Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

Bible2 · May 21, 2009

HisdaughterJen posted in message #771 of this thread:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be
able to stand?

Joe 2:31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into
blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

While Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 could be the same event, both
involving the darkening of the sun and the reddening of the moon,
and both occurring sometime before the day of the Lord, the rest of
the tribulation (Revelation chapters 8-18) will also occur before the
day of the Lord.

The people quoted in Revelation 6:17 who say that the sixth seal
is the great day of God's wrath could be just as mistaken as Job
was when he said Job 19:11, thinking that what was happening to
him was God's wrath instead of Satan's wrath. The great day of
God's wrath may not come until the day of the Lord, which will begin
at the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), when Jesus will bring
God's post-tribulation wrath upon the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Bible2 · May 21, 2009

HisdaughterJen posted in message #788 of this thread:

Looking back in history, when did that "not one stone left on another"
happen?

"There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not
be thrown down" (Matthew 24:2). This hasn't happened yet. The
stones of the Wailing Wall still stand one stone upon another, and
the Wailing Wall was part of the temple complex at the time Jesus
spoke Matthew 24:2. The day is coming when not only the Wailing
Wall, but the entire city of Jerusalem will be laid low, so that there
will not be one stone upon another within Jerusalem: "and they shall
not leave in thee one stone upon another" (Luke 19:44).

Bible2 · May 21, 2009

HisdaughterJen posted in message #790 of this thread:

Rev 11:1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go
and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the
worshipers there.

Rev 11:2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it
has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city
for 42 months.

Someone smarter than me is going to have to tell me why there are
worshipers in the temple and the altar but the Gentiles are in the
outer court, trampling Jerusalem in this passage.

Not everything in Revelation 11:1-2 happens at the same time. The
ultra-Orthodox Jews will demolish the Dome of the Rock on the
Temple Mount in Jerusalem and build a Jewish temple with an outer
court. They will re-start the daily Mosaic sacrifices, and have a false
ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" leading them. When the Antichrist
(who could be an Arab) subsequently comes on the scene, he will
defeat this false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" and then "cut" a
seven-year treaty (covenant) with him, as shown in Daniel 9:26-27.
This is also shown in Daniel 11:22-23, where the Antichrist defeats
a false "prince of the covenant" (a false Messiah of the Mosaic
covenant) and then makes a "league" with him. This league/treaty/
covenant will permit the ultra-Orthodox Jews to keep their temple
and perform their daily Mosaic sacrifices for at least seven more
years, on the condition that they give up the outer court of the
temple to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can worship in the Al-
Aqsa Mosque at the southern end of the Temple Mount.

The latter part of Revelation 11:2 refers to two or three years later,
when the Antichrist will break the treaty, stop the sacrifices (Daniel
9:27b), attack the temple (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and sit
in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:36, 2 Thessalonians
2:4). He will then rule the world for 42 months (Revelation 13:5),
during which time the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem, as shown in
both Revelation 11:2b and Luke 21:24.

zeke37 · May 21, 2009

Bible2 said:
While Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 could be the same event, both
involving the darkening of the sun and the reddening of the moon,
and both occurring sometime before the day of the Lord, the rest of
the tribulation (Revelation chapters 8-18) will also occur before the
day of the Lord.

The people quoted in Revelation 6:17 who say that the sixth seal
is the great day of God's wrath could be just as mistaken as Job
was when he said Job 19:11, thinking that what was happening to
him was God's wrath instead of Satan's wrath. The great day of
God's wrath may not come until the day of the Lord, which will begin
at the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), when Jesus will bring
God's post-tribulation wrath upon the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

we basically agree...

interesting note:

Satan's appearance will immulate that of Christ's preceived appearance...

Satan's coming (earlier than Christ's), will also include a darkening of the sun and moon....not to the same extent that the Lord will cause, but still...it will fool most people....

ps. I do not believe this to be a literal darkening...

get it right · May 21, 2009

zeke37:
Satan's appearance will immulate that of Christ's preceived appearance...

Satan's coming (earlier than Christ's), will also include a darkening of the sun and moon....not to the same extent that the Lord will cause, but still...it will fool most people....

Not at all bibical,
Christ comes on the clouds in full glory
satan does not come on clouds, he is thrown down to earth like lightning, and is unaware of where he is for a while.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

satan does not come with the trump of God

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

.no glory there

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

he dosn't even know where he is for a time, let alone pretending to be christ,
Christ's coming and satans casting down are not alike in the slightest, your doctrine is anti bibical.No serious bible student could be fooled.

Hismessenger · May 21, 2009

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The saints are still hear during the reign of the beast according to the scripture above

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

This is the people of the prince who is to come.

