Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is not an option

[rockytopva]

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

Believing in the Pre-Trib rapture theory is not an option for us... It is a command! We must be ready for Christ to come any day! As if it is an imminent thing! Christ then goes on to say that this event will happen as in the days of Lot and the days of Noah!

Unexpected!
No warnings!
As a thief!
In times not looked for!

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

 

[John Hyperspace]

Unexpected!
No warnings!
As a thief!
In times not looked for!

You don't realize that all of those things describe the second advent? Also, you're quoting Revelation 16:15 which is between the 6th and 7th vials. Are you suggesting the "pre-trib rapture"(increasingly painful to type those words) doesn't happen until right before the 7th and final vial is poured?

 

[rockytopva]

You don't realize that all of those things describe the second advent? Also, you're quoting Revelation 16:15 which is between the 6th and 7th vials. Are you suggesting the "pre-trib rapture"(increasingly painful to type those words) doesn't happen until right before the 7th and final vial is poured?

Then Christ's coming is not as a thief! If this event were after tribulation then it would be rather well announced! And plus... If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years... How is it post trib as we will already be on earth???

 

[miamited]

Hi rockytopva,

I honestly have no understanding of how you feel that any of the Scriptural references you give allow some understanding of 'when' the rapture will happen. As your references do make clear, we don't know when Jesus will return as to any exact date or month or such, but we should see the signs and, as the Scriptures do tell us, know that he is standing at the door. Ready to return.

Personally, I find that the Scriptures teach that the rapture comes after the days of great tribulation. But, even then, we don't have any idea how soon or long after the days of the great tribulation have begun that Jesus will actually step out to bring all of those who are his to safety. However, the sign of the great tribulation should definitely put us on our toes that it likely won't be too long after its beginning. I would guess possibly within the decade of its beginning. But, let me be clear that is only a guess.

There is, I believe, a good book to read called 'The Sign' by Robert Van Kampen that uses the solid foundation of the Scriptures to point out all the many references contained within its pages that indicate that the rapture would come after the great tribulation. If you'd care to investigate the other side of the argument, I'd recommend it.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[John Hyperspace]

Then Christ's coming is not as a thief! If this event were after tribulation then it would be rather well announced!

I believe it could be the case that virtually everything men have taught you about the Revelation could be completely wrong, and the events you expect to see aren't going to happen at all. That what the media feeds people about biblical prophecy is distortion of truth, and as such, they won't even know the "tribulation" when they're right in the middle of it. Much like it happened to the Jews of the first coming, they had been taught a carnal understanding of spiritual things, and so completely were unaware that they were in the middle of the first coming; things have a way of repeating in scripture.

But, again, the death blow to "pre-trib rapture" is that it isn't even in the scripture at all. It could very well be part of the "strong delusion": I would ask you to provide one, single verse teaching "Christ will come half way and remove Christians from the world to avoid tribulation, then return again later" but I know all you are going to do is point at verses that say "guard you" and "escape" and "shall be taken" and say "See? 'Guard' 'Escape' 'Taken' all of these words clearly teach that Christ will come half way and remove Christians from the world, and return again later" and all manner of plain bad reasoning.

And plus... If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years... How is it post trib as we will already be on earth???

I don't see any passage saying what you're saying. I do see a passage saying that, some Christians will be "alive and remaining" at the parousia, and that Jesus will bring "them that sleep" back with Him when He comes: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[rockytopva]

Hi rockytopva,

I honestly have no understanding of how you feel that any of the Scriptural references you give allow some understanding of 'when' the rapture will happen. As your references do make clear, we don't know when Jesus will return as to any exact date or month or such, but we should see the signs and, as the Scriptures do tell us, know that he is standing at the door. Ready to return.

Personally, I find that the Scriptures teach that the rapture comes after the days of great tribulation. But, even then, we don't have any idea how soon or long after the days of the great tribulation have begun that Jesus will actually step out to bring all of those who are his to safety. However, the sign of the great tribulation should definitely put us on our toes that it likely won't be too long after its beginning. I would guess possibly within the decade of its beginning. But, let me be clear that is only a guess.

There is, I believe, a good book to read called 'The Sign' by Robert Van Kampen that uses the solid foundation of the Scriptures to point out all the many references contained within its pages that indicate that the rapture would come after the great tribulation. If you'd care to investigate the other side of the argument, I'd recommend it.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. - Revelation 22:20

I remember growing up of Baptist conventions and Pentecostal revivals. All of which were pre-trib. The woman of those conventions looked like angels and the men looked like gentleman. They were pure people and very beautiful to behold. I hold on to pre-trib beliefs because it is a purity of the church. Those who have this hope in them live better lives than those who don't.

