Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Hismessenger]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
​

The proof is in the text. These are the army which comes with Christ to gather the remaining church from the earth. They are not raptured but those who remain alive at his coming will be as given by the scripture above from 1 Thess.

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
​

Not raptured but asleep/dead in Christ. If the whole text was taken in it's proper context, we would not even have this thread to contend with. The rapture is at the last day for nowhere does it speak of a rapture before the tribulation as professed. Only someones speculation with out definite proof texts to back it up.

Truth wins.

hismessenger

 

[get it right]

Those asleep/dead in Christ is His army. ha

But when they are glorified and caught up with those still alive, then the bride becomes His army.

 

[get it right]

satan does not come with the trump of God

well, I did not claim that he does...to say so is a lie...


Why the paranoia, my statement shows just one diffrence to the coming of Christ and satan being thrown down.



Rev6 shows the first rider to be a fake "toxon"(bow) of the real....a cheap imitation...knock-off.


Rev 6 does not show the first rider to be a fake or imitation, (unless the first rider is christianity, some of them immitate Christ) Rev 6 shows the first rider to have a toxon-bow, not to be one.

 

[Hismessenger]

Those asleep/dead in Christ is His army. ha

But when they are glorified and caught up with those still alive, then the bride becomes His army.

You scoff at the word;

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

They truly are the ones who come with Him. Is that not what the word says? Or do you know better? I thought that you went by the word but I see it is only when it goes along with what you believe. Ha

Tick tick tick

NLT - 1Th 4:14 - For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died.

Maybe this will make it clear.

hismessenger

 

[get it right]

You scoff at the word

I certinally do not.

Tick tick tick

That must mean something in your mind, but that's okay, keep it to yourself.


hismessenger

As I reckon many would tell you hm, you know little of his Word.

 

[Hismessenger]

Get it Right,

I post more word and understanding than you do, All you do is express your opinion when you can't answer what's posted, Just like now. The scripture shows what you have said to be in error, first, about who the army is which comes with him and then the timing of the rapture which coincides with this coming.Continue to deny the scriptures for your own understanding. Truth has already won!

hismessenger

 

[get it right]

Get it Right,

I post more word and understanding than you do, All you do is express your opinion when you can't answer what's posted, Just like now. The scripture shows what you have said to be in error, first, about who the army is which comes with him and then the timing of the rapture which coincides with this coming.Continue to deny the scriptures for your own understanding. Truth has already won!

hismessenger

Truth has won, and when I post scriptures you can't see it.

The scripture dosn't show I'm in error about the armies being the bride, read it slowly and stop with the lies.

Rev 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

As can be seen here this coming does not coincide with the rapture, as the bride already has it's glorified bodies, raptured earlier.

Clearly the armies mentioned in Rev 19 is the bride of Christ.
You take away bride and add beasts and angels.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Just reminding you again.

 

[Hismessenger]

Are not the beasts and angels part of the heavenly host, Get it right. And do they not already dwell in the heavens Get it Right, And does not the word say that God will bring with Him those who are asleep in Him Get it right.
Your problem is that to accept theses truth would mean that you would have to make a paradigm shift away from your professed understanding to another understanding which doesn't go along with what you want to believe.
Did not the the four beasts come to earth in the book of Ezekiel. They are called living creatures which when you compare the positioning of them to God in Rev, these living creatures operate in the same venue in Ezekiel.
So whether you want to accept the truth or not doesn't change the fact that it is still truth.

Deal with the scriptures Get it Right for they speak the oracles of God in more ways than just one understanding. If you don't accept the fact that there are dead Churches members already in heaven now, then there is no need to even discuss anything else with you until you do.

hismessenger

 

[get it right]

Are not the beasts and angels part of the heavenly host, Get it right. And do they not already dwell in the heavens Get it Right,

That has nothing to do with The armies coming with Christ in Rev 19.

And does not the word say that God will bring with Him those who are asleep in Him Get it right.

It does for the rapture 1Thess 4, not for His return with His armies, who are glorified, and not asleep rev 19.
This is really kid's stuff but you cannot see it.

Your problem is that to accept theses truth would mean that you would have to make a paradigm shift away from your professed understanding to another understanding which doesn't go along with what you want to believe.

Continual lying accusations shows ones spirit.

Did not the the four beasts come to earth in the book of Ezekiel. They are called living creatures which when you compare the positioning of them to God in Rev, these living creatures operate in the same venue in Ezekiel.

We havn't been discussing beasts of Ezekial or Rev, but the armies of Rev 19 which is clearly the bride, so you go all over the place to not address Rev 19. Your own words are about you, below.
hm:

Your problem is that to accept theses truth would mean that you would have to make a paradigm shift away from your professed understanding to another understanding which doesn't go along with what you want to believe.

So whether you want to accept the truth or not doesn't change the fact that it is still truth.



Deal with the scriptures Get it Right for they speak the oracles of God in more ways than just one understanding. If you don't accept the fact that there are dead Churches members already in heaven now, then there is no need to even discuss anything else with you until you do.

hismessenger

Of course there are those who have died in christ somewhere, whether it's in heaven or not is debatable, and I certinally would not debate it with you, because you do have problems with understanding, not only what some say but scripture as well.

