Praying to Saints

JESUS=G.O.A.T

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The scriptures do not condemn praying to saints. It’s kneeling before statues that is prohibited by the scriptures. Kneeling before statues is not necessary for prayer.
the scripture doesn't support praying to saints either though that's what i'm trying to say. IN the numerous examples we have of people believers praying in the bible its to God.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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The scriptures do not condemn praying to saints. It’s kneeling before statues that is prohibited by the scriptures. Kneeling before statues is not necessary for prayer.
the scripture doesn't support praying to saints either though that's what i'm trying to say. IN the numerous examples we have of people believers praying in the bible its to God.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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The scriptures do not condemn praying to saints. It’s kneeling before statues that is prohibited by the scriptures. Kneeling before statues is not necessary for prayer.
the scripture doesn't support praying to saints either though that's what i'm trying to say. IN the numerous examples we have of people believers praying in the bible its to God.
 
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BNR32FAN

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the scripture doesn't support praying to saints either though that's what i'm trying to say. IN the numerous examples we have of people believers praying in the bible its to God.

Should we condemn the actions of others because their actions are not addressed in the Bible? The Bible doesn’t tell us everything we can do it tells us everything we can’t do.
 
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Mark_Sam

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Maybe you are right in that it is not Catholic dogma since I've experienced Catholicism as a child, but not practiced it as an adult. I think it's dangerous to replace Jesus as the sole mediator and redeemer. What it leads to is confusion and souls being lost. The following explains what ends up being practiced.

I found this and think it explains from a Catholic view. What do you think?

Yeah, I think that article sums it up. Then the question is if this new insight in Mariology justifies giving Mary the title of Co-redemptrix, or if this would be overemphasising her role in salvation history. Again, one is free to use that title, but I prefer other ones like "the new Eve", "mother of the Church" and "the sorrowful mother", which communicate many of the same insights. Recently, the Pope introduced a new feast in the Roman calendar - the memorial of Mary, mother of the Church (Pentecost Monday). And in 2017, the Congregation of the Mother Coredemptrix (a religious order) changed their name to "the Congregation of the Mother of the Redeemer", upon recommandation of the Vatican. So I do think that "the Coredemptrix hype" from the 1990's to the early 2000's is slowly fading.

"Mediatrix of all grace" is less controversial, but controversial nonetheless. I agree that Mary is the Mediatrix of grace. But of all grace? If taken literally, it cannot be true, since she didn't mediate grace to herself, or to the Old Testament Patriarchs, since she didn't exist. And if taken to mean all grace given after Mary's assumption (for example), that is also problematic: what about the grace of forgiveness given in Confession? Or the salvific grace given in Baptism? Or the grace of transubstantiation? Is Mary involved in these as well?

So to sum it up: I do think that the titles of Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces are true in some sense, and can be understood in a orthodox way. And they do offer interesting Marian insights. However, as experience has shown, these titles have caused more confusion than clarity, which is the opposite of what a dogma is supposed to accomplish. These titles are in use, but they are below the level of dogma in the Catholic "hierachy of teachings". The Catholic people are allowed to preach it, but they cannot condemn fellow Catholics for questioning these titles.
 
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JF Seabastian

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Praying to saints contradicts scripture though
I agree that praying to any entity besides God is contradicted by Scripture. However, Catholics do not pray to saints, they ask saints to pray to God for them.
 
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JF Seabastian

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Yeah, I think that article sums it up. Then the question is if this new insight in Mariology justifies giving Mary the title of Co-redemptrix, or if this would be overemphasising her role in salvation history. Again, one is free to use that title, but I prefer other ones like "the new Eve", "mother of the Church" and "the sorrowful mother", which communicate many of the same insights. Recently, the Pope introduced a new feast in the Roman calendar - the memorial of Mary, mother of the Church (Pentecost Monday). And in 2017, the Congregation of the Mother Coredemptrix (a religious order) changed their name to "the Congregation of the Mother of the Redeemer", upon recommandation of the Vatican. So I do think that "the Coredemptrix hype" from the 1990's to the early 2000's is slowly fading.

"Mediatrix of all grace" is less controversial, but controversial nonetheless. I agree that Mary is the Mediatrix of grace. But of all grace? If taken literally, it cannot be true, since she didn't mediate grace to herself, or to the Old Testament Patriarchs, since she didn't exist. And if taken to mean all grace given after Mary's assumption (for example), that is also problematic: what about the grace of forgiveness given in Confession? Or the salvific grace given in Baptism? Or the grace of transubstantiation? Is Mary involved in these as well?

