Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[HisdaughterJen]

I DO see this. I always have. Either you aren't explaining yourself well, or making it more confusing then it needs to be.

Yes, I know this also.

I can see that in Rev chapter 9 because it talks about the angel of the bottomless pit, but it doesn't mention the devil in 7 or 8 that I can see. I know that he is still on earth right up until Christ binds him for 1000 years during the millinnium, so yes, he is on earth. Once again, no clear reasoning for you even mentioning this. You will post a lot of scripture like yesterday with no explanation of referring to what or why. If you would cut that out and get right to the heart of the matter, understanding would be so much clearer.

Because Daniel 9 is the key. Matthew and Mark wouldn't have stated "as told by the prophet Daniel..whoso readeth let him understand". Well, I understand, and evidently you don't at this point. Daniel wouldn't have stated this unless it was to "continue" in the future, because this hasn't happened yet...Dan 9:24 ~ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish ( it had already started) the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. This happens ONLY during the reign of the beast when they recognize that Christ is their true Messiah. Read Luke 21 and it may become clearer to you regarding "not one stone left upon another," although it is almost like Matt 24. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD may have be the beginning of the "transgression," but it isn't finished until the abomination of desolation and the desolations on Israel during the trib which afterwards Christ dwells with them.
I understand it just fine.

Well, hopefully when people read this that they can see that you are out in left field. Most Christians that I know in real life and on here believe that the beast reigns during the tribulation as I do. You are part of a small minority that doesn't believe this. I will go with what the bible shows me, and not what you DON"T see....YET.

Good advice. Hopefully you are going to take it.

Ok, Nana....I'll ask this same question more than one way: tell me what the Bible says happens in the 7th seal after the sun/moon darken/Day of Wrath begins (6th seal). What happens after the sun/moon darken when the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins until Jesus comes on the clouds?

6th seal = sun/moon darken, Day of Wrath begins
7th seal = ??? (What happens?????)
THEN Christ comes on the clouds.

What happens during the 7th seal?...(between the sun/moon darkening and Christ coming on the clouds.)

Here's a hint: It's described from Rev 8 through Rev 19.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Ok, Nana....I'll ask this same question more than one way: tell me what the Bible says happens in the 7th seal after the sun/moon darken/Day of Wrath begins (6th seal). What happens after the sun/moon darken when the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins until Jesus comes on the clouds?

6th seal = sun/moon darken, Day of Wrath begins
7th seal = ??? (What happens?????)
THEN Christ comes on the clouds.

What happens during the 7th seal?...(between the sun/moon darkening and Christ coming on the clouds.)

Here's a hint: It's described from Rev 8 through Rev 19.

Get to the point Jen. I'm not going through the bible all the way up to Rev 19!!! A lot happens between the 7th seal and Rev 19. I have things to do today, so lets cut to the chase here okay?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Get to the point Jen. I'm not going through the bible all the way up to Rev 19!!! A lot happens between the 7th seal and Rev 19. I have things to do today, so lets cut to the chase here okay?

The 7th seal is what happens between the 6th seal (sun/moon darkening/Day of Wrath beginning) and Christ coming on the clouds.

The 7th seal is the trumpets and the bowls:

Trumpet #1 = hail fire blood burns 1/3 of grass and trees (also is what falls on gog. 144,000 of Israel sealed before this trumpet)
Trumpet #2 = star into sea, 1/3 of sea to blood
Trumpet #3 = waters turn bitter
Trumpet #4 = 1/3 without light
Trumpet #5 = beast/locusts out of abyss by devil who is given key (man of sin takes authority, beginning of 42 months)
Trumpet #6 = beasts armies kill 1/3 of mankind

Bowl #1 = sores on people who took mark
Bowl #2 = freshwater to blood
Bowl #3 = sea to blood
Bowl #4 = sun scorches
Bowl #5 = darkness
Bowl #6 = devil/beasts gather armies of the world to fight against Christ as he comes

Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 = thunder, lightning, hail, earthquake

Then Christ comes.


