Praying to Saints

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No the verse concerning necromancy mentions the use of a medium or witchcraft. So prayers don’t fall into that category. The definition of mediator and intercession are different. A mediator is someone who intercedes in an argument or dispute for reconciliation. Intercession is someone who intervened on someone else’s behalf. Not necessarily for reconciliation.

The underline problem is communicating with the dead. It should be obvious.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Exodus 20 says this
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Isaiah 8
19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Which is why there is no "communion with the DEAD" in the Bible

Isaiah specifically mentions the use of mediums which is referring to necromancy. We’re Moses and Elijah dead when they appeared before the apostles and talked with Jesus?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you define "Protestantism" on the basis of "Once saved..."
One might trace this as following from Calvin's double-predestination & the total depravity of man.....but Luther didn't hold to it.
Is not the essence of Protestantism in the "Protest" at The Catholic Church and the substitution of its Apostolic-Authority & Ecclesiology, with the Solas (which vary in number)
The supposed new authority was "Scripture Alone".
But I believe this was only tenable for Luther whilst he believed "everybody would see it his way."
But "scripture alone" turned out to be a figleaf for what the ego of every reader could find in it.
The result is Protestant Babel.

Hence, why I don’t believe in Protestantism. My belief in the Scriptures did not originate from Protestantism. I mean, do you even know that Catholics had prevented the people from knowing the Bible? They spoke in Latin and yet the people (as a whole) did not know how to understand Latin. Things really have not changed much. Now, you are seeking to undermine God’s Word in a different way today.
 
Upvote 0

chilehed

Veteran
Jul 31, 2003
4,710
1,384
63
Michigan
✟236,715.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Were that true the RCC would have no restrictions on "praying to the living".
What specific restrictions are you referring to? This sounds like something that someone totally made up.

-- what is more no body does this in the Bible when it comes to praying to the dead.
That's it? You don't see anyone doing it in the bible? Where in the world do you get the loony idea that we can't do anything unless someone in the bible did it? What ever happened to Christian freedom? - no: as a "bible only" kind of guy, if you want to claim that something is wrong to do you need to show where it's forbidden in the bible. And you can't show that asking our brethren in heaven for their prayers is forbidden in the bible, because it's not there. It's a false tradition of men.

Also - you're saying that those who are alive in Christ are actually dead? That there is death in heaven, in the very presence of God? Really? That's absurd, it's a completely anti-biblical and heretical thing to say.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

chihwahli

Newbie
Apr 29, 2012
96
18
✟20,987.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I believe that God is the only source for everything. Any other way is and could be very dangerous.

In the bible in acts 14 is where some people said that Paul and one other Christian were Gods because they healed a person. But Paul tore his clothes from his body. Paul said turn form the worthless things and turn to God. He also said that it's God who made the sea and heaven.

So you see, one example , where Paul diverts the Glory that people want to give him towards God!
This is the only way to do it right. Because the healing and all blessings never, NEVER originate from humans! They come / originate from God. God is the source! Men or women are never the source.

If you pray to someone , that means you acknowledge that , that person is higher, more powerfull , more smarter, more important than you. Because only such person can help you. Thus if you pray to a person, that person gets the honor. It is just like in ancient greek when they pray to all those false gods. If you do not pray to God directly, that means God is robbed of glory.

I started to divert any thanks from healng prayers, etc , back to God our Lord Jesus, when people thank me. It is not my power that someone is healed. It is God in me that makes these things possible.

To make it even more clear: All things we have are from God as well!
Bible Romans 11:36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

Everything is made to glorify God. Everything comes from God!

So if someone is being prayed to, the only thing we have to do is pass that thanks to God. We do not keep it! This is the main reason I never pray to humans, even if some are "promoted" to saints. In reality, everyone who follows Jesus is holy. It is by whose blood?? By Jesus' blood!
Not by any men's word or works! So no one can say he earned Holiness or take glory for being Holy!

And! The holy spirit is the only mediator between us humans and God. It is NOT the pope in Italy. Because Jesus said: I am going back to heaven and I will send someone to replace me! That person is the holy spirit! If someone would read the bible, then they would know the truth.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It is very apparent that there is no
What specific restrictions are you referring to? This sounds like something that someone totally made up.


That's it? You don't see anyone doing it in the bible? Where in the world do you get the loony idea that we can't do anything unless someone in the bible did it? What ever happened to Christian freedom? - no, if you want to claim that something is wrong to do you need to show where it's forbidden in the bible. And you can't show that asking our brethren in heaven for their prayers is forbidden in the bible, because it's not there. It's a false tradition of men.

Also - you're saying that those who are alive in Christ are actually dead? That there is death in heaven, in the very presence of God? Really? That's absurd, it's completely anti-biblical and heretical thing to say.

