You're going to have to help me out a little more than that. I'm not confused with my own values of prayer but I am with the values of praying to saints.
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Praying to Saints
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Darren Court
Active Member
In advance I'm sorry for the long post but this is a matter I've studied, thought and prayed on for some time (to God of course!).... I hope it will help someone...
Catholics Asking Saints and Mary to pray for them
Catholics often accuse Protestants of not understanding Catholicism when they’re accused of praying to Mary and the saints.
I used to accept that Catholics didn't pray to Mary because they said they don't actually pray to Mary and the saints but rather ask them they just ask them to pray for us. (On the basis the bible tells us to pray for one another and there’s no inference that death breaks this requirement).
However, reading the Catholic Catechism "Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men…"
Frankly, I find the mental gymnastics Catholics do to tell us that they DON'T pray to Mary when their OFFICIAL catechism understandable even if it's deceitful, confused or delusional. It seems to many Catholics the line between asking someone to pray for them and actually praying to that person is blurred, when to others (except similar high church types) there's a clear difference.
Irrespective, I find the reality is that many Catholics do not understand the difference between asking Mary to pray for them and praying to Mary.
I personally think the Catholic case for even ASKING Mary to pray for us is weak and fundamentally flawed. Ultimately it demonstrates complete lack of understanding of what prayer is, what it isn't and how God sees it.
It’s weak because they are relying on an undefined boundary between “ask” and “pray”. For me prayer is a particular kind of communication based on the position of the prayer to the prayed to but most especially involving thanks, praise/reverence and petition. In such a way people who kneeled before a king might “pray” to be forgiven and as such so is any communication to anyone in the same vein whether it be Mary, the saints or people living. My reason for this is simple. If prayer just means communing with God then it’s impossible to pray to anyone else…. But the bible makes it abundantly clear that we can and do put other people, other things in the place of God and if we communicate with such things (with thanks, praise and petition) then we’re praying to them even if we don’t think we are!
Then there's the real problem Catholics have with the issue of biblical instructions and those who have given up their earthly robe. Are the instructions in the bible applicable to those who are not earthly residents?
Some foolish Catholics might try to argue yes and then fall foul of instructions like feed the hungry, make disciples all over the world, etc. However, in one Catholic discussion, a chappie tried to argue that all the saints in heaven are abiding by the same biblical instructions as us on earth but just executing in a different way. He tried to say that Mary for example was playing a part in feeding the hungry. Frankly I think it's pretty self-evident that this is foolish but hey.
Other less foolish Catholics might try the argument that some biblical instructions do apply to those in heaven and some don't. Frankly it's a weak attempt to cloud the issue that's fairly plain when you ask how do we know which ones and why did God write words for those He lives with?
The only sensible answer therefore is that the biblical instructions are not for those in heaven but only for us on earth. Of course the astute Catholic immediately sees the problem this causes them because if Mary isn't included in the instructed to "pray for one another" then how can she be included at all in our instruction to pray for her? Moreover it means we are instructed to pray for Mary but she is not instructed to pray for us and there's no biblical instruction to ask for Mary to pray for us!
Putting aside the weak aspect of the argument, even if we are only communicating with Mary and the saints, I think such action is fundamentally flawed.
To get to grips with this we have to understand prayer, especially its purpose and how it works (or doesn’t). …
Most Christians to some degree seem to hold the belief that prayer is mainly about getting something from God - a bit like an all year Father Christmas. It’s upon this premise that they base the idea if we can get more people to pray for us, its more likely God will grant our petition and Catholics think we can get an even better chance if Mary and or the saints pray for us! It’s a nice concept but totally wrong. Look at what the bible tells us…
Into that context it's nearly impossible that God could even entertain the idea that He should change any even small aspect of His plan because we ask. To make such a change would mean God settling for a second best changed plan with ongoing ramifications and consequences.
In light of this what can we tell God that He doesn’t already know and what could we ask that He wasn’t expecting? … study of the hundreds of bible verses on prayer show that by far the most common type of prayer might be called positional prayer. Positional prayer is where someone outlines the relevant positions of God and himself… e.g. “Our Father who are in heaven…” or “God you are worthy of everything…” or “God you are so great and good…” etc. Why is positional prayer be so important?
