Praying to Saints

[Netgear]

By reading my Bible and then looking at what the Catholic Church teaches and practices.

In other words, Sola Scripture

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where does is say, in The Bible, "Everything has to be in The Bible"?

Here is a rather lengthy article I wrote on this one.

A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

Sola Scriptura is the position that you can trust Scripture and Scripture alone as your sole authority for your faith and life. That the revelation known as the Bible can be trusted as your final word of authority for knowing God, salvation, true love, right living, and truth. Now, while there may be other books, letters, or epistles mentioned in Scripture that we don't have currently, they are not a part of the cannon of God's Word today, for there is no other written texts or revelations that is needed besides the Bible for all spiritual matters. For the Bible is unlike any other book in human history. It is clearly a book that is divine in origin that is backed up by many evidences in Science and History.

Now, some might object and point out that you can't prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture because such a position wouldn't have existed until the close of Revelation because the apostles were still speaking and writing the Word of God. However, that is not Sola Scriptura, though. Sola Scriptura is putting your faith in the written Word of God and believing it is suffient for all matters concerning one's faith in God. But what about the spoken Word of God? Does that not conflict with Sola Scriptura? No. First, the spoken Word of God was confirmed by the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). Second, one truth (the Spoken Word of God) was not in conflict with another truth (i.e. the Written Word of God). They both breathed in harmony until one passed away. In other words, picture it in your mind that there are two branches or sticks. One branch represents the Spoken Word and the other branch represents the Written Word. Now imagine one of those branches starting to vanish away out of thin air until it is gone. Is the one branch that remains any different just because the other branch is gone? Yeah, but wouldn't Sola Scriptura only exist until after the close of Revelation with Revelation 22:18-19 because you can't add anymore words to God's Word? No. This is not an exclusive teaching within Scripture; For the Bible teaches elsewhere that we are not to add to the written Word of God, too (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Deuteronomy 12:32) (Proverbs 30:5-6).

Anyways, the purpose of this study is to provide passages to help the reader in possessing Scripture so that they can trust in one divinely inspired written revelation or book (i.e. the Bible) for all spiritual matters in regards to having love, faith, and salvation in Him.

Also, before we examine this study, it is important to note that there are 3 major Words spoken about within Scripture that are connected to one another. There is the:

(1) Living Word of God (Jesus),
(2) Spoken Word of God (Either from God or His people),
(3) Written Word of God (Scripture).

All three are perfect and will endure for forever.
All three are tied together and are always connected.

The Biblical Case for Sola Scriptura:

I. All Scripture is Profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Righteous Teaching.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

A. All Scripture is profitable:

(a) for doctrine, (because)
~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).
(b) for correction (and)
(c) for instruction in righteousness,
(It is sufficient in righteous training because):
~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalms 119:11)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:
(d) May be perfect.
(e) Completely furnished unto all good works.
~ (1) For speaking Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)
(In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect andcomplete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in (1) doctrine, (2)correction, and (3) training in righteousness. All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to beperfect and completeunto all good works. Not some good works. But allgood works. No oral Words of God alone were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.

For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?

II. Do Not Add or Take Away or Go Beyond What is Written:

A. Do Not Add or Take Away From God's Word -

Revelation 22:18-19
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Before you say it, yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking in context of the book of Revelation. However, we have to think about this logically, though. If you can't add any words to the book of Revelation, then you can't add any words to the Bible, too. Why? Well, the book of Revelation is the end of the Bible. It is the close of the whole book known as the Bible. It is the end. This is why I believe Revelation 22:18-19 is prophetic in the fact that it has a secondary fulfillment of speaking about "this book" in reference to "Revelation" in being a part of the book known as the Bible. How so? Well, there are several passages that have a double fulfillment to them. Here is one them:

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

First Fulfillment (That was in the Past):
Reference to the exodus of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

Secondary Fulfillment (That was in the Future):
Reference to the Love of God calling his Son back to the comparative safety in Egypt so that he might die for his people. Matthew 2:15 - "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Also, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus gives His assessment of various churches. In these chapters, Jesus spoke of real churches that existed at the time when John written the book of Revelation, but also to the spiritual state of churches thru out time and today, too. For one of the churches is told to repent or they will go thru the tribulation. For obviously there has been Luke warm churches thru out history and today like the Laodician church.

Besides, there are hundreds of double fulfillment passages in the Bible. How so? Well, the "Typifications of Christ" in the Old Testament are essentially double fulfillment type passages (See this forum thread here to check them out). In fact, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). In other words, the OT Scriptures are a double fulfilment. For the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of the events of it's time and they also spoke about Jesus Christ, too; For Jesus said so Himself.

Also, consider the prophecy in the book of Daniel which was to seal up vision and prophecy versus the prophecy of the book of Revelation which is not sealed.

~ Daniel's End Times prophecy speaks of the events in Revelation. These prophecies of the End Times (that were in a book, i.e. scroll) were to be sealed up and closed (Daniel 12:4) because they were a far way off because Jesus still needed to come to save His people from their sins.

Revelation 22:10 mentions the spirit of prophecy that the book is open.

~ Now, the book is open whereby the things within Revelation (That Daniel also talks about) is exposed so that it will be fulfilled in bringing in the End with Christ's return.

For the entire book of Revelation is about the End Times leading up to Christ's return.

For the end of Revelation closes with Jesus saying,

"Surely I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20).

This means that we should be looking to Jesus return and not some new Revelation.

Paul said if we or an angel from heaven preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8). It is strange that both the Mormon and the Muslim religion are founded on a revelation that comes from angels. Yet the Bible warns against this very thing.

In fact, Jesus Christ commanded that we as believers were to preach this gospel unto all the world (or all nations) until Christ's return.