Yes what he said is true therefore it is a sin to eat a cheeseburger on a Thursday afternoon at 5:47pm in Atlantis Georgia because it is not written in the scriptures!! ^_^
 
  • Haha
Reactions: chilehed
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Then there is no reason to pray to her if she is not in any way a mediator.



Worship is giving glory to God, no? Do we not give God glory by praying to Him?
See, I do not pray to my brother who is alive. Why would I do that if he were to die?
It would be turning him into God.
The safer play is to pray directly to the Lord Jesus Christ (Which is what Scripture shows us).



I said to you that it is CLOSE to necromancy. Yet, "spiritualism" which is a general term for communicating with the dead is associated with mediums, and necromancy, etc.



Catholics teach Mary is co-redeemer along with Christ.

In Matthew 11:11 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Now, according to Jesus, who is the greatest?
Is it Mary? No. It is John the Baptist who is the greatest.



Okay. You say she is a queen. You have a rosary and hail Marys. You have statues of her everywhere and we see many Catholics bow down to statues of her. Come on now. Who are ya kidding?



I remember when I was a kid. I remember talking with a childhood friend of mine who said he prayed to Mary and it was so good. I told him to pray only to God. This was long before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. But I knew enough about prayer in my liberal Christian home to know that you pray to God alone. I told him to pray to God. But he didn't want to do that. Mary was more effective for him in his prayers. So yes. Mary can take the place of God. Don't kid yourself.

There is a confusion caused by the different meanings ascribed to "Prayer" & "worship"
"To pray" originally meant "ask earnestly, beg, entreat,"
(See Pray | Origin and meaning of Pray by Online Etymology Dictionary)

Because Protestants only "ask God",.... the word "pray" has come to mean (in their minds) exclusively an address to God.
Catholics keep the older meaning. And I pray you understand this! (See! it even "sounds" old)

Remember God-is-Community (Trinitarian-Love)
Praying-for-one-another is loving-one-another, and this is the very essence of our becoming more like unto Christ & The Trinity......Communal Love.

Catholics believe the saints & Mary are alive with God in Heaven; & Revelations shows this. Why would we stop loving them now they are perfected in God?
And to love....is to relate to....and to relate to.... is to communicate with.

Protestants suffuse "prayer & worship"
Catholics understand they can be different.
In The Holy Mass we truly "worship" Christ, literally present on the Altar, and offer His eternal sacrifice on our behalf to The Father. (See Malachi 1:11)
At Eucharistic Adoration, or in visiting The Blessed Sacrament, we offer pure, unadulterated, usually silent, "worship".
Prayer can include worship & praise but also petitions & thanksgivings.

Worship?
In every Catholic & Orthodox Church The concecrated Communion bread is housed permanently in The Tabernacle.
Catholics (& Orthodox) believe this is the literal Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of the risen Jesus Christ. (Though beyond our usual senses).
In the time of Moses, God made an eternal covenant; that a pot of the manna was kept in the Ark-of-the-Covenant within the holy of holies of the Tabernacle-Tent; and "the bread of the presence" (or showbread) was also to be perpetually in the tabernacle, with an eternal lamp to show God's special presence. It was a sacred space set aside as God's dwelling-place amongst men....and only The High Priest could enter.
This was all transferred to the Temple in Jerusalem.....until it was destroyed in 70 AD......shortly after Christ's Passion.....when the Temple-Curtain was riven so all could enter.
Catholics believe this eternal covenant is now continued, fulfilled and amplified in Jesus' holy presence in the Tabernacle of every Catholic & Orthodox Church.
That's why The Temple is no more....because what made it holy is on a street near you!
Catholic Churches are left open wherever possible for anyone to visit, worship & encounter Christ.
Try it.
---------------------
Do you believe Jesus is "The Messiah"
If so, you know He is the restored Davidic King, who will fulfill all the prophecies & whose kingdom shall encompass all The Nations.
And you know in The Books of Kings each King is announced with HIS MOTHER......BECAUSE THE DAVIDIC-KING'S MOTHER WAS HIS QUEEN.
And from the first "son-of-David" (Solomon) The King had His Mother's throne set beside his own and "He would not refuse her requests"
The Davidic-Kings Queen-Mother had a role ....Gebirah. Her job was to intercede for her people.
And John depicts Mary doing Gebirah at Cana
John 2:3-5 "When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
(a)Why didn't the hosts "Go straight to Jesus"?
(b)Why does Jesus call Mary "Woman"? Because that was the name of Eve before she fell, & Mary is The New Eve....New "mother of all the living"
(Either that or Jesus is breaking The Commandment to honour Mother)
(c)why does Jesus commence His ministry at her request even though "My hour has not yet come".....BECAUSE SHE IS HIS GEBIRAH-QUEEN! When she pleads for the people The King will never refuse her.