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].

This is the deceit of the covenant.He is the one who makes a false covenant with the people to deceive them into allowing him access to the sanctuary

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If your words line up with His words, then you are justified, but if your words say other than his words, then you are condemned. If you speak the oracles of God, you can't help but be justified for His word proclaims it.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

But if you teach the doctrine of men;

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Hear the scripture and heed their warnings, not my words.

himessener

get it right · May 22, 2009

Hismessenger said:
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The saints are still hear during the reign of the beast according to the scripture above

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

This is the people of the prince who is to come.

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].

This is the deceit of the covenant.He is the one who makes a false covenant with the people to deceive them into allowing him access to the sanctuary

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If your words line up with His words, then you are justified, but if your words say other than his words, then you are condemned. If you speak the oracles of God, you can't help but be justified for His word proclaims it.

Click to expand...

Then go to Him in repentance and sin no more.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

But if you teach the doctrine of men;

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Hear the scripture and heed their warnings, not my words.

himessener

....

Hismessenger · May 22, 2009

Did not my words come from the scripture? Where did I sin Get It Right. I didn't give my opinion but related the word. You choose to attack me rather than hear the words for they say something other than what you believe.

hismessenger

get it right · May 22, 2009

Hismessenger said:
Did not my words come from the scripture? Where did I sin Get It Right. I didn't give my opinion but related the word. You choose to attack me rather than hear the words for they say something other than what you believe.

hismessenger

hm:

but if your words say other than his words, then you are condemned.

Hismessenger · May 23, 2009

You accuse but your accusation has no foundation. I posted the scripture, not my opinion as some so many others do with assumptions and nothing to back that assumption up.

hismessenger

get it right · May 23, 2009

Hismessenger said:
You accuse but your accusation has no foundation. I posted the scripture, not my opinion as some so many others do with assumptions and nothing to back that assumption up.

hismessenger

hm:
but if your words say other than his words, then you are condemned.

Hismessenger · May 23, 2009

Show me where my words say other than His words. They say other than your words but they speak the oracles of God, not man.

hismessenger

get it right · May 23, 2009

Hismessenger said:
Show me where my words say other than His words. They say other than your words but they speak the oracles of God, not man.

hismessenger

hm:

that is not the bride but angels and beasts.

Rev 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Hismessenger · May 23, 2009

Resoting to posting from your imagination now.

I never said this in this manner

that is not the bride but angels and beasts.

I said that you made an assumption that the armies coming with Him were the raptured church when in truth you have angels and elders and beasts who are around the throne. If you see those beasts as anything other than what they are said to be then you truly have no understanding of what you are talking about. There are more beings in heaven than just the church.

Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind. Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine. Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

And then you have those who are dead before the tribulation and those who die in the tribulation that don't have to be raptured to get into heaven. Can you tell many what that number may be. Thewy are there before the tribulation begins

So your asumption is just that. The army could be made up of all these beings and the church be waiting on the earth for the redemption which is promised to come.

Here is another dilemma for you to side step because you can't give a solid answer to what is said.

Tick Tick tick

hismessenger

get it right · May 24, 2009

Hismessenger said:
Resoting to posting from your imagination now.

I never said this in this manner

I said that you made an assumption that the armies coming with Him were the raptured church when in truth you have angels and elders and beasts who are around the throne. If you see those beasts as anything other than what they are said to be then you truly have no understanding of what you are talking about.

ha ha ha

There are more beings in heaven than just the church.

The church is not yet in heaven hm.

And then you have those who are dead before the tribulation and those who die in the tribulation that don't have to be raptured to get into heaven. Can you tell many what that number may be. Thewy are there before the tribulation begins

So your asumption is just that. The army could be made up of all these beings and the church be waiting on the earth for the redemption which is promised to come.

Scriptures I posted are not assumption, they say what is, which you reject, and not what could be, which is what you say.

Here is another dilemma for you to side step because you can't give a solid answer to what is said.

The scriptures I gave are very solid.
Rev 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
These are the bride, the verses say so, you say no that's angels and beasts.
Tick Tick tick

hismessenger

Are you aware that most of your posts are just to attack?

As I said yesterday I won't be debating you anymore because it's a waste of time, but I will occasionally show you up for accusing, name calling and lies, which is only right I think.

Hismessenger · May 24, 2009

The church is not yet in heaven hm.

Then where are they?

According to what you said there is no one in heaven but the angels and the beasts. So how are they the armies coming with Him if they are not yet in heaven.

hismessenger

HisdaughterJen · May 24, 2009

Hismessenger said:
Then where are they?