The beast is reigning on the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord which started when the sun/moon darken immediately AFTER the tribulation that started with the abomination of desolation of Jerusalem.


The 7th seal is between the sun/moon darkening and the coming of Christ on the clouds. It is a bit longer than 42 months...(probably 1335 days (Daniel 12) which will begin with the 5th seal and end on the Day of Atonement. (my speculation))

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

The 7th seal is what happens between the 6th seal (sun/moon darkening/Day of Wrath beginning) and Christ coming on the clouds.
The 7th seal is the trumpets and the bowls:

Trumpet #1 = hail fire blood burns 1/3 of grass and trees (also is what falls on gog. 144,000 of Israel sealed before this trumpet)
Trumpet #2 = star into sea, 1/3 of sea to blood
Trumpet #3 = waters turn bitter
Trumpet #4 = 1/3 without light
Trumpet #5 = beast/locusts out of abyss by devil who is given key (man of sin takes authority, beginning of 42 months)
Trumpet #6 = beasts armies kill 1/3 of mankind

Bowl #1 = sores on people who took mark
Bowl #2 = freshwater to blood
Bowl #3 = sea to blood
Bowl #4 = sun scorches
Bowl #5 = darkness
Bowl #6 = devil/beasts gather armies of the world to fight against Christ as he comes

Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 = thunder, lightning, hail, earthquake

Then Christ comes.

Anyone can run through the sequence of Revelation and still not totally understand it. Christ comes when the 7th trumpet is sounded, that is the main thing to know.

The beast is reigning on the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord which started when the sun/moon darken immediately AFTER the tribulation that started with the abomination of desolation of Jerusalem.

This I partially disagree with. It is possible that the desolations on Israel began with the destruction of the old Jewish temple, but it is not the abomination of desolation no way no how!!! This Josephus fella that you mentioned previously might have been a good man and recorded the destruction of the temple in AD70, but that book is not in our bibles just like Enoch isn't. What you are doing is adding to the Word of God by utilizing the word of men not inspired by the Holy Ghost who wrote the bible through CHOSEN men. You are walking on dangerous ground Jen. It is another attempt of Satan attempting to outwit God and Gods people!! It isn't going to happen with me for sure!!

The 7th seal is between the sun/moon darkening and the coming of Christ on the clouds. It is a bit longer than 42 months...(probably 1335 days (Daniel 12) which will begin with the 5th seal and end on the Day of Atonement. (my speculation))

I have a question for you? Are you looking at this in the aspect of Christ coming back at the 7th trumpet with the church or with the angels? Makes a BIG difference on where you are coming from.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone can run through the sequence of Revelation and still not totally understand it. Christ comes when the 7th trumpet is sounded, that is the main thing to know.

Interesting that neither Mark, Luke or John mentions "trumpet"

Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His Messengers with a Trumpet/salpiggoV <4536> sound/voice/fwnhV <5456>, great and they shall be together-gathering the Out-Called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them. [Revelation 8:6]

Revelation 10:7 But in the Days of the sound/voice/fwnhV <5456> of the seventh Messenger whenever He may be being about to be Trumpeting/salpizein <4537> (5721) also is finish the Mystery of the God as He brings Well-Message to His bond-servants the prophets

Trumpet mentioned 11 times. Matt 6:2, 24:31, 1 Corin 14:8, 1 Corin 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16, Hebrew 12:19, Reve 1:10, Reve 4:1, Reve 8:2, 6, 13, Reve 9:14

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Interesting that neither Mark, Luke or John mentions "trumpet"

Yes, but Matthew 24:31 does. I guess God figured once was enough in the 4 gospels lol.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, but Matthew 24:31 does. I guess God figured once was enough in the 4 gospels lol.[/font]

Yepperz. Matthew is also the only Gospel writer to mention "parousia" but to make sure the Jews knew He meant business, He mentioned 4 times.