And read Revelations 11:19 through 12 (Chapter divisions are additions)
You have Mary shown in consecutive verses in all the types & roles she fulfills.
(a)God's Ark (she contain all the Ark contained in living form)
(b)Queen of Heaven
(c)Mother of the Messiah
(d)New Eve, opponent of Satan, as Gen3:15 The woman who with her seed will crush the serpent/dragon/satan
(e)Mother of those who follow God's commandments (The Church)
i.e.Mother of "The Body of Christ" (Ecclesially & corporeally)

All fantastically beyond coincidence or accident. And yet cryptic enough to veil it from those who will not see.

I see on the internet Protestants wondering why/how "The Ark" is in Heaven with God in Revelations 11:19 ?..... No mystery at all: It's Mary! and the subsequent verses reiterate this truth.
The Ark is "lost" because it has been replaced & fulfilled. The old "Ark-of-the-Covenant" was only a pre-figure of Mary. She contains what it contained, & Luke's Visitation account is a replay of The Visitation of The Ark to "The Hill Country of Judea" (2 Samuel 6)....where David (cf John the Baptist) leap before it.


And The Temple is destroyed ......because what made it Holy is in the Tabernacle of every Catholic (& Orthodox) Church....on a street near you....left open so you can visit since the curtain was torn.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sadly any attempt to defend sola scriptura fails on simple logic, let alone anything else.
It is easily demonstrable as false, from history , scripture and simple logic.

I will not go line for line on scripture there is little point in so many words..
But to make following incontestable statements.
1/ You dig up as usual the scriptural statements that say in essence "scripture is valuable"- sure it is - none disagree but that is NOT the issue. That is not the same "all truth is in scripture" (or variants of that - sola scriptura ) is not the s ame logical proposition as "all in scripture is truth" (or variants of that - which is what scripture says) (you use your own definition - i dont hold to any of them, they all fail on simple logic)

2/ Your reference to revelations - in essence "all prophecy is in scripture" refers to prophecy not truth. Sola scriptura is based on truth not prophecy.

Indeed the logical proof that sola scriptura is false can be done both in positive and negative.

3/ You declare sola scriptura as a statement of essential truth on which you base all furtherconclusion about faith.
But it conflicts with your own definition and so is self refuting.
Because IF you declare sola scriptura as an essential truth - and the definition of sola scriptura is all essential truth is in scripture - then scripture has to SAY PRECISELY THAT - all essential truth is in scripture without which it fails to contain your essential truth. It is logically self defeating.

4/ Worse in the negative case sola scriptura is also self defeating, because scripture ITSELF declares truth outside itself. It declares "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" which is the "household of God" which we know from OT means PHYSICAL church. . If it had meant "pillar of truth is scripture" it would have said so. It says "hold true to tradition we taught you by word of mouth" - and of disputes it says "go tell it to the church"

5/ Worse still for sola scriptura buffs, is that scripture did not select itself. So what is scripture ? History records - It was selected under guidance and authority of the church, and indeed early canons like Marcions were rejected by the church! It is only by AUTHORITY of the church you even know what is scripture.

It is also easily disproven by history in both positive and negative cases.
6/ Jesus didnt give us a book, he gave us apostles and successors to hand on the truth. Which is why Paul says "stay true to tradition we taught you" - indeed study the early fathers, and you see in the writings of those taught by apostles the succession bishops empowered to hand on the truth and persform sacraments, (eg ignatius, iraneus) and that in against heresies Iraneus clearly states that you know truth by that from the church at Rome , because of Peter!

So historically the church AD, WAS NOT sola scriptura. Provably not.

7/ Tradition is not a dcotrine. It is the way Jesus decided he wanted the faith handed down by succession.
He also gave the apostles jointly and peter alone the power to "Bind and loose" - ie rule on doctrine. Which is why the "Pillar of truth is the church"

8/ thats why when you have a dispute ,scripture tells you to tell it to the church as authority.

9/ And in the negative case those who advocate sola scriptura have proven a massive #FAIL. The proof of the pudding shows it is not.

They DISAGREE on every material aspect of doctrine with mutually exclusive interpretations of everything from eucharist to baptism, marriage to life issues, priesthood to LGBT, even salvation and godhead.
Luther lamented of the monster he created "there are now as many doctrines as heads"", it is the greatest scandal" "every milkmaid now has their own doctrine.
The history of the reformation proving scripture is not enough. Or why do you all disagree on doctrine? Sola scriptura launched 10000 schsisms!

