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The underline problem is communicating with the dead. It should be obvious.
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No the verse concerning necromancy mentions the use of a medium or witchcraft. So prayers don’t fall into that category. The definition of mediator and intercession are different. A mediator is someone who intercedes in an argument or dispute for reconciliation. Intercession is someone who intervened on someone else’s behalf. Not necessarily for reconciliation.
Exodus 20 says this
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Isaiah 8
19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Which is why there is no "communion with the DEAD" in the Bible
Do you define "Protestantism" on the basis of "Once saved..."
One might trace this as following from Calvin's double-predestination & the total depravity of man.....but Luther didn't hold to it.
Is not the essence of Protestantism in the "Protest" at The Catholic Church and the substitution of its Apostolic-Authority & Ecclesiology, with the Solas (which vary in number)
The supposed new authority was "Scripture Alone".
But I believe this was only tenable for Luther whilst he believed "everybody would see it his way."
But "scripture alone" turned out to be a figleaf for what the ego of every reader could find in it.
The result is Protestant Babel.
What specific restrictions are you referring to? This sounds like something that someone totally made up.Were that true the RCC would have no restrictions on "praying to the living".
That's it? You don't see anyone doing it in the bible? Where in the world do you get the loony idea that we can't do anything unless someone in the bible did it? What ever happened to Christian freedom? - no: as a "bible only" kind of guy, if you want to claim that something is wrong to do you need to show where it's forbidden in the bible. And you can't show that asking our brethren in heaven for their prayers is forbidden in the bible, because it's not there. It's a false tradition of men.-- what is more no body does this in the Bible when it comes to praying to the dead.
What specific restrictions are you referring to? This sounds like something that someone totally made up.
That's it? You don't see anyone doing it in the bible? Where in the world do you get the loony idea that we can't do anything unless someone in the bible did it? What ever happened to Christian freedom? - no, if you want to claim that something is wrong to do you need to show where it's forbidden in the bible. And you can't show that asking our brethren in heaven for their prayers is forbidden in the bible, because it's not there. It's a false tradition of men.
Also - you're saying that those who are alive in Christ are actually dead? That there is death in heaven, in the very presence of God? Really? That's absurd, it's completely anti-biblical and heretical thing to say.
Then there is no reason to pray to her if she is not in any way a mediator.
Worship is giving glory to God, no? Do we not give God glory by praying to Him?
See, I do not pray to my brother who is alive. Why would I do that if he were to die?
It would be turning him into God.
The safer play is to pray directly to the Lord Jesus Christ (Which is what Scripture shows us).
I said to you that it is CLOSE to necromancy. Yet, "spiritualism" which is a general term for communicating with the dead is associated with mediums, and necromancy, etc.
Catholics teach Mary is co-redeemer along with Christ.
In Matthew 11:11 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
Now, according to Jesus, who is the greatest?
Is it Mary? No. It is John the Baptist who is the greatest.
Okay. You say she is a queen. You have a rosary and hail Marys. You have statues of her everywhere and we see many Catholics bow down to statues of her. Come on now. Who are ya kidding?
I remember when I was a kid. I remember talking with a childhood friend of mine who said he prayed to Mary and it was so good. I told him to pray only to God. This was long before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. But I knew enough about prayer in my liberal Christian home to know that you pray to God alone. I told him to pray to God. But he didn't want to do that. Mary was more effective for him in his prayers. So yes. Mary can take the place of God. Don't kid yourself.
Here is a rather lengthy article I wrote on this one.
A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!
Sola Scriptura is the position that you can trust Scripture and Scripture alone as your sole authority for your faith and life. That the revelation known as the Bible can be trusted as your final word of authority for knowing God, salvation, true love, right living, and truth. Now, while there may be other books, letters, or epistles mentioned in Scripture that we don't have currently, they are not a part of the cannon of God's Word today, for there is no other written texts or revelations that is needed besides the Bible for all spiritual matters. For the Bible is unlike any other book in human history. It is clearly a book that is divine in origin that is backed up by many evidences in Science and History.
Now, some might object and point out that you can't prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture because such a position wouldn't have existed until the close of Revelation because the apostles were still speaking and writing the Word of God. However, that is not Sola Scriptura, though. Sola Scriptura is putting your faith in the written Word of God and believing it is suffient for all matters concerning one's faith in God. But what about the spoken Word of God? Does that not conflict with Sola Scriptura? No. First, the spoken Word of God was confirmed by the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). Second, one truth (the Spoken Word of God) was not in conflict with another truth (i.e. the Written Word of God). They both breathed in harmony until one passed away. In other words, picture it in your mind that there are two branches or sticks. One branch represents the Spoken Word and the other branch represents the Written Word. Now imagine one of those branches starting to vanish away out of thin air until it is gone. Is the one branch that remains any different just because the other branch is gone? Yeah, but wouldn't Sola Scriptura only exist until after the close of Revelation with Revelation 22:18-19 because you can't add anymore words to God's Word? No. This is not an exclusive teaching within Scripture; For the Bible teaches elsewhere that we are not to add to the written Word of God, too (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Deuteronomy 12:32) (Proverbs 30:5-6).