According to what you said there is no one in heaven but the angels and the beasts. So how are they the armies coming with Him if they are not yet in heaven.

hismessenger

The answer to that question is the answer to this question:
Where does our spirit reside when it leaves our bodies?

It is my understanding that the spirits of the righteous reside in Paradise which is part of Hades, isn't it?

Hismessenger · May 24, 2009

Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were], was completed.

hismessenger

get it right · May 24, 2009

So how are they the armies coming with Him if they are not yet in heaven.

Because the rapture has not yet occured, when it does then the bride will be in Heaven with Him for a time, before following Jesus to earth to do battle with satan and his armies, then the first resurrection.
Read Rev 19 & 20.

zeke37 · May 24, 2009

get it right said:
zeke37:
Satan's appearance will immulate that of Christ's preceived appearance...

Satan's coming (earlier than Christ's), will also include a darkening of the sun and moon....not to the same extent that the Lord will cause, but still...it will fool most people....

Not at all bibical,

I guess my asking you not to say things like that went unheard...or unacted upon....because one views the scripture in a different way, does not mean that their view is unbiblical....if they are a Christian, then chances are they BELIEVE the scripture, as you do...but interpret It another way. It may just be YOU that is incorrect on YOUR view....it doesn't have to be me or anyone else....you can be wrong.

later in this post I will detail why such a belief is biblical

Christ comes on the clouds in full glory

Click to expand...

satan does not come on clouds, he is thrown down to earth like lightning, and is unaware of where he is for a while.

while Satan's coming is described in more than one way, he will come here to earth with his angels...his multitude, Rev9, Rev12....(Heb12:1 shows that cloud(s) can indeed mean multitude)

you think that he will not know where he is for a while, but that is just not so....his realization, is immediate....as in, when the lightning hits the ground....a split second....he fights Michale and looses, is forsed out of heaven.....he knows it......

infact, the first 1/2 of the tribulation is when his spiritually lead children(men) set up the Babylon political beast(NWO)....when it is set up, and when it fails from peace into a brink of WW3....that is when he is cast out of heaven....saving the system with his arrival, as the world thinks he is Jesus come to save them.

you are having a slight problem interpreting some symbolic usage.

we can learn of his accomplishments in many places, like in Rev13:11f where he is called the FALSE LAMB....and convinces the world to worship him....by way of lies (from the dragon's mouth)

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Click to expand...

satan does not come with the trump of God

well, I did not claim that he does...to say so is a lie...

he is cast from heaven IMO told to us many times...1,2,3,4, 5, 6th trumps for example. Christ comes at the 7th trump, after that time..., which is when the Gathering (rapture=seizing) is. 1Thes4:13-f, 1Cor15:51-f..post trib

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

.no glory there

I never said that there was glory with him, although there is certainly perceived glory...many Christians will THINK he is Christ....(which is why pre trib is so dangerous a belief to have....teaching that Christ comes first to rapture you, when the Bible says the opposite....and says that Satan comes first to tempt you....to deceive you and be worshiped as God.

Rev6 shows the first rider to be a fake "toxon"(bow) of the real....a cheap imitation...knock-off.

and the trumps (to me) represent Satan...all of them.

I am quite willing to entertain other opinions on the trumps and their meanings, so anyone feel free...I'd like to stick to the first 4 trumps for now though...if anyone cares to respond....Perhaps the first 4 are detailing Babylon (the beast system)...

the use of 1/3 references Satan in Rev12....but here is Rev8's 1-4 trumps.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. (men and angels are referenced as trees sometimes in prophesy)

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; (Babylon rising out of the water (people of the world)

9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; (possibly Satan himself cast here as in Rev12)

11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. (spiritual death)

12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Click to expand...

he dosn't even know where he is for a time, let alone pretending to be christ,

that is just not so....when he saw...is an English translation of the Greek...

example....I open my door, and I see it is a nice day....

so, from a writing perspective.......when I saw the nice day, I was glad.

it was an immediate thing though...as it is with the gladness of seeing a nice day....

it is not like he was knocked out and has to gain his senses...wobbly or something...no.

he comes here, with his many angels..... to fool you, part of God's plan to refine as many as need it....even the ones that claim to love Him. many while loving Him, need refinement....living Him instead of talking about it.

Christ's coming and satans casting down are not alike in the slightest, your doctrine is anti bibical.No serious bible student could be fooled.[/quote]

lol, thanks for the compliment. such contempt about a subject that you think you won't even be here for anyway....lol. Christ gave us a warning and said that we are blessed to know read it, yet you MUST think that this book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John, was not even for Christians.....'cause logically, we'd be gone if it is pre trib...what would be the need?.....lol.

Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

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