 

[miamited]

Hi rockytopva,

That's fine, just so long as you understand, when discussing with others, that this is not any Scriptural mandate but merely your belief that those who live according to such a belief have a better lifestyle -- according to your measuring rod.

Personally, I find such an idea nearly impossible to believe. That those who believe in pre-trib rapture are somehow more refined and 'the women of such belief look like angels and the men more gentlemanly'. It sounds suspiciously to me like you're allowing your prejudices to color your perception of such men and women.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[rockytopva]

Then Christ comes not as a thief! If this is not pre-trib then it does not happen liken the days of Noah and Lot. Then no need also to remember Lot's wife!

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife. - Luke 17

 

[tulc]

If you just always do what you're supposed to do what difference does it matter when or if there's a rapture?
tulc(is just curious)

 

[rockytopva]

If you just always do what you're supposed to do what difference does it matter when or if there's a rapture?
tulc(is just curious)

True...

 

[pat34lee]

Then Christ's coming is not as a thief! If this event were after tribulation then it would be rather well announced! And plus... If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years... How is it post trib as we will already be on earth???

You could know the month or week and still not know the hour or the day. We should at least know the season, as Yeshua said. Matthew 24 gives an overall timeline of events. The so-called rapture is near the end.

 

[miamited]

HI pat,

This is exactly what I'm attempting to show rockytopva. Just because the rapture would come after the great tribulation still gives us no indication of what day, week, month or even year that the Lord might return. She seems to think that such an idea would mean that we know the rapture's going to end in March of 2042 and Jesus is then going to return on April 1 of 2042. Or that there will be some hue and cry 6 months before the great tribulation will end, although I don't think it will end except that Jesus returns, "The tribulation is going to end in 6 months. The tribulation is going to end in 6 months." This would somehow mean that when that hue and cry goes up that there's some indication then that Jesus will return in 6 months and a day.

All I understand from the Scriptures is that the great tribulation will come upon the saints before Jesus returns. How long after the great tribulation begins until Jesus' return is still not any clearer because of this understanding than it was to the believers in the first century than it is to us today. It's merely that Jesus' return happens sometime after the great tribulation comes upon the saints.

Hence, I recommended that she pick up a copy of 'The Sign' just to get some understanding of all the Scriptural references that do seem to point to Jesus return after the great tribulation. Sadly, and I'm likely as guilty as anyone else, we get stuck on theological teachings that we hear and often just take such teachings at face value without ever really having checked them out against the whole of the Scriptures.

It is this understanding of some length of time after Jesus' return when we then move into the tribulation which is the basis of the 'Left Behind' series. However, in the Revelation chapter 14, as we divide the Scriptures, we are given a narrative of the return of the Lord and it would seem that fairly quickly after Jesus removes from the earth those who are his, that the second angel comes and throws those who remain into the wine press of God's wrath. This idea that after Jesus' return there will be days of tribulation in which other people will come to know God's salvation certainly isn't shown in this passage of the Revelation.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Big Drew]

Overly simplified, but I recall what one of my old pastors used to say, "You can't have a testimony without a test." Tribulation being the greatest test of all, for those that go through it...In my studies of the scriptures I have seen nothing that points to a pre-trib rapture. And, I've tried...the first study bible I ever owned was a Scofield KJV...the original pre-trib handbook...but, it never jibed with scripture to me...don't get me wrong, if the end times happens during my lifetime, I'd love nothing more than for the dispensationalists to be correct on this, and not have to suffer through the tribulation...but, unfortunately, I just don't see it being the case.

And, as someone pointed out earlier in the thread...if we're walking in God's will...what difference does it make?

 

[miamited]

Then Christ's coming is not as a thief! If this event were after tribulation then it would be rather well announced! And plus... If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years... How is it post trib as we will already be on earth???

Good morning rockytopva,

The Lord's return, as far as it's going to happen, has been well announced now for some 2,000 years. I honestly don't understand how you are rationalizing that just because the event comes after the tribulation begins, that such a timeline means that we then know the day or hour that he will return. As the Scriptures tell us and as pat has pointed out, all we will know is the season. We will know that all the things that the Scriptures tell us will precede the Lord's return are now done and someday, hopefully soon, the Lord will return to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth.

As to your second point. When the second angel comes, he throws all those who remain into the winepress of God's wrath. Now, that is not some instantaneous and immediate event. If we read of the bowl judgments that God is going to pour upon the heads of those who remain, these judgments will likely cover a period of time. Be it a week or a month or two, the bowl judgments will befall man and as each bowl of God's wrath is poured out those left upon the earth will have time to suffer them.

