. To many theologians, this is simply unacceptable.
An alternate view of predestination is held by Christological theologians. It is simply this; that one man and only one man is elcted and predestined, and that man is Jesus Christ. It is inside of Christ that all of humanity is thus predestined. All things were made by and through Christ, and it is Christ that sustains all things. The connection that Christ has with humanity was solidified in the Incarnation to the extent that whatever happens to the Son of God, actually happens to humanity - hence Paul can say "I reached this conclusion, one died for all, therefore all died". So in Christ's predestination, all of humanity is predestined. Karl Barth held to this view, claiming that there was no difference between believer and non-believer apart from one knows what Christ has made of them and one does not. The oner who does not know what Christ has made of them does not live in accordance with thier true nature therefore. As for matters eternal, when quizzed as to the eternal fate of one who is elected yet lives as if they were not, Barth refused to postulate.
Blessings to all, Pete.
Leviathan is correct; why should I bother attempting to evangelise to my family? If they are not pre-destined they are headed for the pit no matter what I do, and if they are pre-destined, well God's gonna make sure they get to Heaven with or without me.
New2calvin, you write"What about the American Indians. They lived for thousands of years not knowing the gospel. Therefore, they all had to have gone to hell. You need Jesus to be saved. The Bible says that the people who havent heard will be judged by the law." Reference please? Further from this, millions of people will never hear the Gospel due to thier culture, are they all doomed too? What about babies and little children? Please explain your position.
Gabriel, you write, "As a non-christian any choice we make is evil as it is not for the glory of God. At this point we do not have free will. All choices are evil. Kick the cat or pet the cat, as a non-christian all our choices are bad. We are slaves to sin. When we become regenerate, we are cleansed and made new by the grace of God through Christ. (Amen) At this point we have free CHOICE. Pet the cat- good, kick the cat-bad or sin." This is a truly extra-ordinary position. How can one activity be evil if performed by a non-Christian, yet good when performed by the Christian. The activity itself is important. Robbing a bank is evil, whether performed by a Christian or non-Christian. Donating money to the poor is good, whether performed by a Christian or non-Christian. When I play with my children, we have a great time. The room is filled with joy and fun, laughter and life. My neighbour also plays with his children, yet he does not yet know the Lord. How exactly is my behaviour good, yet his evil? He loves his children as much as me. He wants the best for his family, like me. Our actions are the same, our motivation is the same, yet you say one is good and one is evil. My neighbour and I are both participationg in something huge and vast and magnificent. We are sharing in the love of God for His people, loving our families with His love, for what do we have aside from that which He has given us? Is the difference between my neighbour and myself nothing more than I have seen the glory in which I am a paerticipant and he has not?
Later you write, "I believe that there is predestination both to heaven and to hell. God chooses some for heaven and some for hell...thats just how it is...even the Apostle Paul preached predestination". You are half right. The Apostle Paul did preach predestination, but predestination to both Heaven and hell? Not in the Scriptures my brother. All those references you mentioned were predestinations to Heaven, Paul never said anything about predestination to hell.
So what then is predestination? The calvinist says that God chose, by His own free will, those who would be with Him forever in paradise, and those who would not. The arminian position either denies predestination, or says that God predestined those whe He foreknew would respond to the Gospel. The core message from the calvanist is that salvation is all of God, and the core message from the arminian is that salvation rests upon the free decision of the individual.
In calvanism, we see a God who simply does not want to save everyone, in fact He creates many just to **** them. In arminianism, we see a God who may well want to save everyone, but can't get the job done. What the two positions have in common, is the reductionist view of Jesus Christ. In both models we see Jesus as having had far less impact on the state of humanity than Adam had. To many theologians, this is simply unacceptable.