Anyways, the purpose of this study is to provide passages to help the reader in possessing Scripture so that they can trust in one divinely inspired written revelation or book (i.e. the Bible) for all spiritual matters in regards to having love, faith, and salvation in Him.
Also, before we examine this study, it is important to note that there are 3 major Words spoken about within Scripture that are connected to one another. There is the:
(1) Living Word of God (Jesus),
(2) Spoken Word of God (Either from God or His people),
(3) Written Word of God (Scripture).
All three are perfect and will endure for forever.
All three are tied together and are always connected.
The Biblical Case for Sola Scriptura:
I. All Scripture is Profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Righteous Teaching.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
A. All Scripture is profitable:
(a) for doctrine, (because)
~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).
(b) for correction (and)
(c) for instruction in righteousness,
(It is sufficient in righteous training because):
~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalms 119:11)
All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:
(d) May be perfect.
(e) Completely furnished unto all good works.
~ (1) For speaking Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)
(In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)
All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect andcomplete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in (1) doctrine, (2)correction, and (3) training in righteousness. All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to beperfect and completeunto all good works. Not some good works. But allgood works. No oral Words of God alone were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.
For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?
II. Do Not Add or Take Away or Go Beyond What is Written:
A. Do Not Add or Take Away From God's Word -
Revelation 22:18-19
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Before you say it, yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking in context of the book of Revelation. However, we have to think about this logically, though. If you can't add any words to the book of Revelation, then you can't add any words to the Bible, too. Why? Well, the book of Revelation is the end of the Bible. It is the close of the whole book known as the Bible. It is the end. This is why I believe Revelation 22:18-19 is prophetic in the fact that it has a secondary fulfillment of speaking about "this book" in reference to "Revelation" in being a part of the book known as the Bible. How so? Well, there are several passages that have a double fulfillment to them. Here is one them:
Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
First Fulfillment (That was in the Past):
Reference to the exodus of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.
Secondary Fulfillment (That was in the Future):
Reference to the Love of God calling his Son back to the comparative safety in Egypt so that he might die for his people. Matthew 2:15 - "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."
Also, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus gives His assessment of various churches. In these chapters, Jesus spoke of real churches that existed at the time when John written the book of Revelation, but also to the spiritual state of churches thru out time and today, too. For one of the churches is told to repent or they will go thru the tribulation. For obviously there has been Luke warm churches thru out history and today like the Laodician church.
Besides, there are hundreds of double fulfillment passages in the Bible. How so? Well, the "Typifications of Christ" in the Old Testament are essentially double fulfillment type passages (See this forum thread here to check them out). In fact, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). In other words, the OT Scriptures are a double fulfilment. For the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of the events of it's time and they also spoke about Jesus Christ, too; For Jesus said so Himself.
Also, consider the prophecy in the book of Daniel which was to seal up vision and prophecy versus the prophecy of the book of Revelation which is not sealed.
~ Daniel's End Times prophecy speaks of the events in Revelation. These prophecies of the End Times (that were in a book, i.e. scroll) were to be sealed up and closed (Daniel 12:4) because they were a far way off because Jesus still needed to come to save His people from their sins.
Revelation 22:10 mentions the spirit of prophecy that the book is open.
~ Now, the book is open whereby the things within Revelation (That Daniel also talks about) is exposed so that it will be fulfilled in bringing in the End with Christ's return.
For the entire book of Revelation is about the End Times leading up to Christ's return.
For the end of Revelation closes with Jesus saying,
"Surely I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20).
This means that we should be looking to Jesus return and not some new Revelation.
Paul said if we or an angel from heaven preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8). It is strange that both the Mormon and the Muslim religion are founded on a revelation that comes from angels. Yet the Bible warns against this very thing.
In fact, Jesus Christ commanded that we as believers were to preach this gospel unto all the world (or all nations) until Christ's return.
Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
This is also what we see in Revelation. For this same gospel message was still going out to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (That is still an ongoing process today).