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is also what we see in Revelation. For this same gospel message was still going out to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (That is still an ongoing process today).

Revelation 14:6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

In other words, God knew that the book of Revelation was going to be a part of the Bible. For surely God does not want us accepting new revelations or additional written works to add to the Bible like with the book of Mormon, the Koran, the added oral traditions of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church), and or the added writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For it is not a coincidence that this warning in Revelation 22 is at the close of our Bibles. In other words, the new reader (Who is unaware that the Bible is made up of 66 books) would understand that you are not to add or subtract from the book (i.e. the Bible) that they were reading. For God obviously intended Scripture to be compiled into one book known as the Bible. For Christians today do regard the Bible as one book, for it is published as one book and it is not generally published into 66 individual books or a 66 book volume set. There are no 66 individual old manuscripts in their original form anymore; And God does not exist in the past abiding with these old manuscripts. These manuscripts are dead and gone. For they were written in a language that is dead. All these things are in the past. However, our God is not a God who just exists in the past. Our God is present and ever active with His people today. For our God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He works with His people who are alive with the written Revelation known as the Bible. Adding any new words to that revelation would be adding to God's Holy written Word as it currently exists with His people who live today.

B. Warning Against Altering God's Word is Confirmed in Old Testament:

Forbidding in altering God's Word in Revelation 22:18-19 can also be seen in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 which says not to add or take away from the words of God's commands. This was the written Word. The Law. God did not want His words being changed or altered in any way by adding or taking away from His words. In fact, if somebody were to try and destroy God's Word, we see that God would protect or preserve His Word. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 36:22-32where king Jehoiakim burns the scroll in a fire (i.e. to eliminate God's Word) and then later God has Jeremiah re-create another roll that says the same thing. In other words, the written Word could not be destroyed by fire, just as the Living Word cannot be destroyed by fire. For the fourth who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends was the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). For even when Moses had broken or shattered the tablets of stone that had the direct hand written Word of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) on it (Exodus 32:19), the Lord our God had hand written them down on tablets of stone again (Exodus 34:1). For the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35). For Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35). Meaning, that Christ's words would be memorialized by being written down where they would not pass away (or be deleted by men).

C. Do Not Go Above What is Written on how we think about men:

The Bible says we are not to go above that which is written (concerning our thoughts of men). Granted, this verse is not all inclusive to the fact that we are not to go above Scripture on other matters, but what this passage does is show us a pattern that Scripture and Scripture alone is our sole authority on the faith and spiritual matters. It confirms that we are not to add or take away from God's Word.

1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

III. Scripture Can Help us to Know the Certainty of Christ's Teachings.

Luke sets out an order of declaration amongst the ministers of the Word to write out the events in order to Theophilus so that he might know for certain of the truth (on Christ's teachings) which he had been instructed.

Luke 1:1-4
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

IV. Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:

In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the armor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, Ephesians 6:16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

V. Spoken Word is confirmed by the Written Word. Acts 17:11

In Acts 17:11, we learn that the Bereans were more noble because they received the "Spoken Word of God" from Paul and Silas with an open mind but yet they searched the Scriptures (i.e. the Written Word of God) to see whether those things were so or not. So the "Spoken Word" is confirmed by the "Written Word." So the "Written Word" is a reliable authority that we can trust. For even Philip opened the heart of the Ethiopian’s understanding from a reading in Isaiah (Thereby confirming the Written Word of God) (Acts 8:26-35). Jesus had opened the disciple's understanding on the Scriptures when He was with them (Luke 24:32); And Paul had told the Corinthians that their words that they speak in Christ (i.e. the Spoken Word of God) were not like as with many others who had corrupted the Word of God (i.e. the Written Word of God) (2 Corinthians 2:17).

VI. 1 Corinthians 14:37 - What Paul had written is the Lord's commandments.

Paul had written to the Corinthians about how if anyone thought of themselves as spiritual or a prophet, they were to know that what he had written unto them was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In other words, the "Written of God" that came from Paul was the Lord's Commandments; And by the authority of the Lord: Paul gave commands to the brethren in doing many things (1 Corinthians 7:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6, 12) (1 Timothy 4:11) (1 Timothy 6:11, 12, 13, 14).

VII. The spoken/written Word is standard by which Jesus will Judge All Men.

John 12:48 essentially says, Christ will judge us by His Word in the last day.
Christ's spoken words have been memorialized within the Holy Scriptures for us to have faith in them. His words within the Bible will judge us in the last day.

In fact, the unsaved dead will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment in this life by what is written in various books of Judgment (Revelation 20:12). This shows us that the written Word of God has power and authority to judge just as the books of Judgment have power and authority to judge a person's actions on the last day.

For all believers will be judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12). This is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the royal Law of love under the New Testament (James 2:8) (Romans 13:8-10).

VIII. John's Gospel is sufficient alone for saving faith in Jesus Christ.

What is purpose of John's book or gospel?

John 20:30-31 says,
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God.

 

[Mark_Sam]

This conflicts with Jesus being are one and only mediator.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

The full qoute from Lumen Gentium reads: "Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."

Mary's mediation is in Christ. She is not another mediator besides Christ, but she is a mediator in Christ by the power of Christ. Without Christ, there would be no mediation, not even through Mary.

Prayer is worship because worship is about giving God all the glory. We learn in the Lord's prayer that says it is thy will be done and not our own will. Worship is reverencing God and His will and plans for our life.

Then there is the silence from Scripture of no actual Christian praying to the dead, as well. This should be obvious that we are not to pray to the dead because necromancy is similar.

Then we just have to disagree about the definition of "prayer". The necromancy charges have been addressed elsewhere in this thread.