An alternate view of predestination is held by Christological theologians. It is simply this; that one man and only one man is elcted and predestined, and that man is Jesus Christ. It is inside of Christ that all of humanity is thus predestined. All things were made by and through Christ, and it is Christ that sustains all things. The connection that Christ has with humanity was solidified in the Incarnation to the extent that whatever happens to the Son of God, actually happens to humanity - hence Paul can say "I reached this conclusion, one died for all, therefore all died". So in Christ's predestination, all of humanity is predestined. Karl Barth held to this view, claiming that there was no difference between believer and non-believer apart from one knows what Christ has made of them and one does not. The oner who does not know what Christ has made of them does not live in accordance with thier true nature therefore. As for matters eternal, when quizzed as to the eternal fate of one who is elected yet lives as if they were not, Barth refused to postulate.
Blessings to all, Pete.
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Gabriel
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My point was that as an unregenerate person even you good deeds are evil. Why? Because they are not done to the glory of God. You who were once slaves to sin are nows slaves to righteousness.
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john14_20
...you in me and I in you
Hi Gabriel, Happy New Year to you and everyone else too. Two things for you. Firstly, I don't see how "You who were once slaves to sin are now slaves to righteousness." relates to every choice the non-Christian makes being evil. Being a slave to sin is not the same thing as saying all choices and actions are sinful. Secondly, you have not dealt with anything in my post beyond that point. Would you like to respond?
Blessings in Christ, pete.
Blessings in Christ, pete.
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Gabriel
I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found
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I didnt address the rest of your post because I have addressed these issues time and time agian on this board. Additionally, I have no desire to argue my points with you as I doubt you are open to them. I am attempting to get away from the arguing as it does none of us any good. I thoroughly explained my position, which is not one I came to lightly or overnight.
I will clarify my quote above. As a slave to sin you can make "good" decisions, but you cannot make godly or righteous decisions. God says that if we are not for Him, we are against Him. Whatever we choose outside of his will is sinful, because it is not of Him. As a slave to righteousness you have the ability to make godly decisions. Therefore if you do something good that is done for the purpose of furthering His kingdom, it is good in His eyes. this I also explained clearly in the post you originally read. You don't have to believe it. But I do.
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Gabriel
I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found
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I was not angry with you in this post. I was simply saying that I had given a thorough explanation of my point and didn't want to end up arguing. You are obviously intelligent and have a belief system firmly embedded in your faith. We could go back and forth trying to change each other's minds, but to what end? I feel neither threatened or challenged by your statements. I fear much is lost on these boards because we are unable to read body language and hear each other's tone of voice. Often when someone is to the point it is misunderstood.
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john14_20
...you in me and I in you
Gabriel, you are right, particularly with the last point regarding misunderstandings. I am heading over to another discussion, so I will say farewell to you, until we meet in another forum or if not before, in eternity. One thing I am sure we can agree on, is that our theology does not save us (praise God!), but only Jesus Christ saves us. We both have an unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ, and while our theologies differ as to how that all came about, there can be no doubt that we will meet one day in Heaven.
May God richly bless your life, Pete.
May God richly bless your life, Pete.
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Gabriel
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Originally posted by john14_20
Gabriel, you are right, particularly with the last point regarding misunderstandings. I am heading over to another discussion, so I will say farewell to you, until we meet in another forum or if not before, in eternity. One thing I am sure we can agree on, is that our theology does not save us (praise God!), but only Jesus Christ saves us. We both have an unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ, and while our theologies differ as to how that all came about, there can be no doubt that we will meet one day in Heaven.
May God richly bless your life, Pete.
I'm glad that we understand the basic need for a savior. And you are certainly correct in the fact that our theology does not save us.
Be well, until we meet again.
Grace to you.
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endure
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uhh some people confuse me...
but i know this.