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-finish of the Age" [Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]

Matthew 24:27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from east, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;

Matthew 24:37 For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man/anqrwpou <444> ;

Matthew 24:39 and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Anyone can run through the sequence of Revelation and still not totally understand it. Christ comes when the 7th trumpet is sounded, that is the main thing to know.

Yes, Christ comes on the clouds after all the bowls and trumpets (7th seal) have all been poured out AFTER the sun/moon darken(6th seal) which is immediately AFTER the "tribulation" (seals 1-4).

This I partially disagree with. It is possible that the desolations on Israel began with the destruction of the old Jewish temple, but it is not the abomination of desolation no way no how!!!

Ok, so you say "no way, no how" to the desolation of Jerusalem/temple in regards that being the "abomination of desolation"....so, then, why didn't Jesus answer the disciples question about when "not one stone will be left on another" would happen in that passage? That's how the whole conversation started...

Mat 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


What verse shows Jesus answering that particular question about the "not one stone left on another"???????

Looking back in history, when did that "not one stone left on another" happen?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

[/font]

Yes, Christ comes on the clouds after all the bowls and trumpets (7th seal) have all been poured out AFTER the sun/moon darken(6th seal) which is immediately AFTER the "tribulation" (seals 1-4).



Ok, so you say "no way, no how" to the desolation of Jerusalem/temple in regards that being the "abomination of desolation"....so, then, why didn't Jesus answer the disciples question about when "not one stone will be left on another" would happen in that passage? That's how the whole conversation started...

Mat 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


What verse shows Jesus answering that particular question about the "not one stone left on another"???????

Looking back in history, when did that "not one stone left on another" happen?

If you will notice right after Jesus said that, the diciple asked Jesus, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming? Then Jesus lists all of the things in Matthew 24 that are going to happen prior to His return. One thing that He doesn't mention is Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, but Luke 21:24 does, and lists some of the other things that Jesus said in Matthew 24. It's not in Mark or John either. This is one reason that we have to search and study the bible as a whole because some parts that are missing in one book are in another, like the trumpet in Matthew, but not in Mark, Luke and John.
Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled isn't completed yet as we know, as salvation is still happening to the Gentiles and Christ hasn't turned to Israel yet, they are still blinded. This verse is the trodden down by Gentiles in Rev 11:2~ But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (trodden down) forty and two months. This is during the beast reign..42 months.
I am leaning toward the AD70 destruction as when Israels time clock started for the "transgression" to have started, but it finishes with the abomination of desolation and them going through the tribulation..Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:26-27 ~ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince ( the beast armies as Messiah is cut off)that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ...beast reign.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

If you will notice right after Jesus said that, the diciple asked Jesus, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming? Then Jesus lists all of the things in Matthew 24 that are going to happen prior to His return. One thing that He doesn't mention is Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, but Luke 21:24 does, and lists some of the other things that Jesus said in Matthew 24. It's not in Mark or John either. This is one reason that we have to search and study the bible as a whole because some parts that are missing in one book are in another, like the trumpet in Matthew, but not in Mark, Luke and John.
Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled isn't completed yet as we know, as salvation is still happening to the Gentiles and Christ hasn't turned to Israel yet, they are still blinded. This verse is the trodden down by Gentiles in Rev 11:2~ But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (trodden down) forty and two months. This is during the beast reign..42 months.
I am leaning toward the AD70 destruction as when Israels time clock started for the "transgression" to have started, but it finishes with the abomination of desolation and them going through the tribulation..Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:26-27 ~ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince ( the beast armies as Messiah is cut off)that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ...beast reign.

I think the strongest piece of Scriptural evidence you have ever given is the Rev 11 verse about the Gentiles in comparison with Luke 21. I believe that Rev 11 is during the reign of the beast, as you do.

In Daniel 9:26-27, the city and the sanctuary are destroyed.

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] (city/sanctuary?) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.




Rev 11:1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.