In conclusion the only ones who hold to sola scriptura are those with inadequate grasp of early church history. And I can only suggest they read such as ignatius to Smyrneans, or Iraneus book III against heresies, indeed study the history of the Canon (and the rejection and acceptance By ROME of canons in the early church.

If all you have is the words. You do not have the word of God - tradition and authority are needed to interpret it correctly.

"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" quote newman, and still as valid today.


Here is a rather lengthy article I wrote on this one.

A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

Sola Scriptura is the position that you can trust Scripture and Scripture alone as your sole authority for your faith and life. That the revelation known as the Bible can be trusted as your final word of authority for knowing God, salvation, true love, right living, and truth. Now, while there may be other books, letters, or epistles mentioned in Scripture that we don't have currently, they are not a part of the cannon of God's Word today, for there is no other written texts or revelations that is needed besides the Bible for all spiritual matters. For the Bible is unlike any other book in human history. It is clearly a book that is divine in origin that is backed up by many evidences in Science and History.

Now, some might object and point out that you can't prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture because such a position wouldn't have existed until the close of Revelation because the apostles were still speaking and writing the Word of God. However, that is not Sola Scriptura, though. Sola Scriptura is putting your faith in the written Word of God and believing it is suffient for all matters concerning one's faith in God. But what about the spoken Word of God? Does that not conflict with Sola Scriptura? No. First, the spoken Word of God was confirmed by the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). Second, one truth (the Spoken Word of God) was not in conflict with another truth (i.e. the Written Word of God). They both breathed in harmony until one passed away. In other words, picture it in your mind that there are two branches or sticks. One branch represents the Spoken Word and the other branch represents the Written Word. Now imagine one of those branches starting to vanish away out of thin air until it is gone. Is the one branch that remains any different just because the other branch is gone? Yeah, but wouldn't Sola Scriptura only exist until after the close of Revelation with Revelation 22:18-19 because you can't add anymore words to God's Word? No. This is not an exclusive teaching within Scripture; For the Bible teaches elsewhere that we are not to add to the written Word of God, too (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Deuteronomy 12:32) (Proverbs 30:5-6).

Anyways, the purpose of this study is to provide passages to help the reader in possessing Scripture so that they can trust in one divinely inspired written revelation or book (i.e. the Bible) for all spiritual matters in regards to having love, faith, and salvation in Him.

Also, before we examine this study, it is important to note that there are 3 major Words spoken about within Scripture that are connected to one another. There is the:

(1) Living Word of God (Jesus),
(2) Spoken Word of God (Either from God or His people),
(3) Written Word of God (Scripture).

All three are perfect and will endure for forever.
All three are tied together and are always connected.

The Biblical Case for Sola Scriptura:

I. All Scripture is Profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Righteous Teaching.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

A. All Scripture is profitable:

(a) for doctrine, (because)
~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).
(b) for correction (and)
(c) for instruction in righteousness,
(It is sufficient in righteous training because):
~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalms 119:11)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:
(d) May be perfect.
(e) Completely furnished unto all good works.
~ (1) For speaking Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)
(In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect andcomplete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in (1) doctrine, (2)correction, and (3) training in righteousness. All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to beperfect and completeunto all good works. Not some good works. But allgood works. No oral Words of God alone were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.

For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?

II. Do Not Add or Take Away or Go Beyond What is Written:

A. Do Not Add or Take Away From God's Word -

Revelation 22:18-19
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Before you say it, yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking in context of the book of Revelation. However, we have to think about this logically, though. If you can't add any words to the book of Revelation, then you can't add any words to the Bible, too. Why? Well, the book of Revelation is the end of the Bible. It is the close of the whole book known as the Bible. It is the end. This is why I believe Revelation 22:18-19 is prophetic in the fact that it has a secondary fulfillment of speaking about "this book" in reference to "Revelation" in being a part of the book known as the Bible. How so? Well, there are several passages that have a double fulfillment to them. Here is one them:

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

First Fulfillment (That was in the Past):
Reference to the exodus of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

Secondary Fulfillment (That was in the Future):
Reference to the Love of God calling his Son back to the comparative safety in Egypt so that he might die for his people. Matthew 2:15 - "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Also, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus gives His assessment of various churches. In these chapters, Jesus spoke of real churches that existed at the time when John written the book of Revelation, but also to the spiritual state of churches thru out time and today, too. For one of the churches is told to repent or they will go thru the tribulation. For obviously there has been Luke warm churches thru out history and today like the Laodician church.

Besides, there are hundreds of double fulfillment passages in the Bible. How so? Well, the "Typifications of Christ" in the Old Testament are essentially double fulfillment type passages (See this forum thread here to check them out). In fact, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). In other words, the OT Scriptures are a double fulfilment. For the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of the events of it's time and they also spoke about Jesus Christ, too; For Jesus said so Himself.