If you need biblical basis for this look to Jesus “your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” and “yet not my will but yours”.
Which brings us back to the crux of the Catholic assertion that we ask Mary to pray for us because the bible tells us to pray for one another….. but if the purpose of getting others to pray for us isn’t to change God then what is the purpose? There are lots of reasons primary of which is that we are to come alongside one another. i.e. support, comfort, help, etc. Its not about communicating with God it’s about us communicating with God together united in our feelings, desires, hopes, efforts, etc…
More than that how can we pray for one another with any effect if we don’t mean it? If we mean it and can help why don’t we? In other words if we pray for one another we help one another even if that help is nothing more than standing with someone….
.. and therein lies the difficulty in asking Mary or the saints to pray for us…. There is absolutely no point unless we believe she has influence with God and that cuts right across the truth of prayer.
At this point many object to the reality of prayer simply by asking “What’s the point of prayer then?”
Such a response is understandable and perhaps unknowingly admission that they know the truth but don’t like it!
There are many many reasons to pray that are deep and complex (what else would you expect when your communing with an infinite God?). Here’s just a small list..
Catholics Asking Saints and Mary to pray for them
Catholics often accuse Protestants of not understanding Catholicism when they’re accused of praying to Mary and the saints.
I used to accept that Catholics didn't pray to Mary because they said they don't actually pray to Mary and the saints but rather ask them they just ask them to pray for us. (On the basis the bible tells us to pray for one another and there’s no inference that death breaks this requirement).
However, reading the Catholic Catechism "Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men…"
Frankly, I find the mental gymnastics Catholics do to tell us that they DON'T pray to Mary when their OFFICIAL catechism understandable even if it's deceitful, confused or delusional. It seems to many Catholics the line between asking someone to pray for them and actually praying to that person is blurred, when to others (except similar high church types) there's a clear difference.
Irrespective, I find the reality is that many Catholics do not understand the difference between asking Mary to pray for them and praying to Mary.
I personally think the Catholic case for even ASKING Mary to pray for us is weak and fundamentally flawed. Ultimately it demonstrates complete lack of understanding of what prayer is, what it isn't and how God sees it.
It’s weak because they are relying on an undefined boundary between “ask” and “pray”. For me prayer is a particular kind of communication based on the position of the prayer to the prayed to but most especially involving thanks, praise/reverence and petition. In such a way people who kneeled before a king might “pray” to be forgiven and as such so is any communication to anyone in the same vein whether it be Mary, the saints or people living. My reason for this is simple. If prayer just means communing with God then it’s impossible to pray to anyone else…. But the bible makes it abundantly clear that we can and do put other people, other things in the place of God and if we communicate with such things (with thanks, praise and petition) then we’re praying to them even if we don’t think we are!
Then there's the real problem Catholics have with the issue of biblical instructions and those who have given up their earthly robe. Are the instructions in the bible applicable to those who are not earthly residents?
Some foolish Catholics might try to argue yes and then fall foul of instructions like feed the hungry, make disciples all over the world, etc. However, in one Catholic discussion, a chappie tried to argue that all the saints in heaven are abiding by the same biblical instructions as us on earth but just executing in a different way. He tried to say that Mary for example was playing a part in feeding the hungry. Frankly I think it's pretty self-evident that this is foolish but hey.
Other less foolish Catholics might try the argument that some biblical instructions do apply to those in heaven and some don't. Frankly it's a weak attempt to cloud the issue that's fairly plain when you ask how do we know which ones and why did God write words for those He lives with?
The only sensible answer therefore is that the biblical instructions are not for those in heaven but only for us on earth. Of course the astute Catholic immediately sees the problem this causes them because if Mary isn't included in the instructed to "pray for one another" then how can she be included at all in our instruction to pray for her? Moreover it means we are instructed to pray for Mary but she is not instructed to pray for us and there's no biblical instruction to ask for Mary to pray for us!
Putting aside the weak aspect of the argument, even if we are only communicating with Mary and the saints, I think such action is fundamentally flawed.