1 tim 2.4 says that Gods will is for ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
john 3.17 says that THE WORLD through jesus might be saved.
the world refers to all peoples not a certain chosen number.
people say that the will of God is certain to happen and certain people are saved and certain are not becuase this is his will.
it is clear from scripture that his will is nothing else but that ALL PEOPLE BE SAVED, and that NONE PERISH.
yet.....
people are in hell.
if the scripture teaches that Gods will happens, regardless of man, and that God only chose a few to be saved and some not to be saved, but also clearly says that God wills for all peoples to be saved, yet not all are...
then ill throw away my bible becuase the word of God is a never ending mase of unperceivable, iireducible contradictions.
predestination is taught in scripture but predestination simply teaches that God has a will for us from before the beggining of time, but not that it will come to pass or that men will follow it.
the fact that Gods will is for all men to be saved and none to perish, and that some people are in hell, prove that there is no such truth as God choosing some to be saved and some not to, and that there is no such truth as Gods will being unavoidable.
i wont go into the years it takes to prove this on every scripture. but what i have said is clear enough.
if this is not true, then the bible is a mass of neverending contradictions.
but i know this.
1 tim 2.4 says that Gods will is for ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
john 3.17 says that THE WORLD through jesus might be saved.
the world refers to all peoples not a certain chosen number.
people say that the will of God is certain to happen and certain people are saved and certain are not becuase this is his will.
it is clear from scripture that his will is nothing else but that ALL PEOPLE BE SAVED, and that NONE PERISH.
yet.....
people are in hell.
if the scripture teaches that Gods will happens, regardless of man, and that God only chose a few to be saved and some not to be saved, but also clearly says that God wills for all peoples to be saved, yet not all are...
then ill throw away my bible becuase the word of God is a never ending mase of unperceivable, iireducible contradictions.
predestination is taught in scripture but predestination simply teaches that God has a will for us from before the beggining of time, but not that it will come to pass or that men will follow it.
the fact that Gods will is for all men to be saved and none to perish, and that some people are in hell, prove that there is no such truth as God choosing some to be saved and some not to, and that there is no such truth as Gods will being unavoidable.
i wont go into the years it takes to prove this on every scripture. but what i have said is clear enough.
if this is not true, then the bible is a mass of neverending contradictions.
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Defender of the Faith 777
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OK, LOLOL! ROFL!
That was a laugh of a person losing his sanity! Have we not explained 3,000 times, that we don't interpret "world" to mean "every single man and woman who has ever lived" in every circumstance? No, I don't think I'll explain it again. I need a Dr. Pepper; I'm feel my sanity slipping away in a crazy sense.
You're certainly welcome to check one of our histories of posts and see our explanations. I give up explaining. WIlikers! Mly typign is getitng slurued!
That was a laugh of a person losing his sanity! Have we not explained 3,000 times, that we don't interpret "world" to mean "every single man and woman who has ever lived" in every circumstance? No, I don't think I'll explain it again. I need a Dr. Pepper; I'm feel my sanity slipping away in a crazy sense.
You're certainly welcome to check one of our histories of posts and see our explanations. I give up explaining. WIlikers! Mly typign is getitng slurued!
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endure
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mmm....
ok buddy you cant refute a post by saying i used one word wrong.
there where a whole lot more evidences in there besides that one word, but thats how people are sometimes...
i understand that the word "world" often actually means a society and not the earth or planet.
but in this context the word world in john 3.17 actually just means its inhabitants or just plain ol world.
dont let your confidence in yourself make you so arrogant that you will blatantly laugh at another as if they were somehow less than you, dont let confidence in yourself blind you to counsel.
ok buddy you cant refute a post by saying i used one word wrong.
there where a whole lot more evidences in there besides that one word, but thats how people are sometimes...
i understand that the word "world" often actually means a society and not the earth or planet.
but in this context the word world in john 3.17 actually just means its inhabitants or just plain ol world.
dont let your confidence in yourself make you so arrogant that you will blatantly laugh at another as if they were somehow less than you, dont let confidence in yourself blind you to counsel.
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Heres a big picture
.
It ought not bother us that people who believe in free will do. For so they were predestined!
It ought not bother us that people who believe in predestination do. For it is their choice!
Heres a big picture
. It ought not bother us that people who believe in free will do. For so they were predestined!
It ought not bother us that people who believe in predestination do. For it is their choice!