Also, consider the prophecy in the book of Daniel which was to seal up vision and prophecy versus the prophecy of the book of Revelation which is not sealed.

~ Daniel's End Times prophecy speaks of the events in Revelation. These prophecies of the End Times (that were in a book, i.e. scroll) were to be sealed up and closed (Daniel 12:4) because they were a far way off because Jesus still needed to come to save His people from their sins.

Revelation 22:10 mentions the spirit of prophecy that the book is open.

~ Now, the book is open whereby the things within Revelation (That Daniel also talks about) is exposed so that it will be fulfilled in bringing in the End with Christ's return.

For the entire book of Revelation is about the End Times leading up to Christ's return.

For the end of Revelation closes with Jesus saying,

"Surely I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20).

This means that we should be looking to Jesus return and not some new Revelation.

Paul said if we or an angel from heaven preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8). It is strange that both the Mormon and the Muslim religion are founded on a revelation that comes from angels. Yet the Bible warns against this very thing.

In fact, Jesus Christ commanded that we as believers were to preach this gospel unto all the world (or all nations) until Christ's return.

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is also what we see in Revelation. For this same gospel message was still going out to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (That is still an ongoing process today).

Revelation 14:6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

In other words, God knew that the book of Revelation was going to be a part of the Bible. For surely God does not want us accepting new revelations or additional written works to add to the Bible like with the book of Mormon, the Koran, the added oral traditions of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church), and or the added writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For it is not a coincidence that this warning in Revelation 22 is at the close of our Bibles. In other words, the new reader (Who is unaware that the Bible is made up of 66 books) would understand that you are not to add or subtract from the book (i.e. the Bible) that they were reading. For God obviously intended Scripture to be compiled into one book known as the Bible. For Christians today do regard the Bible as one book, for it is published as one book and it is not generally published into 66 individual books or a 66 book volume set. There are no 66 individual old manuscripts in their original form anymore; And God does not exist in the past abiding with these old manuscripts. These manuscripts are dead and gone. For they were written in a language that is dead. All these things are in the past. However, our God is not a God who just exists in the past. Our God is present and ever active with His people today. For our God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He works with His people who are alive with the written Revelation known as the Bible. Adding any new words to that revelation would be adding to God's Holy written Word as it currently exists with His people who live today.

B. Warning Against Altering God's Word is Confirmed in Old Testament:

Forbidding in altering God's Word in Revelation 22:18-19 can also be seen in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 which says not to add or take away from the words of God's commands. This was the written Word. The Law. God did not want His words being changed or altered in any way by adding or taking away from His words. In fact, if somebody were to try and destroy God's Word, we see that God would protect or preserve His Word. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 36:22-32where king Jehoiakim burns the scroll in a fire (i.e. to eliminate God's Word) and then later God has Jeremiah re-create another roll that says the same thing. In other words, the written Word could not be destroyed by fire, just as the Living Word cannot be destroyed by fire. For the fourth who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends was the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). For even when Moses had broken or shattered the tablets of stone that had the direct hand written Word of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) on it (Exodus 32:19), the Lord our God had hand written them down on tablets of stone again (Exodus 34:1). For the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35). For Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35). Meaning, that Christ's words would be memorialized by being written down where they would not pass away (or be deleted by men).

C. Do Not Go Above What is Written on how we think about men:

The Bible says we are not to go above that which is written (concerning our thoughts of men). Granted, this verse is not all inclusive to the fact that we are not to go above Scripture on other matters, but what this passage does is show us a pattern that Scripture and Scripture alone is our sole authority on the faith and spiritual matters. It confirms that we are not to add or take away from God's Word.

1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

III. Scripture Can Help us to Know the Certainty of Christ's Teachings.

Luke sets out an order of declaration amongst the ministers of the Word to write out the events in order to Theophilus so that he might know for certain of the truth (on Christ's teachings) which he had been instructed.

Luke 1:1-4
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

IV. Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:

In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the armor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, Ephesians 6:16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

V. Spoken Word is confirmed by the Written Word. Acts 17:11

In Acts 17:11, we learn that the Bereans were more noble because they received the "Spoken Word of God" from Paul and Silas with an open mind but yet they searched the Scriptures (i.e. the Written Word of God) to see whether those things were so or not. So the "Spoken Word" is confirmed by the "Written Word." So the "Written Word" is a reliable authority that we can trust. For even Philip opened the heart of the Ethiopian’s understanding from a reading in Isaiah (Thereby confirming the Written Word of God) (Acts 8:26-35). Jesus had opened the disciple's understanding on the Scriptures when He was with them (Luke 24:32); And Paul had told the Corinthians that their words that they speak in Christ (i.e. the Spoken Word of God) were not like as with many others who had corrupted the Word of God (i.e. the Written Word of God) (2 Corinthians 2:17).