Rev 11:2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.


Someone smarter than me is going to have to tell me why there are worshipers in the temple and the altar but the Gentiles are in the outer court, trampling Jerusalem in this passage.

I don't see anything about a destruction of the city/temple like in Daniel 9 but certainly a "trampling" of Jerusalem.

Zech 14 comes to mind...

Zec 14:2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Past or future? It would have to be future, wouldn't it, since "all nations" are gathered against Jerusalem and the Lord is the one that fights against those nations.
"All nations" could refer to the anti-christ or it could refer to gog. I don't think it refers to Rome because God didn't step in and save them from the Romans who actually destroyed the temple and the city.
Come to think of it, God doesn't step in and save them from the beasts armies either until the 42 months are over.
It sounds a lot like gog, the more I read because of the confusion and plundering, plague and earthquake.

Hmmm...I'll have to talk all of this over with God for awhile.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I think the strongest piece of Scriptural evidence you have ever given is the Rev 11 verse about the Gentiles in comparison with Luke 21. I believe that Rev 11 is during the reign of the beast, as you do.

Thank you, but I have to give the Holy Spirit credit for that one

Someone smarter than me is going to have to tell me why there are worshipers in the temple and the altar but the Gentiles are in the outer court, trampling Jerusalem in this passage.

God is smarter then both of us. Try this on for size. The beast is already sitting in that temple with his worshippers since his armies are treading the outter court? The bible calls it the temple of God in that passage.. I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there, but it also says this in 2 Thess 2:4 ~ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Bible2]

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.


31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other

this is the 144,000 and the gentiles that get saved during the Great Trib

Greetings.

Matthew 24:30-31 is 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

1 cor 15:23-24 states three different resurrections afterwards in
chapter 15 it states that different forms of glory determined by the
Lord

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 says the resurrection of the church will be at
the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16, Revelation 20:4-6),
which Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:7-21 show will be after
the tribulation.

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

we have antichrist right now... what you are discribing is the BEAST

The beast (Revelation 13:4-18) is the antichrist who "shall come"
(1 John 2:18). Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple
of John; Irenaeus refers to "the number of the name of the beast ...
the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1); "when this Antichrist
shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three
years and six months [Revelation 13:5], and sit in the temple at
Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b); "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul]
says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped [2 Thessalonians 2:4]'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5).

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

oriential wedding
#1 the church is bethotal ... 2 cor 11:2
#2 Wedding party... Groom getting bride... Rapture... rev 4, 1 thes 4:16
#3 Wedding feast.. rev 19:9

Nothing in Revelation 4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, or in "oriental wedding"
refers to the groom getting the bride before the tribulation, because
Jesus won't marry the church until Revelation 19:7, at his second
coming, after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. The wedding
feast (Revelation 19:9) will be on the earth and in connecttion with the
resurrection of the church at the second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9,
1 Corinthians 15:54).

 

[Bible2]

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

The blessed hope is eternal life (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7).

we have it right now 1 john 5:11-13
OT saint have to wait till after the 2nd coming dan 12:2,11-12

We have eternal life spiritually now (1 John 5:11), but not yet
physically. The blessed hope is physical eternal life (Titus 1:2, 2:13,
3:7). "Hope" means we don't have it yet (Romans 8:23-25).

The former OT saints are now NT saints: after his resurrection Jesus
preached the NT gospel to them in Hades (1 Peter 3:19, 4:6) and
they became part of the church and were drawn up into heaven
(Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-23). At Jesus' second coming,
they'll come back with Jesus from heaven along with the rest of the
dead church to be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16).

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

the reason for Jacob trouble... mean Jews trouble... not the church

Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) is only a final attack on the Jews in
Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before the second
coming (Zechariah 14:2-5). The tribulation will include both Jewish
and Gentiles Christians (Revelation 7:9,14), and there are no
Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

Gal 3:28 Jew and gentile no more in the body of Christ..