So if other Catholics do not pray this way, they will be condemned? If you believe Mary is co-mediatrix then she takes place as a part of a position that is exclusive to God alone. The Scriptures say nothing of her being like a God to take prayer. She was also a sinner who needed God's grace. For she rejoiced in God her Savior. We are to have no other Gods before us. That is the 1st command in the giving of the 10 commandments. Praying to another entity besides God is having another god (little "g"). You may disagree with prayer not being all that exclusive to the power of God alone, but why take that chance. Why do it when it leans so close to necromancy? For me personally, I would not want to play games like that.

No-one is forced to pray to the saints. Actually, praying to the saints is a very small part of the Catholic life. Mary is referenced twice in the Mass, and no prayer in the Mass is addressed to her. The closest you get is if the priest throws in a "Hail Mary" at the end of the sermon, or singing the "Hail, holy Queen" after Mass.

And when talking about the saints, Mary do have a different and elevated position. Christ was 'mediated' to the world through her. Christ took his flesh from her. Christ loved his mother. And as the Humanity of Christ never ceased, Mary is still his mother. In this sense, she is the Mediatrix. And also in the other sense (carrying our prayers to God).

If you only feel comfortable praying directly to God or to Christ, there's nothing wrong with that. But we believe that God has given us the option to ask the saints, who we might identify with and relate to. This is the natural consequence of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. They are alive in Christ, and are probably better at praying, since in Heaven they are not under the curse of sin.

 

[Netgear]

The problem about what you believe jason is that us Catholics believe in Apostolic / Sacred Tradition. Sola Scripture is like trying to carry a bucket of water but without the bucket!

 

[marineimaging]

I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

My wife brings up a good point about those who have gone ahead of us. The Bible says that in heaven there will be no more sorrow. No more crying or pain. That is either truth or lie. As she said, if her mother was looking down from heaven at what was going on between her and her siblings there was no way she could not be hurting. When a man stole my brothers truck and his lifeless body and drove to a bridge, stole all his belongings, and then left him laying there for the ants and dogs I tell you my brother would have been in grievous and sorrowful pain at seeing the anguish of my parents after learning of that, and even for the soul of the man who did it. Why would Jesus go to prepare a place for us, declare the end of sorrow and pain there, and then let us look down upon our kin and watch them suffer and be able to do nothing about it? I think it is too complex of a question for me to answer. I prefer to ask my church family, and my earthly family to pray for us. To prepare a prayer list and keep it and add our prayers to those who are also listening for the Lords loving response. That is sufficient, that is biblical, and I do not believe that our Lord will hold it against me if I don't pray to the saints because I pray to our Father in the name of His only begotten Son, Jesus. I am comforted by knowing that our Lord has given us permission to leave all things in His capable hands while He still expects us to follow the path He has laid out, and when we don't understand something then to be patient and loving and kind.

 

[marineimaging]

I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

My wife brings up a good point about those who have gone ahead of us. The Bible says that in heaven there will be no more sorrow. No more crying or pain. That is either truth or lie. As she said, if her mother was looking down from heaven at what was going on between her and her siblings there was no way she could not be hurting. When a man stole my brothers truck and his lifeless body and drove to a bridge, stole all his belongings, and then left him laying there for the ants and dogs I tell you my brother would have been in grievous and sorrowful pain at seeing the anguish of my parents after learning of that, and even for the soul of the man who did it. Why would Jesus go to prepare a place for us, declare the end of sorrow and pain there, and then let us look down upon our kin and watch them suffer and be able to do nothing about it? I think it is too complex of a question for me to answer. I prefer to ask my church family, and my earthly family to pray for us. To prepare a prayer list and keep it and add our prayers to those who are also listening for the Lords loving response. That is sufficient, that is biblical, and I do not believe that our Lord will hold it against me if I don't pray to the saints because I pray to our Father in the name of His only begotten Son, Jesus. I am comforted by knowing that our Lord has given us permission to leave all things in His capable hands while He still expects us to follow the path He has laid out, and when we don't understand something then to be patient and loving and kind.

 

[wilts43]

By reading my Bible and then looking at what the Catholic Church teaches and practices.

But you don't "read" without "interpreting"; and everyone interprets according to their tradition (what they were taught).
The only difference is Catholics interpret according to the Apostolic Tradition mentioned so often in the NT.
Don't believe me?
Try this......

First try to remove your Protestant-Goggles, long enough to read John 6:22-71 ("Bread-of-Life-Discourse) ....and let the scripture speak for itself.
Bear in mind context;....that before, at Cana, Jesus has turned water into wine (transformation of Substance). Then, immediately before, He multiplies the loaves & fishes (multiplication of substance). He then references the Heavenly Manna & launches into the bread of life discourse.

How many times does Jesus INSIST He is being LITERAL? (that we must eat His Body & drink His blood)
When people baulk at this (like Protestants) he changes the verb from "eat" to "trogo" (gnaw/chew like an animal).
Even though most people turned away he remains firm; & He will NOTretract.
If Jesus was not being literal after such insistence, He was extremely unfair to all those that turned away at this implacable "hard saying".
If Jesus was not being literal, after such insistence, then no biblical text can be taken literally.

(Do not think that, after all He has said about "MY flesh" being vital, that when he says "THE flesh" availeth nothing "he is contradicting himself.
"MY (Jesus') Flesh".... is the very opposite of...... "THE flesh"
You cannot understand this;... with your commonsensical "mind-of-the-flesh".....only with faith.

In the whole of scripture there is not one scrap of support for a figurative meaning for "This is my Body" ....and yet this is the view of most alleged "sola scriptura" adherents!
This is a mind-boggling inconsistency.

And in 1 Corinthians 11:23-30; Paul's strictures & injuncturions only fit with the Catholic understanding. Why should you die for not recognising a symbol?