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endure
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hehe true true.
well, if a person truely believes in predestination, would thay accept that God predestined me to do something that is not true? such as me believing in free-will which they think is not?
what kind of God would do that? punish me for something i had no way to avoid?
i mean, why does the holyspirit strive with man if man is predestined to do what he will do? and why can he be grieved if he predestined everything that happens?
well, if a person truely believes in predestination, would thay accept that God predestined me to do something that is not true? such as me believing in free-will which they think is not?
what kind of God would do that? punish me for something i had no way to avoid?
i mean, why does the holyspirit strive with man if man is predestined to do what he will do? and why can he be grieved if he predestined everything that happens?
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endure, Pleased to see you found the humor in the irony of my oversimplification .
Should you find satisfactory answers to your above listed questions, I will be flabbergasted. As you go alookin I would like to throw in a few more questions for you to watch out for, like; If God does predestinate, how does He make His selection? Does God have a free-will? Is the highest expression of free-will to predestinate?
The term free-will, as applied to man, does raise my hackles just a little bit. A will we do have, but FREE such a thing I have not experienced. But of course my experience is not a weighty issue for anyone else.
Heres a test. If you believe in free-will, then try using your free-will to NOT believe in free-will anymore. Use your free-will to believe in predestination. Yeah, give that little brain-teaser a run for the money use your free-will to stop believing in free-will! Now, assuming you were successful in that test then salvation will be a piece of cake for you. Use your free-will (a will that is unimpeded by any encumbrances) and do what Jesus said to do while He on earth in the flesh keep the law perfectly body, soul and spirit.
The vast majority of the time that Jesus Christ was in the flesh He taught salvation by the keeping of the law. His interpretation of the law was far more stringent than most, but nonetheless He preached salvation by the keeping of the law, perfectly. For example, Thou shalt not kill. The words are simple. Do not illegally kill another human being. But Jesus drills through to the other side of the words and interprets is thusly:
Dang! anyone who is angry with a brother will be subject to judgment . just as the person would commits murder. Dang, dang, dang . them there are some high standards. Of course we know He didnt stop there lets see theres lust that equates to adultery, theres one mile equals two miles, giving one coat really means give two, if your smacked (and I dont mean kissed) on the right cheek present the other cheek and look for an encore. DANG!
Jesus Himself was under the auspices of the Old Covenant all the days of His sojourn on earth up to His crucifixion. He did not inaugurate the New Covenant until the eve just prior to His crucifixion. Some have called it the Last Supper when the New Covenant was commenced actually it was the Last Supper for the Old Covenant, BUT it was the First Supper for the New Covenant. But I digress . again.
Paul records the difficulty of aligning the rest of himself with his will. His will to do did not overpower the sin in his flesh.
We press on . thank you for your momentary rapt attention
Maranatha,
EDIT Ooops, almost forgot - Jesus most have had a free will - He never sinned, hmmmmmm
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endure
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ah, thanx for your reply i like reading the thoughts of others when it is friendly talk.
i hope you dont mind if i give my thoughts on these subjects.
hehe
my simple answer to my questions is that predestination as people see it today is not true.
i do believe in predestination but not what people think it means most of the time today.
i believe predestination is true, God predestines things, but this predestination is simply Gods plan, it does not mean that people will hearken unto it and follow it, or that it will be brought to pass.
God predestined me to be saved, but that does not mean that i will be saved. predestination is only reffering to the plan of God for people, not the actions of people.