 

[get it right]

Get it Right,

I post more word and understanding than you do,



All you do is express your opinion when you can't answer what's posted, Just like now.

I have posted much scripture to show what I say, why the continual lying.

The scripture shows what you have said to be in error, first, about who the army is which comes with him

I have said exactly as the scripture says, the armies in Rev 19 is the glorified bride that's what is said in Rev 19, you take the bride out of Rev 19 and add angels and beasts which are not there. And which I warn you about once more as it seems to matter not to you what God say's here:
Revelation 22:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

and then the timing of the rapture which coincides with this coming.Continue to deny the scriptures for your own understanding.

Once again why the continual lying accusations.

Truth has already won!

hismessenger

It has but it seems you are unaware of that.

 

[zeke37]

well, I did not claim that he does...to say so is a lie...


Why the paranoia, my statement shows just one diffrence to the coming of Christ and satan being thrown down.



Rev6 shows the first rider to be a fake "toxon"(bow) of the real....a cheap imitation...knock-off.


Rev 6 does not show the first rider to be a fake or imitation, (unless the first rider is christianity, some of them immitate Christ) Rev 6 shows the first rider to have a toxon-bow, not to be one.

Christ has an AURA....a beautiful Glorified presence (aura or rain"bow") that is so beautiful that I bet John could not adequately describe It.

this first rider of Rev6 has a BOW too, but his is a fake of the real...an immitation of cheap material....unlike the true Christ's aura or Bow, which is increadible and CANNOT BE MISTAKEN...


the warning is not to believe the first one....his appearance is a fake immitation of the Real....but many will.

 

[Hismessenger]

Get It Right, there isn't one verse in Rev. 19 which says that the army which comes with Christ is the raptured church. Perhaps you can show some scripture which states that fact if it be so or else stop with your opinions and look at the scripture for what it says, not what you add to it to make it seem like you are RIGHT, Get It Right. The other scripture which you post also do not prove that it is the raptured church. I've already proved that there are already saints in heaven but it can't be them according to Get It Right. God has to rapture more saints from earth so that he can bring them back to earth to do battle. What a crock. I am truly amazed that you would even put forth such a doctrine which is in no way scriptural.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

It does for the rapture 1Thess 4, not for His return with His armies, who are glorified, and not asleep rev 19.
This is really kid's stuff but you cannot see it.

You can't prove that from scripture so how do you back it up.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Just reminding you again.

Looks like you should read that over again a few times and maybe there will come some comprehension as to what it doesn't say. He doesn't have to rapture the church to have an army from the church because you have church members already in heaven. That includes the disciples, prophets and all the saved since time began which also includes Enoch and Elijah. How it is figured that he has to rapture more church to have this army is beyond what is written. I think I gave you those scriptures once before. Don't add to scripture what you can't confirm. Opinion won't do it and that's all that you have. What of those under the altar. More obstacles for you to run in to with no answer. Saints in the millennium, Saints under the altar. Saints on earth after the tribulation. You haven't given an answer to any one of those scripture. And you say it's really kid stuff and I can't see it. Ha, tick tick tick tick tick.

hismessenger

 

[get it right]

Get It Right, there isn't one verse in Rev. 19 which says that the army which comes with Christ is the raptured church.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

To say this is not the bride as you do often, is to reject these scriptures.
You take away Christs bride from these verses and add angels and beasts which are not in these verses.
I will warn you again to start believing what scriptures say and not add not take away from what is said there.
Rev 22: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Perhaps you can show some scripture which states that fact if it be so or else stop with your opinions and look at the scripture for what it says, not what you add to it to make it seem like you are RIGHT, Get It Right.

You seem unable - not caring to get away from lying.

The other scripture which you post also do not prove that it is the raptured church. I've already proved that there are already saints in heaven but it can't be them according to Get It Right. God has to rapture more saints from earth so that he can bring them back to earth to do battle. What a crock. I am truly amazed that you would even put forth such a doctrine which is in no way scriptural.

hismessenger

How many times have I stated with scriptures, beliefs of pre trib and you still don't know what I have said and post back confusion as above.

 

[get it right]

Looks like you should read that over again a few times and maybe there will come some comprehension as to what it doesn't say. He doesn't have to rapture the church to have an army from the church because you have church members already in heaven. That includes the disciples, prophets and all the saved since time began which also includes Enoch and Elijah. How it is figured that he has to rapture more church to have this army is beyond what is written. I think I gave you those scriptures once before. Don't add to scripture what you can't confirm.

Better than that, I don't add anything to scripture.

Opinion won't do it and that's all that you have.

Can you not get away from a lying spirit, scriptures I post far out number my opinions.

What of those under the altar. More obstacles for you to run in to with no answer. Saints in the millennium, Saints under the altar. Saints on earth after the tribulation. You haven't given an answer to any one of those
scripture.

Lies, lies and more lies. I agree with all scripture, I din't agree with much of your interpertations of them.

And you say it's really kid stuff and I can't see it. Ha, tick tick tick tick tick.

hismessenger

Yes I did say that.