In short there is not, in the whole NT, one scintilla of support for the Protestant (at least post-Zwinglian) view.........and yet they claim to "follow the Bible".
It is Catholicism that faithfully reflects the Bible that it compiled.

 

[wilts43]

I have been agonizing over this issue for months! I came to understand that they do not expect the saints to ANSWER the prayers, but just to intercede and that to 'pray' is not to worship but just to ask. Pray thee come with me etc as in olden times when the word 'pray' meant more than it does today.

However! I have not been able to justify doing this because in every forum and in every article no one could give me any proof that the apostles or even the ancient church fathers such as Polycarp etc prayed to saints. Research found that it was over 300 years before any proof of this was established.

And if we are to ask saints for intercession then why not OT saints? Moses for example. The apostles never asked for their intercession.
If I saw that even the Church fathers taught by the apostles did this I would not have a problem with it.

I was disappointed to see the same one scripture vaguely used as proof Paul prayed for the house of .. I forget his name.. which they take to mean he was dead. Maybe. Maybe not. Not enough to base a huge doctrine on nor a verse in Maccabees.

So in other forums I was just told to 'take it on faith' and the authority of the church and do it anyway. I explained that no, for me to do something I consider sin would be .. sin. So I was told I have a problem with authority. No, I have a problem with being told to do something I consider, at this time, to be sin.

I really like the RC and the Orthodox churches. I believe this was the 'original ' church. I think the only thing I just cannot handle is the praying to saints not on the earth. The protestant churches are such a mess. The Reformation has caused thousands and thousands of independent folks to teach anything they like with no accountability with the results showing up in cults and Tv 'ministries' spreading heresies unchecked.

Someone said they see the catholics(including Orthodox) and the first reformation churches of Anglican and (missouri) Lutheran and consider all the rest as 'protestant'.

No Anglican church near here so I still wrestle with the issues in the Episcopal and RC churches and the icons in the Orthodox (I already know their reasons for this)
hmm gay priests or pray to saints? What options! (I have issues with the Missouri Lutheran and yes i know.. no perfect church but how about one that is blatantly not following scripture or seeming to worship Luther)

A nice, honest & open post Mary. Thank you.

I presume you have seen The Sub Tuum Praesidium?

"Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God [Theotokos]:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one."

This is dated probably around 250 AD (220 years after Christ & less after Mary's death/dormition/Assumption)

At the back of your struggles I sense a residual belief in Sola Scriptura that seeks Biblical validation.
"in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us"
Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Have you really dealt with Sola Scriptura?
To me it is so full of holes as to be totally incredible but if you were brought up with that assumption....?

Jesus, didn't write a book!
And He never said "Go & write....".
And He never got his carpenter's tools out to invent the Printing Press so that richer literate people could own books.
And he never even said "there'll be a book" much later!

Instead, He "restored the kingdom" by founding a living Church (Kingdom) "that would never fail" (Matt 16:18); that he would be with until the end of time (Matt 28:20); & "lead into all Truth". (John 16:13).

Isn't this the bit you are struggling with........being "led into all truth"
Fundamentally you seem to be saying "If it's not in The Bible (or The Apostolic Fathers) "it's not true"!

(This is a refinement of Sola Scriptura......that rejects the equally-divine authenticity of the ongoing Apostolic Church of today, which is still refining & developing doctrine in accordance with the Apostolic deposit of faith)



Acts 2 "They devoted themselves to the Apostles teaching"
HOW was this preserved?
2 Tim 2:2 Paul says "You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well."
You take what I taught you
Teach this to others....
Who will teach others
THREE GENERATIONS of Apostolic Authority .....that's succession.
Nothing there about writing books, circulating them, studying them etc.

 

[marineimaging]

posts dont post.. then pop up with several later

I know..., it has gone wacky. Thankfully we can trust in the Lord and not technology for our salvation and eternal soul being with our Lord.

 

[wilts43]

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

By reading my Bible and then looking at what the Catholic Church teaches and practices.

Catholics do not worship statues.
But DOES (Exodus 20:3-5) FORBID MAKING STATUES, IMAGES & ART?
Absolutely not......unless you make nonesense of other passages.
Only 5 chapters later (in God's instructions for The Ark of The Covenent) God TELLS them to create graven images!

(1)In Exodus 25:18-20, God COMMANDS Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. " And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. "

(2)God also gave directions for images and animals as decoration of the temple and placed cheribum on the ark of the covenant. 1Kings 7:27 "Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames, and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."

(3) God commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.

(4)God had Moses create a staff with a serpent at the top. People looking at it were cured. According to Protestant critics of Catholics this was idolatory.

Catholics do not "worship" images. Catholic doctrine forbids that. We "use" them as reminders; and to focus our attention.
Do you use images of your family to remind you to think of them? Have you ever kissed a photo or talked to it, or said "I love you"? I have: but I was not "worshipping" (or even "loving") the paper! It directed my thoughts to the person it represents.
Have you never used any prayer aid or prayer-reminder for focus? When I kiss a crucifix I am using my body to cause my mind to love & thank Jesus; I am not worshipping the material it's made of. It's even more useful to have images of what we have not seen (e.g. Mary) to give our mind's imagination a path to contemplation (e.g. of our Mother Mary in Heaven).

You have to remember, that at the time of the Mosaic Law, people literally thought they could literally "make" powerful Gods & worship them. The problem was that, for the Jews (with their "abstract God") they lacked an easy prayer-focus and the people fell away easily.
Our danger of falling into idolatory today is not statuary but MONEY, POWER, ADDICTIONS etc.
That Mosaic situation is remedied by God's INCARNATION in Christ. God has given us images of Himself.....
(1)In The God-Man Christ,
(2)In "The Father-God"
(3)The Holy Spirit as Dove/Tongues-of-fire. God himself gave us these images!
And on the shroud of Turin I believe God has actually given us an image of Himself/Christ. What do you make of the image on the shroud? Do you ignore it? Do you mock it? Do you say to God "You can't do that" Or would you venerate it as I would? If you were before this cloth, how would you treat it?