To get to grips with this we have to understand prayer, especially its purpose and how it works (or doesn’t). …
Most Christians to some degree seem to hold the belief that prayer is mainly about getting something from God - a bit like an all year Father Christmas. It’s upon this premise that they base the idea if we can get more people to pray for us, its more likely God will grant our petition and Catholics think we can get an even better chance if Mary and or the saints pray for us! It’s a nice concept but totally wrong. Look at what the bible tells us…
- God has a perfect plan from beginning to end. “I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done" (Isaiah 46:9-10)
- God doesn’t change His mind… “I the LORD do not change." Malachi 3:6 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind." Number 23:19
- God knows everything “ For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things” 1Jo 3:20 “Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.” Psalm 139:4. “I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee” Job 42:2 “The eyes of the Lord are in every place” Pr 15:3
Into that context it's nearly impossible that God could even entertain the idea that He should change any even small aspect of His plan because we ask. To make such a change would mean God settling for a second best changed plan with ongoing ramifications and consequences.
In light of this what can we tell God that He doesn’t already know and what could we ask that He wasn’t expecting? … study of the hundreds of bible verses on prayer show that by far the most common type of prayer might be called positional prayer. Positional prayer is where someone outlines the relevant positions of God and himself… e.g. “Our Father who are in heaven…” or “God you are worthy of everything…” or “God you are so great and good…” etc. Why is positional prayer be so important?
If you need biblical basis for this look to Jesus “your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” and “yet not my will but yours”.
Which brings us back to the crux of the Catholic assertion that we ask Mary to pray for us because the bible tells us to pray for one another….. but if the purpose of getting others to pray for us isn’t to change God then what is the purpose? There are lots of reasons primary of which is that we are to come alongside one another. i.e. support, comfort, help, etc. Its not about communicating with God it’s about us communicating with God together united in our feelings, desires, hopes, efforts, etc…
More than that how can we pray for one another with any effect if we don’t mean it? If we mean it and can help why don’t we? In other words if we pray for one another we help one another even if that help is nothing more than standing with someone….
.. and therein lies the difficulty in asking Mary or the saints to pray for us…. There is absolutely no point unless we believe she has influence with God and that cuts right across the truth of prayer.
At this point many object to the reality of prayer simply by asking “What’s the point of prayer then?”
Such a response is understandable and perhaps unknowingly admission that they know the truth but don’t like it!
There are many many reasons to pray that are deep and complex (what else would you expect when your communing with an infinite God?). Here’s just a small list..
- Develop a relationship with God
- Align our will with His
- Align our compassion with each other (pray for one another)
- Off load emotion to God
- Change our attitude
- Prayer changes things – when we change and release God to work (note doesn’t change God)
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SparkyKarl
Active Member
Wrong. The Roman Catholic church came into being in 312 A.D... (And I use the word "Church" lightly.) Believers were first called "Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26), the Book of Acts was written in 80–90 AD.
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Which demonstrates the falasy of sola scriptura.
Since neither does it say they are alive on earth.
Scripture is not unambiguous nor is it a complete manual of faith,
Which is where tradition kicks in -the faith handed down as the primary means of communication - and authority - and we see documented prayers for intercession, long before the New Testament canon had been decided by the authority of councils of the Catholic Church. Indeed some of the fathers who chose your New Testament were vociferous on the matter.
Indeed " he is not god of the dead, for all live to him"
And as we see at the transfiguration, they are live in another form, the " cloud of witnesses" that surround us.
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Larry Wilgus
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People pray to saints due to Bible illiteracy. They haven't developed confidence in God that He hears our prayers, so they include praying to fallible people instead of a infallible Father God. Scripture teaches "there is one God and one moderator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). Sadly, too many believers don't let the Bible get in the way of what they wrongly believe.
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We do pray directly to God. But it's another Catholic "both/and"
"A personal relationship with the Lord" Yes indeed!......But what does that mean?
How is that lived out?
How do you love "The Lord"?
By "loving-one-another"....this is God's delight.
This is what becoming divine (Trinitarian) means.
"Me-&-Jesus" is a very modern, protestant heresy, naturally emerging from an individualistic, egotistical culture.
But the God of The Bible ALWAYS saves (& makes ever-expanding covenants with) communities.
Couple(Adam-&-Eve), Family (Noah), Tribe (Abraham), Israel, All-the-nations.
Catholics believe God is PERFECT COMMUNAL LOVE.
That is why there are "3-Persons-in-One-God".