Gods predestination is his will. what would God predestine that was not his will?
his will is for all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, God predestined all to be saved.
but people are in hell at this moment and more enter everyday, what he predestined did not come to pass. because an omnipotent Gods plan being fullfilled is subject to his weaker followers who do not always do as they should. Gods plan was for his weaker people to do as they should and follow him forever, but this did not come to pass.
predestination is only speaking of Gods plan, not an obligation for man to obey it.
when the bible speaks of men saying they got saved becuase they were predestined to do so, it is simply saying they partook in Gods salvation becuase it was available, becuase it was his plan. but in no way are they saying or did they mean that they did not have the ability to do otherwise.
it is reffering to the reason they are saved: which is "becuase it was available" and the reason for this is "because it was the plan of God".
that is why they said they are saved becuase they were predestined.
they did not mean they were saved because the before plan of God controlled them to do so.
or else there would be no such thing as "gods wrath coming upon the children of disobedience" as it said in uhmm corinthians i think.
well i think my free-will enables me to believe that i do not have it, but i will not do this, but yeah i could if i was convinced that it was true. because i have had my beliefs changed over and over. but the predestination believing person says that was only predestined....so...
you said jesus was working in the old covenant untill around the time of his death.
i know most believe that, but i dont believe that and this why.
i beleive the new covenant's era started with John the baptist.
becuase he preached the new covenant, salvation by grace, and repentance for sins. repentance for sins was not a principle of the old law, the old law could not cleanse a man but only **** him, only blood does away with sin. and like it says in hebrews, the blood of lambs and bulls was not enough, so this was not an old covenant principle.
he preached the gospel first, so i believe he was the beginning of the new covenant.
jesus worked in the new covenant more than once while on the earth long before his death, becuase he forgave sins freely to more than one person. if this isnt the new covenant what is?
the mercy and grace and benefits of the new covenant was available before jesus' death.
people were saved and filled with the spirit before jesus died also.
jesus was filled with the spirit.
elisabeth and john the baptist were both filled the spirit.
the disciples partook of the spirit.
jesus said the disciples' names were written in heavon, they were saved and had the holyspirit dwelling in them.
the disciples worked in the power of the new covenant before jesus death.
on and on.
the benefits of the new covenant were present before jesus' death, the only things that werent, were being BAPTISED in the spirit and speaking in tongues.
i know you will probly disagree with me on this but i believe people were saved even in the old covenant, even born again.
becuase there is a scripture that speaks of people in the old covenant being "born of the spirit".
sorry that i cant find that, my bible isnt handy, this is all off the top of my head.
i believe the new covenant began and could be worked in when it began to be preached to peoples, this happened with john the baptist.
but i believe people have partaken of its benefits long before that even, becuase all one had to do was have faith as abraham did and have it counted as salvation by grace, a new covenant thing, that happened even before any kind of old covenant was even made.
i believe people of all ages were able to partake of new covenant things before the new covenant era began, becuase they could have faith in what Jesus was going to do, even though it wasnt done yet. they could have faith in the future works of jesus and be saved, the same as we get saved through faith in him, but simply before it happened and have it counted as salvation.
old testament peoples knew of the actions of the future christ, becuase they had it prophicied and written to them, but they longed to see it.
i know that seems odd...
but that is my only explanation for people being "born of the spirit" which is being born that second time, being born again, even in the old covenant.
just becuase you were in the time of the old covenant, a time or law, did not mean you had to put your confidence in the law, i believe many people even under the era of law, still put their confidence in faith in Christ, and so partook of new covenant blessings.
becuase people were saved under the old covenant, moses, joshua and the isrealites had their names written in heavon, becuase both moses and joshua and david too i think, asked God not to blot them out of the book of life.
if you read on into the last part of romans 7 and into the beginning of romans 8 you see what pauls says change.
he says that the thing which overpowered him "the law of sin in his members" was OVERCAME by "the law of the spirit of life by jesus christ"
when paul was speaking of being controlled by sin that was in his body, i do not believe he was speaking of his present state. but he was speaking of a time between his salvation and him being set by the holyspirit which was complete when he wrote romans.
becuase there was no feeling of wrong before his salvation, he said there was a time when he did know the law. he said that before he was saved he did what he did with a clean conscience and even did them in the name of God, but when he actually met God he said "who are you lord?"... on the raod to damascus. man that will preach... hehe.
this time of struggling was not before he actually met God.
and it was not after he was set free because he said thing that bound him was "the law of sin and death in his members"
and in romans 8 first off he says "i have been set free from the law of sin and death"
i dont believe paul was saying that he was bound to live in sin, subject to the apetites of our flesh.
becuase this defeats much of his teaching when he said that
"how can we who are dead to sin live in sin anylonger?"