Revelation 14:6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
In other words, God knew that the book of Revelation was going to be a part of the Bible. For surely God does not want us accepting new revelations or additional written works to add to the Bible like with the book of Mormon, the Koran, the added oral traditions of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church), and or the added writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For it is not a coincidence that this warning in Revelation 22 is at the close of our Bibles. In other words, the new reader (Who is unaware that the Bible is made up of 66 books) would understand that you are not to add or subtract from the book (i.e. the Bible) that they were reading. For God obviously intended Scripture to be compiled into one book known as the Bible. For Christians today do regard the Bible as one book, for it is published as one book and it is not generally published into 66 individual books or a 66 book volume set. There are no 66 individual old manuscripts in their original form anymore; And God does not exist in the past abiding with these old manuscripts. These manuscripts are dead and gone. For they were written in a language that is dead. All these things are in the past. However, our God is not a God who just exists in the past. Our God is present and ever active with His people today. For our God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He works with His people who are alive with the written Revelation known as the Bible. Adding any new words to that revelation would be adding to God's Holy written Word as it currently exists with His people who live today.
B. Warning Against Altering God's Word is Confirmed in Old Testament:
Forbidding in altering God's Word in Revelation 22:18-19 can also be seen in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 which says not to add or take away from the words of God's commands. This was the written Word. The Law. God did not want His words being changed or altered in any way by adding or taking away from His words. In fact, if somebody were to try and destroy God's Word, we see that God would protect or preserve His Word. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 36:22-32where king Jehoiakim burns the scroll in a fire (i.e. to eliminate God's Word) and then later God has Jeremiah re-create another roll that says the same thing. In other words, the written Word could not be destroyed by fire, just as the Living Word cannot be destroyed by fire. For the fourth who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends was the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). For even when Moses had broken or shattered the tablets of stone that had the direct hand written Word of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) on it (Exodus 32:19), the Lord our God had hand written them down on tablets of stone again (Exodus 34:1). For the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35). For Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35). Meaning, that Christ's words would be memorialized by being written down where they would not pass away (or be deleted by men).
C. Do Not Go Above What is Written on how we think about men:
The Bible says we are not to go above that which is written (concerning our thoughts of men). Granted, this verse is not all inclusive to the fact that we are not to go above Scripture on other matters, but what this passage does is show us a pattern that Scripture and Scripture alone is our sole authority on the faith and spiritual matters. It confirms that we are not to add or take away from God's Word.
1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."
III. Scripture Can Help us to Know the Certainty of Christ's Teachings.
Luke sets out an order of declaration amongst the ministers of the Word to write out the events in order to Theophilus so that he might know for certain of the truth (on Christ's teachings) which he had been instructed.
Luke 1:1-4
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."
IV. Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:
In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the armor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, Ephesians 6:16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).
V. Spoken Word is confirmed by the Written Word. Acts 17:11
In Acts 17:11, we learn that the Bereans were more noble because they received the "Spoken Word of God" from Paul and Silas with an open mind but yet they searched the Scriptures (i.e. the Written Word of God) to see whether those things were so or not. So the "Spoken Word" is confirmed by the "Written Word." So the "Written Word" is a reliable authority that we can trust. For even Philip opened the heart of the Ethiopian’s understanding from a reading in Isaiah (Thereby confirming the Written Word of God) (Acts 8:26-35). Jesus had opened the disciple's understanding on the Scriptures when He was with them (Luke 24:32); And Paul had told the Corinthians that their words that they speak in Christ (i.e. the Spoken Word of God) were not like as with many others who had corrupted the Word of God (i.e. the Written Word of God) (2 Corinthians 2:17).
VI. 1 Corinthians 14:37 - What Paul had written is the Lord's commandments.
Paul had written to the Corinthians about how if anyone thought of themselves as spiritual or a prophet, they were to know that what he had written unto them was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In other words, the "Written of God" that came from Paul was the Lord's Commandments; And by the authority of the Lord: Paul gave commands to the brethren in doing many things (1 Corinthians 7:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6, 12) (1 Timothy 4:11) (1 Timothy 6:11, 12, 13, 14).
VII. The spoken/written Word is standard by which Jesus will Judge All Men.
John 12:48 essentially says, Christ will judge us by His Word in the last day.
Christ's spoken words have been memorialized within the Holy Scriptures for us to have faith in them. His words within the Bible will judge us in the last day.
In fact, the unsaved dead will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment in this life by what is written in various books of Judgment (Revelation 20:12). This shows us that the written Word of God has power and authority to judge just as the books of Judgment have power and authority to judge a person's actions on the last day.
For all believers will be judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12). This is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the royal Law of love under the New Testament (James 2:8) (Romans 13:8-10).
VIII. John's Gospel is sufficient alone for saving faith in Jesus Christ.
What is purpose of John's book or gospel?
John 20:30-31 says,
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God.
Wrong. The Roman Catholic church came into being in 312 A.D... (And I use the word "Church" lightly.) Believers were first called "Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26), the Book of Acts was written in 80–90 AD.
what does a psalm 82 reference dealing with God addressing the governing rulers of the time about their corruption have to do with dead saints omnisciently hearing all of our prayers?
There are many references in the letters of the New Testament to requests to " pray for us" or " pray for each other" . So clearly yes, it is possible and useful.