Galatians 3:28 means that there is no distinction between Jews
and Gentiles in the church with regard to their being saved; but
there are still Jews in the church (Acts 22:3) and Gentiles in the
church (Romans 16:4).

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

phil 3:20-21 Heavens are home

Philippians 3:20 means that our citizenship is in New Jerusalem
(Galatians 4:26), which is now in heaven (Hebrews 12:22). We go
into heaven now when we die (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians
1:21,23). But during the millennium the resurrected church will be
on the earth with Jesus (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6). And
after the millennium and subsesequent events, New Jerusalem will
descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

Jews home is on earth.. Matt 5:5

Matthew 5:5 applies to all Christians, not just Jewish Christians.

 

[Bible2]

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

please.... stop ...To Matt 13:21 ... Matt 24:21, To Matt 24:9-10 ...
1 thes 5:1-3 , to 1 pt 4:12-13 ... james 1:2-12 notice Joy in vs 2
then earning a crown in vs 12 connect this verse to rev 4:4
completion

Matthew 13:21 refers to some Christians becoming "offended" by
having to go through tribulation. Matthew 24:21 refers to the
endtime tribulation, in which some Christians will become "offended"
about having to go through it (Matthew 24:9-13).

1 Thessalonians 5:2 refers to Jesus' post-trib coming as a thief
(Revelation 16:15, 19:7-21).

1 Peter 4:12-13 means that we will be partakers of Christ's
sufferings during the endtime tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4) before his glory is revealed after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31).

Just as we can have joy in temptations (James 1:2), so we can
have joy in tribulation (Romans 12:12).

That the church will receive crowns (James 1:12) doesn't require
that the crowned 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) are the church, just as
it doesn't require that the crowned Satan (Revelation 12:3) or the
crowned demonic locusts (Revelation 9:7) are the church. The 24
elders could be angels in heaven.

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

2 cor 5:21 ... since we believe we are Christ Body ... Jesus is the Head
grace

Jesus will still judge his body, the church (2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke
12:47-48).

A Brother In Christ posted in message #318 of this thread:

Please go to graceteaching.com

order the book about grace

order the book .... read it and quote it ... And I will send you the money
to repay you

The Bible teaches about grace, and shows that it doesn't mean that
we can commit sin without repentance and expect to remain saved,
for that is doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:26-29,
cf. 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51).

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #593 of this thread:

The church is the restrainer and the man of sin cannot be revealed
until we are gone.

Greetings.

The church can't be the one restraining the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) because the church will still be on the earth
during the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4), and because Jesus cannot come and gather together (rapture)
the church until sometime after the Antichrist commits the
abomination of desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, cf. Daniel 11:31,36,
Matthew 24:15,30-31). The restrainer of the Antichrist could be a
powerful angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at the second
coming (Revelation 20:1-3).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #593 of this thread:

We are the white-robed great multitude of Rev 7 who has come out
of great tribulation (seals 1-4) and are dwelling in heaven

Those in Revelation 7:9,14-15 are that part of the church which will
die during only the first stage of the tribulation, seals two through
six of the chapter just prior (Revelation 6:3-14). Their death will
bring their souls into heaven, just as whenever Christians die their
souls go into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians
1:21,23). The robes worn by their souls are literal, like the literal
robe worn by the soul of the dead Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:14.

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #608 of this thread:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless
the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of
destruction,

2 Thessalonians 2:3 says that a "falling away (apostasia)", an
apostasy, a departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), has to occur
sometime before Jesus comes to gather together (rapture) the church
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #670 of this thread:

No wonder you can't see that the gathering to Christ is a departure
from the earth!

The Bible doesn't say that the church's gathering together (rapture)
to Christ at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31)
is a departure from the earth, for the church will never be removed
from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20). Instead, the Bible
says that the rapture will take the church only as high as the clouds
to meet Jesus in the sky on his way down to the earth at his second
coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Once the church has been raptured
into the clouds, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark
13:27) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds,
before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from
the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he brings
God's wrath upon the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #733 of this thread:

The ten days of Rev 2....