Perfect-Love is..... "Separate-Persons-in-co-attraction-being-Perfectly-One"
LOVE
One person=Narcissism
Two Persons=Reciprocity
Three Persons=Community
I realise God is ultimately incomprehensible by our reason, but some truthes have been revealed about him that point our meditation of him in the right direction.
GOD-IS-PERFECT-COMMUNAL-LOVE.
That's why throughout the Old Testament He always saves "A People" And he forms Covenants with His People.
So Jesus says... "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (And he lays down his life for us) (John 13:34).
So God's delight is his children "loving one another" (becoming God's-essence.....Perfect-Communal-Love)
The "Communion of The Saints" is all about this Communal-Love that is God's very nature.
The grave does not separate us from this Love.
So Catholics emphasise that Heaven is a community....that begins now.
I think it's fair to say some Protestants can get locked into an individualistic "me-&-Jesus" personal-salvation, that is unbiblical.
Another point is that. As James 5:16 says "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." So I like to enlist those righteous ones now with God, especially the mosty righteous "grace-filled-one" Mary.
In that connection look up the role of The Davidic King's mother (Gebirah & Queen) which was to intercede with the king for the people. Then read the story of Mary kicking off Jesus' mission at Cana again (john 2:1-12) & understand why Jesus (Davidic King) defers to His mother's intercession even though He thought his "hour had not yet come".
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Abrey098
Newbie
To add my thoughts on this. As a new Catholic convert. It was something to think about and prayer over, over the time I'd prepared for baptism and conformation.
Just as someone in the congregation would pray for someone, the Saints in Heaven are able to pray for us. As with these prayers we ask for, from others alive on Earth today, I would still pray directly to God for those things I ask others to pray for. Any prayer request of a Saint is always something I will pray to God about directly.
I believe I read in other posts here (though I haven't read every single post, my own failing there) It's not either/or. I don't think anyone should ONLY ask for a Saints prayers without praying to God also and those prayers to God directly are above all others.
God longs to hear from us. Why would He want us to stop praying for those souls currently not in Heaven, if we had reached Heaven?
Even with the "Litany of the Saints" an important prayer in The Church. It begins with asking God for His mercy, asking Our Lord Christ for His mercy, asking the Holy Spirit for His mercy before asking for any intercessions from Saints in Heaven.
"LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, have mercy on us.
LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, hear us.
CHRIST, graciously hear us.
GOD, THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, have mercy on us.
GOD THE SON, REDEEMER OF THE WORLD, have mercy on us.
GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, have mercy on us.
HOLY TRINITY, ONE GOD, have mercy on us."
Would love to hear from Catholics as well as non-Catholics regarding this little input of mine. I apologise if anything here is incorrect or been said too many times before.
Just as someone in the congregation would pray for someone, the Saints in Heaven are able to pray for us. As with these prayers we ask for, from others alive on Earth today, I would still pray directly to God for those things I ask others to pray for. Any prayer request of a Saint is always something I will pray to God about directly.
I believe I read in other posts here (though I haven't read every single post, my own failing there) It's not either/or. I don't think anyone should ONLY ask for a Saints prayers without praying to God also and those prayers to God directly are above all others.
God longs to hear from us. Why would He want us to stop praying for those souls currently not in Heaven, if we had reached Heaven?
Even with the "Litany of the Saints" an important prayer in The Church. It begins with asking God for His mercy, asking Our Lord Christ for His mercy, asking the Holy Spirit for His mercy before asking for any intercessions from Saints in Heaven.
"LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, have mercy on us.
LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, hear us.
CHRIST, graciously hear us.
GOD, THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, have mercy on us.
GOD THE SON, REDEEMER OF THE WORLD, have mercy on us.
GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, have mercy on us.
HOLY TRINITY, ONE GOD, have mercy on us."
Would love to hear from Catholics as well as non-Catholics regarding this little input of mine. I apologise if anything here is incorrect or been said too many times before.
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Where do you get these judgements?
That is not why I pray to saints.
And I am not biblically-illiterate.
So, in your denomination, people don't don't ask others to pray for them.
If they do, they are acting in the same way we ask the Saints to act.
It is intercession or mediation.
When you pray to God for somebody else you are mediating & interceding.