So to sum it up: I do think that the titles of Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces are true in some sense, and can be understood in a orthodox way. And they do offer interesting Marian insights. However, as experience has shown, these titles have caused more confusion than clarity, which is the opposite of what a dogma is supposed to accomplish. These titles are in use, but they are the level of dogma in the Catholic "hierachy of teachings". The Catholic people are allowed to preach it, but they cannot condemn fellow Catholics for questioning these titles.
Mary is a saint. She has no godlike powers. However, she is close to God and people petition her to intercede for them. I cannot accept the Immaclate Conception belief, though.
 
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marineimaging

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Where does is say, in The Bible, "Everything has to be in The Bible"?
Gospel of John Chapter 21:
[24] This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

I think that Gospel cleary says that the Bible does NOT contain all the Jesus did, for sure. And, yet, I have never found something in life that I could not find covered in the Word of God, KJV, Genesis to Revelation. Nothing.
 
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marineimaging

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Mary is a saint. She has no godlike powers. However, she is close to God and people petition her to intercede for them. I cannot accept the Immaclate Conception belief, though.
Please help me understand. You are saying that you cannot accept that God, the creator of the Universe, chose Mary to have His son, Jesus? With all due respect what is your understanding of why did Jesus have a mission that required that he be born of a woman and not be of complete deity? I mean, why did he have to be human and why could he have not satisfied the requirement of being the ransom, the sacrificial lamb of God? After all, he was before time He was in the form he was in Heaven before man even existed, but he had to be human to be the lamb or it would not have been a sacrifice.
 
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dzheremi

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Please help me understand. You are saying that you cannot accept that God, the creator of the Universe, chose Mary to have His son, Jesus? With all due respect what is your understanding of why did Jesus have a mission that required that he be born of a woman and not be of complete deity? I mean, why did he have to be human and why could he have not satisfied the requirement of being the ransom, the sacrificial lamb of God? After all, he was before time He was in the form he was in Heaven before man even existed, but he had to be human to be the lamb or it would not have been a sacrifice.

The immaculate conception is not about the birth of Jesus Christ. It concerns the birth of St. Mary from her parents, Joachim and Anna, saying that she was born without the stain of original sin.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Please help me understand. You are saying that you cannot accept that God, the creator of the Universe, chose Mary to have His son, Jesus? With all due respect what is your understanding of why did Jesus have a mission that required that he be born of a woman and not be of complete deity? I mean, why did he have to be human and why could he have not satisfied the requirement of being the ransom, the sacrificial lamb of God? After all, he was before time He was in the form he was in Heaven before man even existed, but he had to be human to be the lamb or it would not have been a sacrifice.

Not only a sacrifice but The Perfect Sacrifice because He faced all the same temptations and trials we face and yet He never once sinned. I completely agree with you brother Marineimage. Just wanted to add that perfect part in there. God bless you and God bless the Corps!! HURAHH!!
 
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wilts43

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All denominations disagree on scriptural interpretation. So which one is correct?
This is a back-to-front stance.
THe Church is The Authority founded by Christ.
This Catholic Church discerned, selected & compiled "The Bible" 350 years later.
The Catholic Church selected, compiled & defined what became known as "The Bible" in order to regulate what books could be read from at the Holy Mass. This was around 400AD around 350 years after they had been preaching The Gospel & spreading Christianity ....with no Bible.
The early Catholic Christians used Jewish writings we call The Old Testament. They also used many writings from early Christians as they were written. The Catholic Church wanted to regulate what books could be read in The Holy Liturgy of The Mass. And some of the new writings were suspect.

So in 367 AD St. Athanasius drew up a list of 73 books for the Bible that he believed to be divinely inspired.
This list was approved by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD,
It was formally approved by the Church Council of Rome 382 AD. This was the start of The Universal Canon. What we today call "The Bible"
Exactly the same Canon was ratified again at the Councils at Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD)
In 405 AD, Pope Innocent I wrote to the Bishop of Toulouse confirming this same Canon.
In 419 AD, the Council of Carthage reaffirmed this list, which Pope Boniface agreed to.
THAT IS WHERE THE BIBLE CAME FROM. This is historical fact.
1200 years later Luther removed 7 books.
He did this because Maccabees encouraged prayers for the dead. To get rid of Maccabbees he got rid of the group of books called DeuteroCanonicals.
He also wanted to remove James, Jude, Hebrews & Revelations...but friends dissuaded him.
He really chopped The Bible to fit his new Protestant religion.