Rev 2:10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you,
the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will
suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of
death, and I will give you the crown of life.

....is referring to the 42 months that the devil is allowed to imprison
and kill "the rest of her offspring", those "who follow the
commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus", the "saints".
There is a call for patient endurance during this time. These verses
are mentioned in Rev 12, 13, 15, and resurrection/judgment of those
people is in Rev 20.

The ten days of Revelation 2:10 refer to ten literal days which
occurred back in the first century. Revelation chapters 2-3 is
addressing seven first-century local church congregations in the
Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

Just as those killed in Revelation 2:10 were part of the Church, so
those who will be killed in Revelation 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4
will be part of the Church, for they have faith in Jesus (Revelation
14:12), and everyone who has faith in Jesus is part of the Church
(Ephesians 4:4-5).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #733 of this thread:

I just happen to notice that Daniel 12 refers to a resurrection and
judgment as well as says, "blessed are they that wait for and reach
the end of the 1335 days". Why are they blessed? What happens at
the end of the 1335 days?

Daniel 12:11-12 could mean that Jesus will return on the 1,335th day
after the abomination of desolation, and blessed are those in the
church who wait for that day (Revelation 16:15). The abomination
of desolation is when the Antichrist will take over a Jewish temple and
sit in it and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15,
2 Thessalonians 2:4). The blessing of Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation
16:15 applies to those in the church who will still be alive on the earth
near the end of the tribulation (during the tribulation vials of wrath of
Revelation 16), still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation
16:15), his second coming, which doesn't occur until Revelation
19:7-21, after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation
chapters 6-18.

HisdaughterJen posted in message #733 of this thread:

I don't know what the extra 75 days are for...yet.

The Antichrist will reign for 42 months (Revelation 13:5), or 1,260
days (Revelation 12:6), after which the seventh trumpet of the
tribulation will announce the legal end of his reign (Revelation 11:15).
Out of the temple-opening of the seventh trumpet could come the
seven plagues of the seven vials of wrath (Revelation 11:19, 15:5-
16:1). The first six vials could last 30 days, bringing us to the 1,290th
day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11). At that point
a blessing will be given to those in the church who are still alive on
the earth, encouraging them to hold on just 45 more days, until Jesus'
return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel
12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). The 45 days between the sixth vial (on
the 1,290th day) and the second coming (on the 1,335th day) could
be taken up with the gathering together of all of the armies of the
world to Armageddon in an attempt to battle against YHWH (Revelation
16:14,16, 19:19-21).

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #747 of this thread:

Compare Rev 6 to Matt 24. See what happens before the sun/moon
darken and what happens after. Then you'll see the order of events.

Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 are two different events,
Revelation 6:12 occurs at one point during only the first stage of the
tribulation, while Matthew 24:29 occurs after the tribulation. Revelation
6:12 involves the temporary darkening of the sun and the reddening of
the moon, while Matthew 24:29 involves the temporary darkening of
both the sun and the moon. Christ does not come on the clouds with
his angels at the time of Revelation 6:12, but Christ does come on the
clouds with his angels at the time of Matthew 24:29: he comes on the
clouds in Matthew 24:30, and then he sends forth his angels to gather
together the church in Matthew 24:31 (the same coming and gathering
together as 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #762 of this thread:

The reign of the devil is ON the Day of the Lord

The Lord alone will be exalted in the day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:11),
so the day of the Antichrist, when everyone will exalt the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:8), will not be the day of the Lord. The day of the
Lord won't begin until the second coming of Jesus Christ
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7-21,
after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18.
When Jesus comes to gather together (rapture, Matthew 24:31) and
marry the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #762 of this thread:

Luk 21:24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to
all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the
times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 will happen during the reign of the Antichrist, when
Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles for 42 months
(Revelation 11:2b, cf. 13:5b).