VI. 1 Corinthians 14:37 - What Paul had written is the Lord's commandments.

Paul had written to the Corinthians about how if anyone thought of themselves as spiritual or a prophet, they were to know that what he had written unto them was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In other words, the "Written of God" that came from Paul was the Lord's Commandments; And by the authority of the Lord: Paul gave commands to the brethren in doing many things (1 Corinthians 7:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6, 12) (1 Timothy 4:11) (1 Timothy 6:11, 12, 13, 14).

VII. The spoken/written Word is standard by which Jesus will Judge All Men.

John 12:48 essentially says, Christ will judge us by His Word in the last day.
Christ's spoken words have been memorialized within the Holy Scriptures for us to have faith in them. His words within the Bible will judge us in the last day.

In fact, the unsaved dead will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment in this life by what is written in various books of Judgment (Revelation 20:12). This shows us that the written Word of God has power and authority to judge just as the books of Judgment have power and authority to judge a person's actions on the last day.

For all believers will be judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12). This is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the royal Law of love under the New Testament (James 2:8) (Romans 13:8-10).

VIII. John's Gospel is sufficient alone for saving faith in Jesus Christ.

What is purpose of John's book or gospel?

John 20:30-31 says,
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Wrong. The Roman Catholic church came into being in 312 A.D... (And I use the word "Church" lightly.) Believers were first called "Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26), the Book of Acts was written in 80–90 AD.

This is easily proved false.
This is disproveable by indisputable history alone.
But it is a very common, pernicious & malicious falsehood, which I wish you would not propagate.

Try St Ignatius(35-107AD) of Antioch, bishop & martyr, ordained by St Peter & disciple of St John.....read for example CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (St. Ignatius)
His Epistle to The Smyrnaeans written whilst being walked to Rome to be eaten by lions.

(Attesting to:- Apostolic Succession.... calling them bishops.....authority......order...governance......literal eucharistic real presence...."Catholic Church")
This is written circa 105 AD and calls The Church "Catholic"
This is within the dates given for Acts with the first mention of "Christians"


Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. ........

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: chilehed
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,184.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
what does a psalm 82 reference dealing with God addressing the governing rulers of the time about their corruption have to do with dead saints omnisciently hearing all of our prayers?

What a strange question. Can it mean we are rival gods ? No. of course not. So, it can only mean that we shall share in Jesus' own divine life by his adoption of us as his brothers and sisters, as indeed scripture tells us, and you should have been aware of. If technically speaking, God could enable us to tell a mountain to relocate in the sea in this life, what might He not empower us to effect in heaven ?

As such, we would have access to the same faculty as Jesus, himself, to multitask in this way. Some NDE'ers have reported somehow simultaneously witnessing their life-review, both in their own person and in the person whom their good and bad acts affected. Just about all the NDE'ers report having a divine omniscience during their NDE, as have some mystics. In fact, in that most impressive NDE YouTube clip of Dr Joe Geraci, below, he states that he even became in some mysterious way the same love, peace, etc that he was experiencing :

 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

paul becke

Regular Member
Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,184.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
There are many references in the letters of the New Testament to requests to " pray for us" or " pray for each other" . So clearly yes, it is possible and useful.

Revelations explains that the prayers of saints are there at the altar of God. So asking them to pray for us is effective.
Do they hear us? We know we are surrounded by " great cloud of witnesses" and there is "more joy in heaven over a sinner that repents"

As for Mary, her role as intercessor with Jesus, is heralded in the OT by her position as davidic queen( i.e. Mother of king) - her influence demonstrated at the miracle of Cana Cana , but rebuked by our Lord because at that time his "time had not yet come", which it certainly has now. There is documentary evidence of the tradition - intercession of theotokos - ( e.g. Ryland's papyrus) long before the New Testament canon was concluded. And it was certainly believed by fathers at early councils.

In fact, they are rejecting sacred tradition, in favour of their own confection, namely, we mustn't pray to the departed saints (creating that new definition of idolatry). That is unambiguously heretical.
 
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I skimmed what you read and seen that you said Sola Scriptura is adulterous. Yet, we do not see the majority of Christians who revere the Bible as bowing down and praying to a book. God’s Word says Scripture is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. David hid God’s Word in his heart so that he would not sin against the Lord. Of course you have no case that Christians are worshiping the Bible. But you need to say this to deflect away from the fact that praying to saints and bowing down before statues is not adulterous.
I think you meant "idolatrous" not "adultrous"

What, do you think, is the essence of idolatry?