Christ founded His Church.....He did not write a book.
"The Church" not "The Bible"... is.... "the pillar & foundation of Truth".
That's what THE BIBLE SAYS! (1 Tim 3:15)
And nowhere does The Bible mention "The Bible" .....because "The Bible" is a Selected COMPENDIUM made by The Catholic Church after preaching the Gospel without The Bible for 350 years.
If you listened to Jesus, you would listen to his Church. (Luke 10:16) "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” "(Matt 28:18-)
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…
Apparently Jesus did it wrong. He shouldn't have had Apostles who appointed Bishops, Deacons & Presbyters (Elders/Priests)....forming a growing body of Apostolic-teachers under authority. He shouldn't have refounded The Messianic Davidic Kingdom with Davidic Steward (Matt 16:18-19 & Isaiah 22:19-23)
Jesus should have got out his carpenter-kit & built The Printing Press so that Protestantism could have been invented 1500 years before it did arrive! Then He should have said ...."Now let's write The Book" Then He could have miraculously caused universal literacy .
 
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wilts43

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I agree that praying to any entity besides God is contradicted by Scripture. However, Catholics do not pray to saints, they ask saints to pray to God for them.
Thank you for some posts from a Protestant that reflect accurately Catholic belief.
It is so tedious always answering prejudicial misrepresentations & strawmen.
Thank you for your Christian integrity.

"To pray" originally meant to entreat or ask earnestly. This is still the Catholic (& legal) useage.
So we do ask (Pray) Saints to pray to God for us.
Protestants often see "Prayer" as identical to "Worship".... because they exclusively "ask" God. And thus their "Worship" can be word-based prayer, hymns & praise.
They unconciously impose their exclusive meaning of "Prayer" onto Catholics who are using the term much more widely.
Protestants also do not have Jesus really present in The Eucharist for "pure worship" as Catholics do. We literally "worship" Him, often wordlessly.
 
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NeedyFollower

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I don't see how the intercession of the saints "interferes" with that. If anything, asking for the prayers of others is not only putting the Lord uppermost in our own minds but in the minds of others as well. On that basis, trying to go it alone seems like the worse option.
Didn't Paul suggest that on the first of the week that they take up a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem ...they were still living and thus needed food.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Didn't Paul suggest that on the first of the week that they take up a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem ...they were still living and thus needed food.
I must say I don't see the connection between my post and yours. Care to elaborate?
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Thing is, Jesus did say that we have to pick up our crosses and follow Him.

I believe those words very much. I just do not see how that has anything to do with Catholicism.

You said:
The Catholic Church is very much hated and despised but it still stands.

There are many religions that are hated and despised and they still stand. That does not mean they are correct according to the Bible.

You said:
Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail againt His church.

But is the Catholic church the one we see described in the New Testament? Do we see Paul and Peter praying to Mary and the dead saints? Do we see Barnabas going to to Peter to confess his sins? Do we see James promote the use of statues as long as we do not worship them? Where is the pope like figure being lifted up in the New Testament? None of these things can be found when reading our Bibles. Hence, why you need additional words added to the Bible to make them so. But are these added words divine in origin like the Bible? Did you check these added words to see if they are divine in origin?
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Small potatoes. It must be important to you because you keep repeating yourself like a faulty recording when in practice it is not what happens. You miss the big question of the OP -- "Why don't these people pray to God instead?."

Yes, this is the problem I ran into when I was a kid (growing up in the 80's). I said to my childhood friend to pray to God. But he did not want to hear it. He preferred praying mostly to Mary for some odd reason.
 
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NeedyFollower

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I must say I don't see the connection between my post and yours. Care to elaborate?
Oh ..sorry brother ...It was regarding who the saints were ..they were living saints that prayed for the new body of believers ...I was reading in Philippians this morning and I think elsewhere Paul had mention (1st Thessalonians 3:10 ) about them praying day and night . I have recently been seeing that in many places ..the early christians prayed for one another on a continual basis ... I know that Jesus is on the right hand of the father making intercession for the saints but am not convinced that the saints who have finsihed their work here need the intercession of our Lord Jesus ..I need intercession and many in my family do ( I have both catholic and protestant family members who are lost and living like the godless but have put their faith in traditions and church attendance while living exactly like those who perish . ) So , while I believe in the intercession of the saints ..it is the living saints . Did that clear up my meaning ? Thanks brother .
 
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Abrey098

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The underline problem is communicating with the dead. It should be obvious.

Those in Heaven aren't dead technically speaking.

"John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
 
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marineimaging

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