 

[Hismessenger]

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

THAT VERSE DOESN'T SAY IT IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH AS DOESN'T THE REST OF THE VERSES YOU POSTED.


the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

IT SAYS THAT THE CHURCH IS READY TO BE GATHERED AND FOR THIS HE BRINGS AN ARMY WITH HIM. IT DOESN'T IDENTIFY WHETHER THEY ARE RAPTURED OR JUST THOSE WHO ARE ASLEEP IN CHRIST. GOD SAID THEY WILL COME WITH HIM WHO ARE ASLEEP. YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT BUT YOU ACCUSE ME OF NOT ADHEREING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN. YOU ON THE OTHER HAND CLAIM TO KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT IT IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH EVEN WHEN SCRIPTURES SAY IT IS THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP WHICH COME WITH HIM. GOD BREATHED WORD.

hismessenger

 

[get it right]

Rev6 shows the first rider to be a fake "toxon"(bow) of the real....a cheap imitation...knock-off.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
There is nothing about fake in this verse, and nothing about imitation.

Bow
G5115
τόξον
toxon
tox'-on
From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): - bow.

G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.


Fabric:
framework; structure: the fabric of society.
a building; edifice.
the method of construction.
the act of constructing, esp. of a church building.
the maintenance of such a building.
Petrography. the spatial arrangement and orientation of the constituents of a rock.

So this rider has a bow made from the simplest fabric, not metal, perhaps a limb of a tree or a stick - sapling growing out of the ground.

It is not Christ, because of the simple bow and the simple crown.
It is possibly the church as HdJ say's.



Christ has an AURA....a beautiful Glorified presence (aura or rain"bow") that is so beautiful that I bet John could not adequately describe It.

I'm not aware of scripture saying Christ has a rainbow, bow and rainbow also are not the same thing, bow is mentioned but not rainbow.

this first rider of Rev6 has a BOW too, but his is a fake of the real...an immitation of cheap material....unlike the true Christ's aura or Bow, which is increadible and CANNOT BE MISTAKEN...

The verses do not say the first rider is a fake or imitation of Christ.


the warning is not to believe the first one....his appearance is a fake immitation of the Real....but many will.

Sorry but there is no such warning.

And Christ's appearance certinally is awesome:
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

That is why He will come for His bride in the dense dark clouds of Heaven, else no flesh and blood eye could look on him.

 

[zeke37]

toxon=cheap fabric immitation...of the simplest kind...the Strong's was revised..the older hardcopy says just that.

it is not a weapon, but a bow of apparent material....he has a bow of fabric (his appearanc/glory) but it is not like that of the Real Messiah's Glody/apparel/appearance...Christ's clothes (what are they made up of ??)righteousness........the first rider's bow is a fake....a knock off...no trademark....the false lamb who comes first to deceive you. false righteousness.

 

[zeke37]

as for the clouds...Paul uses clouds to represent a large mass mmultitude...in Heb12. I am sure that you do not deny this

Christ likewise returns with a large mass multitude in Rev19.

when Christ comes, it is for every eye to see...After the trib of that time...as the Gospels says, and then...they shall see the sign of the Son of Man.





no, Christ's coming is not hidden...every eye shall see....that is the point. He will not be hidden in the clouds...and besides when Christ does come here, according top 1Cor15's mystery change, all flesh is changed to spirit bodies (as those in heaven have)anyway, for the entire Millennium....so there is no need to hide in the clouds for cover...



but a large mass multitude of believers coming with Him...well that lines up perfectly with the Gospels, 1Thes4:13f and 1:Cor15:51f...as well as Rev19:10f.

this is all the same post trib rapture...

 

[get it right]

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

THAT VERSE DOESN'T SAY IT IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH AS DOESN'T THE REST OF THE VERSES YOU POSTED.


the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

IT SAYS THAT THE CHURCH IS READY TO BE GATHERED AND FOR THIS HE BRINGS AN ARMY WITH HIM. IT DOESN'T IDENTIFY WHETHER THEY ARE RAPTURED OR JUST THOSE WHO ARE ASLEEP IN CHRIST.

Those asleep in Christ are hardly an army, and the ones who come with Christ here have their glorified bodies, they are the raptured bride.

GOD SAID THEY WILL COME WITH HIM WHO ARE ASLEEP. YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT
That part's a lie.

God does say that for the rapture 1Thess 4, not in Rev 19 where the coming is just prior to the first resurrection.

BUT YOU ACCUSE ME OF NOT ADHEREING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN.

I certinall do. here you are rejecting what the scriptures say once again.

YOU ON THE OTHER HAND CLAIM TO KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT IT IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH

In Rev 19, yes I do.

EVEN WHEN SCRIPTURES SAY IT IS THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP WHICH COME WITH HIM.

No it's not the dead in christ coming with Him for the rapture in Rev 19.
That's 1 Thess. 4

GOD BREATHED WORD.

hismessenger

Those seemingly confused words you have spoken are certinally not:
GOD BREATHED WORD.

The bride has made herself ready, they are in Heaven in fine linen white and clean, the armies follow Christ out of heaven in fine linen white and clean, but reject what Rev 19 say's all you want to, you have been showed enough.