CRECHE/CRIB? Do you have a Christmas Creche? So do you have a statue of Mary in your Church for a month? Would it be OK to look at her there & think..."Thank you Mary for bringing Jesus into this world"? If you looked at Mary with Jesus in the creche, and said...... "Hail full of grace, the Lord is with with thee"...."blessed art thou amongst women" and "all generations shall indeed call you blessed" for you are "the handmaid of the Lord" that "magnifies the Lord" and brings Him forth into the world by the power of your spouse The holy Spirit...... You would have just quoted a lot of scripture from Luke! Would this be "praying to Mary"?
The early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs. They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
in the OT in 2 Kings 13, a dead man comes back to life after touching the bones of the prophet Elisha.
In Acts; "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."
In Mark 5:25-34 A woman is healed by touching Jesus' garment. "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?” Jesus healed a blind man using mud & spit.

Protestantism has tended to DIS-incarnate Christianity sometimes to the point of Gnosticism. It became about reading, hearing, knowledge & thinking.....a Head religion.
This was (over)-compensated for in 19 Century Revivalism up to the moment, which accentuates emotional satisfactions in worship & prayer.

Catholicism is more about growing in sanctity/holiness, allowing the real, living Jesus in The Eucharist into us.... to transform us. Since God has taken flesh in Christ, Catholic Christianity recognises that "The Flesh" is blessed by God too. So we are comfortable using our bodies (and material aids).....
It's to HELP us "worship in the spirit". It's NOT INSTEAD of worshipping in the spirit. (It's another "Both/And" )
Have uou have been indoctrinated to "see" idolatory, where there is love & honour being expressed with our bodies?
It is another typical "EITHER/OR" Protestant dichotomy. We worship with our bodies to HELP us "worship in the spirit". It's NOT INSTEAD of "worship in the spirit." HUMANS are BODY & SPIRIT Since Jesus became incarnate even our bodies are holy and are rightly used in worship.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The full qoute from Lumen Gentium reads: "Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."

Mary's mediation is in Christ. She is not another mediator besides Christ, but she is a mediator in Christ by the power of Christ. Without Christ, there would be no mediation, not even through Mary.

Then there is no reason to pray to her if she is not in any way a mediator.

Then we just have to disagree about the definition of "prayer".

Worship is giving glory to God, no? Do we not give God glory by praying to Him?
See, I do not pray to my brother who is alive. Why would I do that if he were to die?
It would be turning him into God.
The safer play is to pray directly to the Lord Jesus Christ (Which is what Scripture shows us).

The necromancy charges have been addressed elsewhere in this thread.

I said to you that it is CLOSE to necromancy. Yet, "spiritualism" which is a general term for communicating with the dead is associated with mediums, and necromancy, etc.

No-one is forced to pray to the saints.

Catholics teach Mary is co-redeemer along with Christ.

In Matthew 11:11 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Now, according to Jesus, who is the greatest?
Is it Mary? No. It is John the Baptist who is the greatest.

Actually, praying to the saints is a very small part of the Catholic life. Mary is referenced twice in the Mass, and no prayer in the Mass is addressed to her. The closest you get is if the priest throws in a "Hail Mary" at the end of the sermon, or singing the "Hail, holy Queen" after Mass.

Okay. You say she is a queen. You have a rosary and hail Marys. You have statues of her everywhere and we see many Catholics bow down to statues of her. Come on now. Who are ya kidding?

And when talking about the saints, Mary do have a different and elevated position. Christ was 'mediated' to the world through her. Christ took his flesh from her. Christ loved his mother. And as the Humanity of Christ never ceased, Mary is still his mother. In this sense, she is the Mediatrix. And also in the other sense (carrying our prayers to God).

If you only feel comfortable praying directly to God or to Christ, there's nothing wrong with that. But we believe that God has given us the option to ask the saints, who we might identify with and relate to. This is the natural consequence of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. They are alive in Christ, and are probably better at praying, since in Heaven they are not under the curse of sin.

I remember when I was a kid. I remember talking with a childhood friend of mine who said he prayed to Mary and it was so good. I told him to pray only to God. This was long before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. But I knew enough about prayer in my liberal Christian home to know that you pray to God alone. I told him to pray to God. But he didn't want to do that. Mary was more effective for him in his prayers. So yes. Mary can take the place of God. Don't kid yourself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem about what you believe jason is that us Catholics believe in Apostolic / Sacred Tradition. Sola Scripture is like trying to carry a bucket of water but without the bucket!

Jesus said put your treasures in Heaven and not on this Earth, right?
Does not Scripture say that we are the temple of God?
Yet, we have massive structures built in the RCC and great accumlation of wealth.
Yes, at one time God allowed temples to be built.
But we are under a New Covenant, with new commands.

Jesus also said to beware scribes who love to go about in long flowing robes and seek attention. When I read that verse in Scripture I cannot help but to think of popes through out history and even now. They love attention and go about in long flowing robes. This alone should be reason enough to throw out Catholicism. But there is even more. So much more that makes it obvious that what they do is not even remotely biblical,, my friend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Catholics do not worship statues.
But DOES (Exodus 20:3-5) FORBID MAKING STATUES, IMAGES & ART?
Absolutely not......unless you make nonesense of other passages.
Only 5 chapters later (in God's instructions for The Ark of The Covenent) God TELLS them to create graven images!

(1)In Exodus 25:18-20, God COMMANDS Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. " And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. "

(2)God also gave directions for images and animals as decoration of the temple and placed cheribum on the ark of the covenant. 1Kings 7:27 "Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames, and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."