So, the scenario is like this: the great tribulation comes upon the earth. Some point after this great tribulation begins, Jesus returns to collect his. Very shortly after Jesus comes to collect his, the second angel gathers all those who remain to stand under God's wrathful judgment against them. The culmination of God's wrathful judgment will bring about the death of all those who remained which is when the blood will reach the height of a horse's bridle. Then, after all the remaining wicked have suffered God's wrath and been removed through death from the earth, Jesus returns with his and begins his 1000 year reign. Then, after the 1000 year reign, everyone is raised to life again, Satan is released from his prison one last time to deceive and destroy and, without knowing any specific amount of time lapse, God begins His final judgment upon all men. After this, the die is cast. Every human being who has ever lived will be set in their proper place and a great chasm will be affixed between the two places. Never again shall any wicked, idolatrous, sexually immoral, greedy liar set foot in God's kingdom. In God's kingdom, those whose names were found written in the Lamb's book of life will live with God and He will be their God and they will be His people.

As I understand the Scriptures, that seems to be pretty much the chronological order of the 'last days' events.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[sdowney717]

Then Christ comes not as a thief! If this is not pre-trib then it does not happen liken the days of Noah and Lot. Then no need also to remember Lot's wife!

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife. - Luke 17

It comes as a thief on the world.
Not in the same idea for His people.
His people are expecting and longing for His returning.
Jesus said when you see those things coming, then He is near to returning. Mark 13:28-29.

Here in verse 4 and 5, clearly says we are not in darkness and that day will not come on us as a thief in the night as it does for the world when they say peace and safety.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10New King James Version (NKJV)
The Day of the Lord
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Luke 21, verse 35 Jesus tells us His returning comes as a snare for all those who dwell over the face of the entire earth. So Jesus here is describing the second coming, not Jerusalem's destruction.

The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[rockytopva]

Christ warns in Matthew 24 and Luke 12 that he comes as a thief, as in normal everyday times such as Noah and Lot, and for us to watch. If we are obedient to his word and are found watching...

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him (the pre-trib believe who was obedient and watched) ruler over all that he hath. - Luke 12

I say! It is the will of Christ for us not to know the hour in which he comes, and for we servants to be found watching. If we are found watching it will bode well and blessed with us.

But what happens to those who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture? What happens to the servant who has figured out that Christ's return is not imminent and refuses to watch for it?

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. - Luke 12

It is the will of God for we servants to be obedient and live our lives so that we expect the Lord's coming as in any day!

 

[Another Lazarus]

Amen,

Foolish virgins shall be leftbehind and wail !!

Matt 25 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Nations shall WAIL when they see Jesus because they shall be leftbehind.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him

 

[REBEL CRUSADER]

Then Christ's coming is not as a thief! If this event were after tribulation then it would be rather well announced! And plus... If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years... How is it post trib as we will already be on earth???

There is no 1.5 coming making the 2nd coming really the 3rd coming. Christ is not as a thief to the believer. He's as a thief to those that don't believe in Him or His 2nd coming. "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." - 1 Thessalonians 5. The rapture comes at the end of the tribulation. We get beamed up, then God fires the torpedoes. The smoke clears and we reign with Him for a 1000 years on the earth.

Christ lays the tribulation and the rapture all out in chronological order throughout all of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:29 Christ tells you directly when the rapture takes place.

29 “Immediately AFTER the distress (tribulation) of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 “THEN will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And THEN all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[rockytopva]

There is no 1.5 coming making the 2nd coming really the 3rd coming. Christ is not as a thief to the believer. He's as a thief to those that don't believe in Him or His 2nd coming. "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." - 1 Thessalonians 5. The rapture comes at the end of the tribulation. We get beamed up, then God fires the torpedoes. The smoke clears and we reign with Him for a 1000 years on the earth.

Christ lays the tribulation and the rapture all out in chronological order throughout all of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:29 Christ tells you directly when the rapture takes place.

29 “Immediately AFTER the distress (tribulation) of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 “THEN will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And THEN all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

How are we going to return to reign with Christ when we are already here? How does Christ come as a thief post trib?

 

[REBEL CRUSADER]

How are we going to return to reign with Christ when we are already here? How does Christ come as a thief post trib?

How does Christ come as a thief post trib?

I already told you.

He's going to be like a thief only to the non believer. He can't sneak up on you like a thief. You're on watch. You're keeping an eye out. You know he's coming. And you know the season in which he comes. You are not going to be surprised when he shows up.


How are we going to return to reign with Christ when we are already here?

Again, I already told you.

He takes us up (probably in the new Jerusalem that will probably be orbiting the earth at this time) at the end of the Tribulation. He then reigns fire and brimstone on the earth, and when the smoke clears, we make our landing. May only take an hour or so.