I think...
It is not in a list of do's & don't's
It is whenever we put something else as our primary concern over God.
In The Ancient Near East fear of the elements, & bad harvests meant they were prone to worship "magical" semi-deities.
Nowadays idolatry is more likely to consist in addictions to money, power, sex, gratifications and ideologies.
There can be a danger of putting a book above God.
Sola Scriptura is an unproved (& disproved) assertion, that can almost deify a set of writings, & shackle people against wider truth & the Living Word of God preached by His Church.

I think you may have demonstrated this......"Idolatry" isn't somehow in the use of religious art........it is far more profound. So if you avoid statues you can kid yourself you have no idols?
So, what do you believe is the essence of idolatry???
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think you meant "idolatrous" not "adultrous"

What, do you think, is the essence of idolatry?

I think...
It is not in a list of do's & don't's
It is whenever we put something else as our primary concern over God.
In The Ancient Near East fear of the elements, & bad harvests meant they were prone to worship "magical" semi-deities.
Nowadays idolatry is more likely to consist in addictions to money, power, sex, gratifications and ideologies.
There can be a danger of putting a book above God.
Sola Scriptura is an unproved (& disproved) assertion, that can almost deify a set of writings, & shackle people against wider truth & the Living Word of God preached by His Church.

I think you may have demonstrated this......"Idolatry" isn't somehow in the use of religious art........it is far more profound. So if you avoid statues you can kid yourself you have no idols?
So, what do you believe is the essence of idolatry???

All denominations disagree on scriptural interpretation. So which one is correct?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

paul becke

Regular Member
Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,184.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
According to the Bible, it is Christians who are saints. The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means consecrated to God. Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints, and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly.

Roman Catholicism teaches things that are not biblical, It's understanding of “saints” compared with the biblical teaching fit's not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint.

(Romans 16:2)
(Philippians 4:21)
(Ephesians 4:12)
(Ephesians 5:3)

You are wrong on both counts.

1) The RCC accepts the generic meaning of 'the saints' as the community of Christians, though, I believe,seldom, if ever, uses it* ;

2) She recognises that there would be innumerable saints who have not been, nor will be canonically recognised as such (except under that generic definition) during their life on this earth. For all the world, just like the Holy Family, poor people, considered by the more worldly among the ruling classes as being of no consequence, other than as myrmidons, drudges and drones, existing solely for their convenience. Part of the rustic or urban scenery.

The canonised saints are officially designated as such, solely for our edification and for the help of their prayers, herebelow, in this vale of tears. In the final analysis, indeed, I believe I read recently that it was not as certain as ex cathedra pronouncements, and in some cases, only enacted after lengthy prayers by the officiating pope.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think you meant "idolatrous" not "adultrous"

What, do you think, is the essence of idolatry?

I think...
It is not in a list of do's & don't's
It is whenever we put something else as our primary concern over God.
In The Ancient Near East fear of the elements, & bad harvests meant they were prone to worship "magical" semi-deities.
Nowadays idolatry is more likely to consist in addictions to money, power, sex, gratifications and ideologies.
There can be a danger of putting a book above God.
Sola Scriptura is an unproved (& disproved) assertion, that can almost deify a set of writings, & shackle people against wider truth & the Living Word of God preached by His Church.

I think you may have demonstrated this......"Idolatry" isn't somehow in the use of religious art........it is far more profound. So if you avoid statues you can kid yourself you have no idols?
So, what do you believe is the essence of idolatry???

It is common in Scripture for it to parallel the word “adultery” with idolatry.

See Hosea 4:12-14.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The canonised saints are officially designated as such, solely for our edification and for the help of their prayers, herebelow, in this vale of tears. In the final analysis, indeed, I believe I read recently that it was not as certain as ex cathedra pronouncements, and in some cases, only enacted after lengthy prayers by the officiating pope.

That seems right, considering that various of the canonized saints have been removed from the list, and it didn't provoke any crisis in the church.
 
Upvote 0

PanDeVida

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2007
878
339
✟42,102.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

Dreadnought, you and many, if not all protestants, you guys dreadtomuch, and forget that God created a family of Christians those now in heaven and we here on earth.

Dread, do you dread, Jesus parable, of the Rich Man and the poor man Lazarus? In Jesus parable here the poor man Lazarus was reclining on the bosom of Abraham, rather than God, our Lord's Father in heaven?

Dread, don't you see that even in heaven the saints cling to one another, like Abraham and the poor man, and it is no difference here that we Catholics cling to our saints in heaven.

Dread do you think Jesus Christ made a mistake by having the poor man Lazarus recline on the bosom of Abraham, rather than recline on the bosom of God His Father??? The Truth is regarding this parable, Jesus Christ sounds more like a Catholic than a Protestant. Amen Amen

Now if the Lord was not upset that Lazarus was reclining on the bosom of Abraham, rather than on God His Father, Christ will not be upset if we pray to the saints in Heaven.