(3) God commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.

(4)God had Moses create a staff with a serpent at the top. People looking at it were cured. According to Protestant critics of Catholics this was idolatory.

Catholics do not "worship" images. Catholic doctrine forbids that. We "use" them as reminders; and to focus our attention.
Do you use images of your family to remind you to think of them? Have you ever kissed a photo or talked to it, or said "I love you"? I have: but I was not "worshipping" (or even "loving") the paper! It directed my thoughts to the person it represents.
Have you never used any prayer aid or prayer-reminder for focus? When I kiss a crucifix I am using my body to cause my mind to love & thank Jesus; I am not worshipping the material it's made of. It's even more useful to have images of what we have not seen (e.g. Mary) to give our mind's imagination a path to contemplation (e.g. of our Mother Mary in Heaven).

You have to remember, that at the time of the Mosaic Law, people literally thought they could literally "make" powerful Gods & worship them. The problem was that, for the Jews (with their "abstract God") they lacked an easy prayer-focus and the people fell away easily.
Our danger of falling into idolatory today is not statuary but MONEY, POWER, ADDICTIONS etc.
That Mosaic situation is remedied by God's INCARNATION in Christ. God has given us images of Himself.....
(1)In The God-Man Christ,
(2)In "The Father-God"
(3)The Holy Spirit as Dove/Tongues-of-fire. God himself gave us these images!
And on the shroud of Turin I believe God has actually given us an image of Himself/Christ. What do you make of the image on the shroud? Do you ignore it? Do you mock it? Do you say to God "You can't do that" Or would you venerate it as I would? If you were before this cloth, how would you treat it?

CRECHE/CRIB? Do you have a Christmas Creche? So do you have a statue of Mary in your Church for a month? Would it be OK to look at her there & think..."Thank you Mary for bringing Jesus into this world"? If you looked at Mary with Jesus in the creche, and said...... "Hail full of grace, the Lord is with with thee"...."blessed art thou amongst women" and "all generations shall indeed call you blessed" for you are "the handmaid of the Lord" that "magnifies the Lord" and brings Him forth into the world by the power of your spouse The holy Spirit...... You would have just quoted a lot of scripture from Luke! Would this be "praying to Mary"?
The early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs. They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
in the OT in 2 Kings 13, a dead man comes back to life after touching the bones of the prophet Elisha.
In Acts; "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."
In Mark 5:25-34 A woman is healed by touching Jesus' garment. "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?” Jesus healed a blind man using mud & spit.

Protestantism has tended to DIS-incarnate Christianity sometimes to the point of Gnosticism. It became about reading, hearing, knowledge & thinking.....a Head religion.
This was (over)-compensated for in 19 Century Revivalism up to the moment, which accentuates emotional satisfactions in worship & prayer.

Catholicism is more about growing in sanctity/holiness, allowing the real, living Jesus in The Eucharist into us.... to transform us. Since God has taken flesh in Christ, Catholic Christianity recognises that "The Flesh" is blessed by God too. So we are comfortable using our bodies (and material aids).....
It's to HELP us "worship in the spirit". It's NOT INSTEAD of worshipping in the spirit. (It's another "Both/And" )
Have uou have been indoctrinated to "see" idolatory, where there is love & honour being expressed with our bodies?
It is another typical "EITHER/OR" Protestant dichotomy. We worship with our bodies to HELP us "worship in the spirit". It's NOT INSTEAD of "worship in the spirit." HUMANS are BODY & SPIRIT Since Jesus became incarnate even our bodies are holy and are rightly used in worship.

Please understand that I agree that Catholics do not worship statues or Mary and the saints. I have also defended Catholics in this thread regarding that very topic. I’m simply saying that God said not to make statues and bow to them. Yes I have pictures at home but I don’t bow to them. I have a rather large picture of Mary hanging on my wall in my living room. I don’t see anything wrong with pictures or statues I just see a problem with bowing or kneeling before them. As for the statues that God commanded to make that is a direct commandment from God. If God had commanded to make statues of Mary and the saints and commanded to bow to them then it would be fine but He didn’t. God bless you fellow Christian

 

[meconstant3402]

The "saints" are just friends of Christ. In the Gospel, certain Greeks asked James and John to ask the Lord if they could see Him. So the disciples go to Christ who responds that He is being glorified. At another time one of the disciples, I think it is Nathaniel asks another disciple about Jesus. I think
it is clear that heaven is a place of many friends. Why not ask one of the friends to take you to Jesus? Maybe it is the Lord's will that His friends should handle some of His affairs. They do in the Gospel. His friends are given even the power to forgive sins. And certainly friends take people to Jesus in the Gospel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My wife brings up a good point about those who have gone ahead of us. The Bible says that in heaven there will be no more sorrow. No more crying or pain. That is either truth or lie. As she said, if her mother was looking down from heaven at what was going on between her and her siblings there was no way she could not be hurting. When a man stole my brothers truck and his lifeless body and drove to a bridge, stole all his belongings, and then left him laying there for the ants and dogs I tell you my brother would have been in grievous and sorrowful pain at seeing the anguish of my parents after learning of that, and even for the soul of the man who did it. Why would Jesus go to prepare a place for us, declare the end of sorrow and pain there, and then let us look down upon our kin and watch them suffer and be able to do nothing about it? I think it is too complex of a question for me to answer. I prefer to ask my church family, and my earthly family to pray for us. To prepare a prayer list and keep it and add our prayers to those who are also listening for the Lords loving response. That is sufficient, that is biblical, and I do not believe that our Lord will hold it against me if I don't pray to the saints because I pray to our Father in the name of His only begotten Son, Jesus. I am comforted by knowing that our Lord has given us permission to leave all things in His capable hands while He still expects us to follow the path He has laid out, and when we don't understand something then to be patient and loving and kind.