"do not let sin reighn in your mortal bodies"
"sin shall not have dominion over you"
"awake to righteousness and sin not"
"what then? shall we sin becuase we are under grace and not under the law? God forbid!"
paul atleast taught that christians were not to be controlled by sin, this would be meaningless if he also taught that he himself was controlled by sin.
i believe there is a glorious freedom available to christians who are willing to believe, and who are willing to conform even the most secret and personal areas of their lives to the hand of God and allow him to chart the paths of our lives, and allow him to fill us with his holiness birthing power that will enable us to follow on these paths.
i am glad to fellowship with you, i hope my beliefs do not offend you, but this is what i believe untill God or a servant of God shows me diffrent, i hope we can continue in friendly conversation.
lee myers.
i hope you dont mind if i give my thoughts on these subjects.
hehe
my simple answer to my questions is that predestination as people see it today is not true.
i do believe in predestination but not what people think it means most of the time today.
i believe predestination is true, God predestines things, but this predestination is simply Gods plan, it does not mean that people will hearken unto it and follow it, or that it will be brought to pass.
God predestined me to be saved, but that does not mean that i will be saved. predestination is only reffering to the plan of God for people, not the actions of people.
Gods predestination is his will. what would God predestine that was not his will?
his will is for all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, God predestined all to be saved.
but people are in hell at this moment and more enter everyday, what he predestined did not come to pass. because an omnipotent Gods plan being fullfilled is subject to his weaker followers who do not always do as they should. Gods plan was for his weaker people to do as they should and follow him forever, but this did not come to pass.
predestination is only speaking of Gods plan, not an obligation for man to obey it.
when the bible speaks of men saying they got saved becuase they were predestined to do so, it is simply saying they partook in Gods salvation becuase it was available, becuase it was his plan. but in no way are they saying or did they mean that they did not have the ability to do otherwise.
it is reffering to the reason they are saved: which is "becuase it was available" and the reason for this is "because it was the plan of God".
that is why they said they are saved becuase they were predestined.
they did not mean they were saved because the before plan of God controlled them to do so.
or else there would be no such thing as "gods wrath coming upon the children of disobedience" as it said in uhmm corinthians i think.
well i think my free-will enables me to believe that i do not have it, but i will not do this, but yeah i could if i was convinced that it was true. because i have had my beliefs changed over and over. but the predestination believing person says that was only predestined....so...
you said jesus was working in the old covenant untill around the time of his death.
i know most believe that, but i dont believe that and this why.
i beleive the new covenant's era started with John the baptist.
becuase he preached the new covenant, salvation by grace, and repentance for sins. repentance for sins was not a principle of the old law, the old law could not cleanse a man but only **** him, only blood does away with sin. and like it says in hebrews, the blood of lambs and bulls was not enough, so this was not an old covenant principle.
he preached the gospel first, so i believe he was the beginning of the new covenant.
jesus worked in the new covenant more than once while on the earth long before his death, becuase he forgave sins freely to more than one person. if this isnt the new covenant what is?
the mercy and grace and benefits of the new covenant was available before jesus' death.
people were saved and filled with the spirit before jesus died also.
jesus was filled with the spirit.
elisabeth and john the baptist were both filled the spirit.
the disciples partook of the spirit.
jesus said the disciples' names were written in heavon, they were saved and had the holyspirit dwelling in them.
the disciples worked in the power of the new covenant before jesus death.
on and on.
the benefits of the new covenant were present before jesus' death, the only things that werent, were being BAPTISED in the spirit and speaking in tongues.
i know you will probly disagree with me on this but i believe people were saved even in the old covenant, even born again.
becuase there is a scripture that speaks of people in the old covenant being "born of the spirit".