But this does not invalidate Christ's role as THE unique Mediator/Redeemer .
But Jesus asks us to follow him, imitate him & do like him.
Just as we can suffer for him without negating his sufferings....if we become like him we will interced for others.
-----------------------------
The word "pray" can be an obstacle
There is confusion caused by the different understandings of what "Prayer" means.
"To pray" originally meant "ask earnestly, beg, entreat,"
(See Pray | Origin and meaning of Pray by Online Etymology Dictionary)
Because Protestants only "ask God",.... the word "pray" has come to mean (in their minds) exclusively "speaking to God".
Catholics keep the older meaning. And I pray you understand this! (See! it even "sounds" old )
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I have been agonizing over this issue for months! I came to understand that they do not expect the saints to ANSWER the prayers, but just to intercede and that to 'pray' is not to worship but just to ask. Pray thee come with me etc as in olden times when the word 'pray' meant more than it does today.
However! I have not been able to justify doing this because in every forum and in every article no one could give me any proof that the apostles or even the ancient church fathers such as Polycarp etc prayed to saints. Research found that it was over 300 years before any proof of this was established.
And if we are to ask saints for intercession then why not OT saints? Moses for example. The apostles never asked for their intercession.
If I saw that even the Church fathers taught by the apostles did this I would not have a problem with it.
I was disappointed to see the same one scripture vaguely used as proof Paul prayed for the house of .. I forget his name.. which they take to mean he was dead. Maybe. Maybe not. Not enough to base a huge doctrine on nor a verse in Maccabees.
So in other forums I was just told to 'take it on faith' and the authority of the church and do it anyway. I explained that no, for me to do something I consider sin would be .. sin. So I was told I have a problem with authority. No, I have a problem with being told to do something I consider, at this time, to be sin.
I really like the RC and the Orthodox churches. I believe this was the 'original ' church. I think the only thing I just cannot handle is the praying to saints not on the earth. The protestant churches are such a mess. The Reformation has caused thousands and thousands of independent folks to teach anything they like with no accountability with the results showing up in cults and Tv 'ministries' spreading heresies unchecked.
Someone said they see the catholics(including Orthodox) and the first reformation churches of Anglican and (missouri) Lutheran and consider all the rest as 'protestant'.
No Anglican church near here so I still wrestle with the issues in the Episcopal and RC churches and the icons in the Orthodox (I already know their reasons for this)
hmm gay priests or pray to saints? What options! (I have issues with the Missouri Lutheran and yes i know.. no perfect church but how about one that is blatantly not following scripture or seeming to worship Luther)
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The very same Church, the Apostolic Church, was "led by humans".
It is of divine origin but in vessels of clay.
As Jesus promised.....It is full of Tares as well as Wheat.
......It is a Dragnet full of good & bad fish.
But..........
As he founded it upon the Rock of Peter, He promised "The gates of Hell will never prevail over it".
The same Peter denies Jesus 3 times, & Jesus has cause to reprove him "Get behind me Satan"....And yet he confirms Peter's mission, role & function.....
PARTICULAR DEPUTY ROLE OF PETER ("More than these")
(John 21:15-17) "When they had finished eating, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love Me MORE THAN THESE?” “Yes, Lord, He answered, “You know I love You.” Jesus replied, “Feed My lambs.” Jesus asked a second time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord,” he answered, “You know I love You.” Jesus told him, “Shepherd My sheep.” Jesus asked a third time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was deeply hurt that Jesus had asked him a third time, “Do you love Me?” “Lord, You know all things; he replied, “You know I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.
Jesus is The Rock: He is also The Shepherd
but he deputises peter as both rock & chief shepherd
so peter has a unique role among the apostles
It is underlined here
Luke 22:32 "Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial
Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you (plural) like wheat. But I have prayed for you (Singular), Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you (Sing)have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Why did Jesus only pray for Peter?
Peter becomess the touchstone of Orthodoxy & true faith
(the faith that will not fail ....as satan sought......and which he confirms back to the others)
This is exactly the function of the papacy as it evolved.
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Umm... no. They do believe they can pray directly to God and they are not expecting the saints to answer the prayers, only God answers prayers and they believe this as well as only God forgives sin. I suggest you research into these things. You sound like I did before I started finding out what they actually believe rather than spout off what I had been fed in the baptist church.