Perhaps they rejoiced in his death because they realized his suffering in this world was finished and he was finally coming to be with them and The Lord in paradise forever. Death is not something to grieve for Christians it is something to rejoice in.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please understand that I agree that Catholics do not worship statues or Mary and the saints. I have also defended Catholics in this thread regarding that very topic. I’m simply saying that God said not to make statues and bow to them. Yes I have pictures at home but I don’t bow to them. I have a rather large picture of Mary hanging on my wall in my living room. I don’t see anything wrong with pictures or statues I just see a problem with bowing or kneeling before them. As for the statues that God commanded to make that is a direct commandment from God. If God had commanded to make statues of Mary and the saints and commanded to bow to them then it would be fine but He didn’t. God bless you fellow Christian

Indeed.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them," (Exodus 20:4-5).

Somehow in the listing of the 10 commandments, this second command is removed from the Catholic's list of the 10.

The Catholics version of the 10 commandments.

1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (Note: This is wrong. This is not the second commandment. This should be "do not make any graven image and bow down before it").
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods

I find it is a little suspicious that the very command that we are debating over is removed from the Catholic's 10 commandments.

Source:
The True Ten Commandments | Catholic Answers

 

[wilts43]

How does the prayers of the saints before the alter of God (Which does not talk about the saints being a live or dead) prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura?

Again, you cannot prove that Catholic sacred tradition is divine in origin like the Holy Scriptures (i.e. the Bible). I created a blogger article that shows just the tip of the iceberg of some evidences that back up God's Word in being divine.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture.

It is Bibliolatry to conflate & equate "God's Word" with "The Bible"
It is a routine error of Protestants.
"God's Word" is...

(1)Jesus Christ....The Incarnate Word

(2) The Teachings of His delegates/Apostles. (Acts 2:42)
The Oral Tradition
"Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
"Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter" (2 Thess 2:15)
"Shun those acting not according to tradition" (2 Thess 3:6)
"No prophecy is a matter of private" interpretation (2 Pet 1:20)
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25) ie Oral Tradition
"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35) Paul clearly refers to oral tradition.....since these words of Jesus are not in The Gospels

"the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)
"They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to the prayers.
The Catholic Church preached the Gospel without The Bible for 350 years. If you listened to Jesus (The Word of God), you would listen to his Church. (Luke 10:16) "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
"(Matt 28:18-) "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

Apparently Jesus did it wrong. He shouldn't have had Apostles who appointed Bishops, Deacons & Presbyters (Elders/Priests)....forming a growing body of Apostolic-teachers under authority. He shouldn't have refounded The Messianic Davidic Kingdom with Davidic Steward (Matt 16:18-19 & Is 22:19-23)
Jesus should have got out his carpenter-kit & built the Printing Press so that Protestantism could have been invented 1500 years before it arrived!
Then He should have said ...."Now let's write The Book" Then He could have miraculously caused universal literacy .

(3)Finally; the written part of this oral tradition which was selected & compiled by The Catholic church circa 400 AD to regulate which books could be read from in The Holy Mass.
This Library of diverse works with a highly-selected addition (called "The New Testament") became known as "The Bible".

I could point to many, many, many problems with the man-made tradition of "Sola Scriptura"
But the first & most fundamental is that.... Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in The Bible!
Therefore it fails its own test. It's not in The Bible....so it's not true.
It is a self-defeating assertion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is Bibliolatry to conflate & equate "God's Word" with "The Bible"
It is a routine error of Protestants.
"God's Word" is...

(1)Jesus Christ....The Incarnate Word

(2) The Teachings of His delegates/Apostles. (Acts 2:42)
The Oral Tradition
"Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
"Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter" (2 Thess 2:15)
"Shun those acting not according to tradition" (2 Thess 3:6)
"No prophecy is a matter of private" interpretation (2 Pet 1:20)
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25) ie Oral Tradition
"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35) Paul clearly refers to oral tradition.....since these words of Jesus are not in The Gospels

"the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)
"They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to the prayers.
The Catholic Church preached the Gospel without The Bible for 350 years. If you listened to Jesus (The Word of God), you would listen to his Church. (Luke 10:16) "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
"(Matt 28:18-) "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

Apparently Jesus did it wrong. He shouldn't have had Apostles who appointed Bishops, Deacons & Presbyters (Elders/Priests)....forming a growing body of Apostolic-teachers under authority. He shouldn't have refounded The Messianic Davidic Kingdom with Davidic Steward (Matt 16:18-19 & Is 22:19-23)
Jesus should have got out his carpenter-kit & built the Printing Press so that Protestantism could have been invented 1500 years before it arrived!
Then He should have said ...."Now let's write The Book" Then He could have miraculously caused universal literacy .

(3)Finally; the written part of this oral tradition which was selected & compiled by The Catholic church circa 400 AD to regulate which books could be read from in The Holy Mass.
This Library of diverse works with a highly-selected addition (called "The New Testament") became known as "The Bible".

I could point to many, many, many problems with the man-made tradition of "Sola Scriptura"
But the first & most fundamental is that.... Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in The Bible!
Therefore it fails its own test. It's not in The Bible....so it's not true.
It is a self-defeating assertion.

Bibliolatry would be somebody bowing down before a book and claiming that the book itself is God and that He is not spirit. It would be praying to a book instead of God in spirit and in truth.

Scripture does say that God magnifies His Word above His name. So His Word is very important. Scripture says thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

David said he hid God's word in his heart so that he may not sin against God.

Christians treat God's Word as a love letter. For example: It would be like a woman who received a love letter from her fiance from another country. She would cherish that letter because of her love for him. But if she started to take the letter out on dates and talk to the letter and kiss the letter, then you got a problem.