Revelations explains that the prayers of saints are there at the altar of God. So asking them to pray for us is effective.
Do they hear us? We know we are surrounded by " great cloud of witnesses" and there is "more joy in heaven over a sinner that repents"
As for Mary, her role as intercessor with Jesus, is heralded in the OT by her position as davidic queen( i.e. Mother of king) - her influence demonstrated at the miracle of Cana Cana , but rebuked by our Lord because at that time his "time had not yet come", which it certainly has now. There is documentary evidence of the tradition - intercession of theotokos - ( e.g. Ryland's papyrus) long before the New Testament canon was concluded. And it was certainly believed by fathers at early councils.
I think you meant "idolatrous" not "adultrous"I skimmed what you read and seen that you said Sola Scriptura is adulterous. Yet, we do not see the majority of Christians who revere the Bible as bowing down and praying to a book. God’s Word says Scripture is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. David hid God’s Word in his heart so that he would not sin against the Lord. Of course you have no case that Christians are worshiping the Bible. But you need to say this to deflect away from the fact that praying to saints and bowing down before statues is not adulterous.
I think you meant "idolatrous" not "adultrous"
What, do you think, is the essence of idolatry?
I think...
It is not in a list of do's & don't's
It is whenever we put something else as our primary concern over God.
In The Ancient Near East fear of the elements, & bad harvests meant they were prone to worship "magical" semi-deities.
Nowadays idolatry is more likely to consist in addictions to money, power, sex, gratifications and ideologies.
There can be a danger of putting a book above God.
Sola Scriptura is an unproved (& disproved) assertion, that can almost deify a set of writings, & shackle people against wider truth & the Living Word of God preached by His Church.
I think you may have demonstrated this......"Idolatry" isn't somehow in the use of religious art........it is far more profound. So if you avoid statues you can kid yourself you have no idols?
So, what do you believe is the essence of idolatry???
According to the Bible, it is Christians who are saints. The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means consecrated to God. Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints, and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly.
Roman Catholicism teaches things that are not biblical, It's understanding of “saints” compared with the biblical teaching fit's not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint.
(Romans 16:2)
(Philippians 4:21)
(Ephesians 4:12)
(Ephesians 5:3)
I think you meant "idolatrous" not "adultrous"
What, do you think, is the essence of idolatry?
I think...
It is not in a list of do's & don't's
It is whenever we put something else as our primary concern over God.
In The Ancient Near East fear of the elements, & bad harvests meant they were prone to worship "magical" semi-deities.
Nowadays idolatry is more likely to consist in addictions to money, power, sex, gratifications and ideologies.
There can be a danger of putting a book above God.
Sola Scriptura is an unproved (& disproved) assertion, that can almost deify a set of writings, & shackle people against wider truth & the Living Word of God preached by His Church.
I think you may have demonstrated this......"Idolatry" isn't somehow in the use of religious art........it is far more profound. So if you avoid statues you can kid yourself you have no idols?
So, what do you believe is the essence of idolatry???
The canonised saints are officially designated as such, solely for our edification and for the help of their prayers, herebelow, in this vale of tears. In the final analysis, indeed, I believe I read recently that it was not as certain as ex cathedra pronouncements, and in some cases, only enacted after lengthy prayers by the officiating pope.
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
What a strange question. Can it mean we are rival gods ? No. of course not. So, it can only mean that we shall share in Jesus' own divine life by his adoption of us as his brothers and sisters, as indeed scripture tells us, and you should have been aware of. If technically speaking, God could enable us to tell a mountain to relocate in the sea in this life, what might He not empower us to effect in heaven ?
As such, we would have access to the same faculty as Jesus, himself, to multitask in this way. Some NDE'ers have reported somehow simultaneously witnessing their life-review, both in their own person and in the person whom their good and bad acts affected. Just about all the NDE'ers report having a divine omniscience during their NDE, as have some mystics. In fact, in that most impressive NDE YouTube clip of Dr Joe Geraci, below, he states that he even became in some mysterious way the same love, peace, etc that he was experiencing :
The Catholic church initiated asking dead saints to Pray FOR them. They do not pray TO the saints, but trying to speak with the dead is prohibited by God. This is the same Catholic church that once told peasants they HAD to pay for their Salvation,so once again we see man veering far from God's Holy Bible... Pray to God in Jesus' Name my friends...I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
The Catholic church initiated asking dead saints to Pray FOR them. They do not pray TO the saints, but trying to speak with the dead is prohibited by God. This is the same Catholic church that once told peasants they HAD to pay for their Salvation,so once again we see man veering far from God's Holy Bible... Pray to God in Jesus' Name my friends...I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
what does a psalm 82 reference dealing with God addressing the governing rulers of the time about their corruption have to do with dead saints omnisciently hearing all of our prayers?
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