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Umm... no. They do believe they can pray directly to God and they are not expecting the saints to answer the prayers, only God answers prayers and they believe this as well as only God forgives sin. I suggest you research into these things. You sound like I did before I started finding out what they actually believe rather than spout off what I had been fed in the baptist church.
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Well thought out post this one. I have never seen anything that points to praying 'to' the saints. Praying 'for' them, yes as in Ephesians 6:18 'pray for all the saints' .
In the same way, I don't understand Mary worship. All generations shall call her 'blessed', yes I get that. But nothing more. These are the two big stumbling blocks for me attending a Catholic Church.
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Jonathan Leo
Well-Known Member
Yes we did but notice how the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 is only prayed once and Mary gets 10 Hail Marys
I have nothing against Mary, in fact I can’t wait to meet her and talk about Jesus as a little boy, but I can’t stress enough that praying to Mary is nothing better than useless.
It was Jesus who died for us, and it is He who we should pray to, not Mary and any other saints
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A nice, honest & open post Mary. Thank you.
I presume you have seen The Sub Tuum Praesidium?
"Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God [Theotokos]:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one."
This is dated probably around 250 AD (220 years after Christ & less after Mary's death/dormition/Assumption). This is the first recorded prayer to Mary for her intercession that we have. It may have gone back much further. And, of course, absence of evidence is not "evidence of absence".
And the widespread use of this hymn both East & West implies wide acceptance of this belief. Moreover the early Christians were quick to controversy, & there was none over this widely used hymn. (Yes I know this contradicts the "absence/evidence maxim)
At the back of your struggles I sense a residual belief in Sola Scriptura that seeks Biblical validation.
"in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us"
Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
Have you really dealt with Sola Scriptura?
To me it is so full of holes as to be totally incredible but if you were brought up with that assumption....?
Jesus, didn't write a book!
And He never said "Go & write....".
And He never got his carpenter's tools out to invent the Printing Press so that richer literate people could own books.
And he never even said "there'll be a book" much later!
Instead, He "restored the kingdom" by founding a living Church (Kingdom) "that would never fail" (Matt 16:18); that he would be with until the end of time (Matt 28:20); & "lead into all Truth". (John 16:13).
Isn't this the bit you are struggling with........being "led into all truth"
Fundamentally you seem to be saying "If it's not in The Bible (or The Apostolic Fathers) "it's not true"!
(This is a refinement of Sola Scriptura......that rejects the equally-divine authenticity of the ongoing Apostolic Church of today, which is still refining & developing doctrine in accordance with the Apostolic deposit of faith)
Acts 2 "They devoted themselves to the Apostles teaching"
HOW was this preserved?
2 Tim 2:2 Paul says "You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well."
You take what I taught you
Teach this to others....
Who will teach others
THREE GENERATIONS of Apostolic Authority .....that's succession.
Nothing there about writing books, circulating them, studying them etc.
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Abrey098
Newbie
In the Litany of Saints. one line reads,
ALL THE HOLY PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, pray for us.
I've seen a few recitations of the Litany and Abraham is mentioned by name in some.
There are a few cases of prayers for intercessions from those in Heaven, pre-Nicene (some people suggest the prayers to saints appeared after the Nicene council). Some in unnamed papyrus, some in inscriptions on tombs, believed to be from the early church. Others from noted people of the time.
Origen of Alexandria
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels… as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep”
On Prayer 11
Alexandria, AD 233
St. Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy”
Letters 56[60]:5
Carthage, AD 253[8]
St Augustine , writing sometime after the Nicene council. Had a prayer to the Blessed Virgin.
Would seem odd for these people to just pluck the idea out of thin air. To ask for the prayers of those already believed to be in Heaven. Nothing to gain by lying about it.
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SparkyKarl
Active Member
I know they are genuine Catholics who truly believe in the LORD, but I don't trust Catholicism in it's self. It mixes lies with truth, and teaches things which are not biblical.
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Jonathan Leo
Well-Known Member
If that suits you, then off with you, but let me show you this
Luke 16:19-31
After we die, we cannot interact with the living and vica versa.
Plus may I add that if saints were human just like us, that means that praying to them is futile, lol, they can’t hear us lol
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