So your accusation is simply baseless my friend.
You are just mindlessly hitting the "You believe in Bibliolatry" button without really any real basis for such a conclusion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is Bibliolatry to conflate & equate "God's Word" with "The Bible"
It is a routine error of Protestants.
"God's Word" is...

(1)Jesus Christ....The Incarnate Word

(2) The Teachings of His delegates/Apostles. (Acts 2:42)
The Oral Tradition
"Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
"Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter" (2 Thess 2:15)
"Shun those acting not according to tradition" (2 Thess 3:6)
"No prophecy is a matter of private" interpretation (2 Pet 1:20)
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25) ie Oral Tradition
"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35) Paul clearly refers to oral tradition.....since these words of Jesus are not in The Gospels

"the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)
"They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to the prayers.
The Catholic Church preached the Gospel without The Bible for 350 years. If you listened to Jesus (The Word of God), you would listen to his Church. (Luke 10:16) "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
"(Matt 28:18-) "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

Apparently Jesus did it wrong. He shouldn't have had Apostles who appointed Bishops, Deacons & Presbyters (Elders/Priests)....forming a growing body of Apostolic-teachers under authority. He shouldn't have refounded The Messianic Davidic Kingdom with Davidic Steward (Matt 16:18-19 & Is 22:19-23)
Jesus should have got out his carpenter-kit & built the Printing Press so that Protestantism could have been invented 1500 years before it arrived!
Then He should have said ...."Now let's write The Book" Then He could have miraculously caused universal literacy .

(3)Finally; the written part of this oral tradition which was selected & compiled by The Catholic church circa 400 AD to regulate which books could be read from in The Holy Mass.
This Library of diverse works with a highly-selected addition (called "The New Testament") became known as "The Bible".

I could point to many, many, many problems with the man-made tradition of "Sola Scriptura"
But the first & most fundamental is that.... Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in The Bible!
Therefore it fails its own test. It's not in The Bible....so it's not true.
It is a self-defeating assertion.

St Iranaeus said that understanding of tradition is not necessary to understand the scriptures.

 

[wilts43]

Indeed.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them," (Exodus 20:4-5).

Somehow in the listing of the 10 commandments, this second command is removed from the Catholic's list of the 10.

The Catholics version of the 10 commandments.

1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (Note: This is wrong. This is not the second commandment. This should be "do not make any graven image and bow down before it").
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods

I find it is a little suspicious that the very command that we are debating over is removed from the Catholic's 10 commandments.

Source:
The True Ten Commandments | Catholic Answers

In The Bible.....The Commandments are not numbered.
So there is no right or wrong numbering.
You are placing your (Protestant) Tradition above The Bible.....and looking for suspiciously for evil where there is none.
And bear in mind The Lutherans have the same numbering as Catholics, so this should not be a Catholic/Protestant issue

RE The Use of Statues
I have answered this fully (& biblically) in Post 440
If you disagree with anything please reply to that Post

 

[wilts43]

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin (1 Timothy 2:5). It is also awfully close to necromancy in the fact that it is a two way conversation with the dead. Also, how can saints answer millions of prayers? Are they God and or did God turn them into being like God? Prayer is something only due to God because God is the only One who has such a power. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find examples of saints praying to dead believers, as well. All this should tell you that what they are doing is not correct. Then there are the other things they do which are not Biblical, as well. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture. Exodus 20 forbids the making of statues and bowing to them - Nothing is said if you worship it or not; And yet, we see Catholics make statues and bow themselves to them. Jesus said that the Scribes seek to go about in long flowing robes and seek after attention. Does that make you think of somebody in the Catholic church?

Where does is say, in The Bible, "Everything has to be in The Bible"?

 

[Mark_Sam]

Worship is giving glory to God, no? Do we not give God glory by praying to Him?

Yes. And honouring his saints is - I believe - also a way of giving glory to God.

Catholics teach Mary is co-redeemer along with Christ.

Again, that is up for debate, as it has not been dogmatically defined. And I personally think that the titles of New Eve and Mother of the Church are more appropriate for Mary. (I do think that the title of Co-redemptrix is true in some sense, but that is really besides the point here).

Okay. You say she is a queen. You have a rosary and hail Marys. You have statues of her everywhere and we see many Catholics bow down to statues of her. Come on now. Who are ya kidding?

Catholicism, as we know it today, was formed in a culture where people used their whole body to express themselves. We all have the stereotype of Italians talking with their hands. Again, I have some Thai friends, and they have the portrait of their king prominently displayed in their home, and show his portrait respect and honour. And they are not idolaters. I understand your point, I really do. But I really do think that this is an instance were culture plays a big role. And if we honour an earthly king so, how much more the queen in Heaven?

As for Mary as queen, it is true that we call her "Queen of Heaven" (just like the pagan goddess in Jeremiah, we know ...) because of her relationship with Christ. In the Ancient World, the mother of the king was the queen, since, the king could have multiple wives. Mary, being the Mother of the King of Heaven, is therefore logically the Queen of Heaven.

 

[wilts43]

Indeed.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them," (Exodus 20:4-5).

Somehow in the listing of the 10 commandments, this second command is removed from the Catholic's list of the 10.

The Catholics version of the 10 commandments.

1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (Note: This is wrong. This is not the second commandment. This should be "do not make any graven image and bow down before it").
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods

I find it is a little suspicious that the very command that we are debating over is removed from the Catholic's 10 commandments.

Source:
The True Ten Commandments | Catholic Answers

In The Bible.....The Commandments are not numbered.
So there is no right or wrong numbering.
You are placing your (Protestant) Tradition above The Bible.....and looking for suspiciously for evil where there is none.
And bear in mind The Lutherans have the same numbering as Catholics, so this should not be a Catholic/Protestant issue