sorry that i cant find that, my bible isnt handy, this is all off the top of my head.
i believe the new covenant began and could be worked in when it began to be preached to peoples, this happened with john the baptist.
but i believe people have partaken of its benefits long before that even, becuase all one had to do was have faith as abraham did and have it counted as salvation by grace, a new covenant thing, that happened even before any kind of old covenant was even made.
i believe people of all ages were able to partake of new covenant things before the new covenant era began, becuase they could have faith in what Jesus was going to do, even though it wasnt done yet. they could have faith in the future works of jesus and be saved, the same as we get saved through faith in him, but simply before it happened and have it counted as salvation.
old testament peoples knew of the actions of the future christ, becuase they had it prophicied and written to them, but they longed to see it.
i know that seems odd...
but that is my only explanation for people being "born of the spirit" which is being born that second time, being born again, even in the old covenant.
just becuase you were in the time of the old covenant, a time or law, did not mean you had to put your confidence in the law, i believe many people even under the era of law, still put their confidence in faith in Christ, and so partook of new covenant blessings.
becuase people were saved under the old covenant, moses, joshua and the isrealites had their names written in heavon, becuase both moses and joshua and david too i think, asked God not to blot them out of the book of life.
if you read on into the last part of romans 7 and into the beginning of romans 8 you see what pauls says change.
he says that the thing which overpowered him "the law of sin in his members" was OVERCAME by "the law of the spirit of life by jesus christ"
when paul was speaking of being controlled by sin that was in his body, i do not believe he was speaking of his present state. but he was speaking of a time between his salvation and him being set by the holyspirit which was complete when he wrote romans.
becuase there was no feeling of wrong before his salvation, he said there was a time when he did know the law. he said that before he was saved he did what he did with a clean conscience and even did them in the name of God, but when he actually met God he said "who are you lord?"... on the raod to damascus. man that will preach... hehe.
this time of struggling was not before he actually met God.
and it was not after he was set free because he said thing that bound him was "the law of sin and death in his members"
and in romans 8 first off he says "i have been set free from the law of sin and death"
i dont believe paul was saying that he was bound to live in sin, subject to the apetites of our flesh.
becuase this defeats much of his teaching when he said that
"how can we who are dead to sin live in sin anylonger?"
"do not let sin reighn in your mortal bodies"
"sin shall not have dominion over you"
"awake to righteousness and sin not"
"what then? shall we sin becuase we are under grace and not under the law? God forbid!"
paul atleast taught that christians were not to be controlled by sin, this would be meaningless if he also taught that he himself was controlled by sin.
i believe there is a glorious freedom available to christians who are willing to believe, and who are willing to conform even the most secret and personal areas of their lives to the hand of God and allow him to chart the paths of our lives, and allow him to fill us with his holiness birthing power that will enable us to follow on these paths.
i am glad to fellowship with you, i hope my beliefs do not offend you, but this is what i believe untill God or a servant of God shows me diffrent, i hope we can continue in friendly conversation.
lee myers.
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endure, Now, that there was an elaborate response! I will not even attempt to delve into the various tangents that are available therein. Suffice it to say that I have a handle on were you are and was not offended by what you offered.
I am not your teacher and you are not my student AND you are not my teacher and I am not my student. We have the Holy Spirit to lead us . So, if I treat you as I wish to be treated and you treat me as you wish to be treated I believe a fellowship can be maintained.
Finding a single scripture passage that deals with the concepts of free-will and predestination, side-by-side or hand-in-hand, is a task I have not accomplished. The will of man and the predestination of God are concepts that seem to stand alone from each other throughout the whole of scripture and never do the two connect. Comparing mans free-will to Gods free-will or mans predestination to Gods predestination makes some degree of sense to me. Its just one of those little quirks I just cant seem to shake .. hope you know want I mean.
Maybe a clear answer to the question, Just how sovereign is God? would be of benefit to all in understanding some of complexities in the interplay of God with man and vice versa.
by any and all means press on!
Maranatha
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