How many of us Christians have run to their mother first when they want something, from their father. THIS IS WHAT A FAMILY IS ALL ABOUT.

Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, 28That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PanDeVida

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2007
878
339
✟42,102.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

Dreadnought, you and many, if not all protestants, you guys dreadtomuch, and forget that God created a family of Christians those now in heaven and we here on earth.

Dread, do you dread, Jesus parable, of the Rich Man and the poor man Lazarus? In Jesus parable here the poor man Lazarus was reclining on the bosom of Abraham, rather than God, our Lord's Father in heaven?

Dread, don't you see that even in heaven the saints cling to one another, like Abraham and the poor man, and it is no difference here that we Catholics cling to our saints in heaven.

Dread do you think Jesus Christ made a mistake by having the poor man Lazarus recline on the bosom of Abraham, rather than recline on the bosom of God His Father??? The Truth is regarding this parable, Jesus Christ sounds more like a Catholic than a Protestant. Amen Amen

Now if the Lord was not upset that Lazarus was reclining on the bosom of Abraham, rather than on God His Father, Christ will not be upset if we pray to the saints in Heaven.

How many of us Christians have run to their mother first when they want something, from their father. THIS IS WHAT A FAMILY IS ALL ABOUT.

Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, 28That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
 
Upvote 0

S.O.J.I.A.

Dynamic UNO
Nov 6, 2016
4,280
2,641
Michigan
✟98,714.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
What a strange question. Can it mean we are rival gods ? No. of course not. So, it can only mean that we shall share in Jesus' own divine life by his adoption of us as his brothers and sisters, as indeed scripture tells us, and you should have been aware of. If technically speaking, God could enable us to tell a mountain to relocate in the sea in this life, what might He not empower us to effect in heaven ?

As such, we would have access to the same faculty as Jesus, himself, to multitask in this way. Some NDE'ers have reported somehow simultaneously witnessing their life-review, both in their own person and in the person whom their good and bad acts affected. Just about all the NDE'ers report having a divine omniscience during their NDE, as have some mystics. In fact, in that most impressive NDE YouTube clip of Dr Joe Geraci, below, he states that he even became in some mysterious way the same love, peace, etc that he was experiencing :


so your evidence for praying to dead saints and to obtain omniscience(which you have provided no biblical example or data for BTW) is reports of near death experiences?

.....I think we're done here. have a good day.
 
Upvote 0

Arthur B Via

Art
Supporter
Dec 26, 2016
141
94
67
33952
✟63,873.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
The Catholic church initiated asking dead saints to Pray FOR them. They do not pray TO the saints, but trying to speak with the dead is prohibited by God. This is the same Catholic church that once told peasants they HAD to pay for their Salvation,so once again we see man veering far from God's Holy Bible... Pray to God in Jesus' Name my friends...
 
Upvote 0

Arthur B Via

Art
Supporter
Dec 26, 2016
141
94
67
33952
✟63,873.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
The Catholic church initiated asking dead saints to Pray FOR them. They do not pray TO the saints, but trying to speak with the dead is prohibited by God. This is the same Catholic church that once told peasants they HAD to pay for their Salvation,so once again we see man veering far from God's Holy Bible... Pray to God in Jesus' Name my friends...
 
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,184.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
what does a psalm 82 reference dealing with God addressing the governing rulers of the time about their corruption have to do with dead saints omnisciently hearing all of our prayers?

I wrote a long post and 'accidentally' deleted it, so now I'll be as brief as possible. I'm surprised you do not see the connection.

You are scoffing at our being endowed with the divine nature by adoption, just as the Pharisees whom Jesus was upbraiding were tacitly doing in their admonishment of Jesus' disciples over their failure to understand that all the laws on the Sabbath and everything else were framed to subserve the needs of man, not the other way round. Likewise our ability, technically-speaking, to have a mountain move into the sea. Thus, it should not require too great a leap of the imagination to believe that as adopted sons of God in heaven, we should be virtually omniscient, at least concerning God's creation now and in the after-life in heaven. In fact,St John Vianney was said to have the gift of omniscience, and though barely able to pass the exam for the priesthood, was visited in his little village by many of the crowned heads of Europe for Confession and presumably to consult him on wars and other matters of state.

But more interestingly, imho, was the testimony of Fr Joseph Geraci in this YouTube video-clip, concerning his feeling of omniscience - even of feeling that he was actually a part of the very things, such as love and peace, that he was experiencing :


As regards, more specifically, divine-level multitasking, however, some NDE'ers have attested that they were able to watch their life-review, simultaneously, both from their own viewpoint at the time, and from the viewpoint of the people they had interacted with and hurt/harmed in various ways.
 
Upvote 0