Praying to Saints

[dreadnought]

No. Show me where it says that. Jesus didn't die in agony on the cross, solely because of the sins of the Pharisees, as they obstructed and impeded the worship of others, the true children of light. We were all under the curse of the Fall, and still are in some measure, and are always, in any case, reliant on God's grace, instead of on our own supposed merits. Indeed, Paul said he was proud that that was the case, and he did not imagine that he could rely on any merits of his own.

The Lord's commandments protect us from trouble.

 

[dreadnought]

I take it you didn't bother to pick up your King James Version. What's the matter, are you afraid to find out you're wrong?

If you continue to insist on redefining the language to suit your own beliefs, you'll never be able to correctly understand anything.


You don't understand the goal of asking someone to pray for you? Really? Or do you not understand why it's good to ask our brethren who are alive in heaven, in the very presence of God, to pray for us?

But that's not really the question. The question is, why in the world would you think that it's wrong to do so?


No, that's not true and it never has been true. The definition of the word pray is, and always has been, "to ask a favor of". Like I said before, break out your King James Version and read the book of Genesis, you'll find about 2 dozen instances of people praying each other for favors.

You think that it's wrong to pray our brethren in heaven to pray for us to God. But there is absolutely no biblical reason to think that. None. It's clear that we are encouraged to pray for each other to God, and to ask our brethren to pray God on our behalf. Nowhere does Sacred Scripture say that we are to stop asking our brethren for their prayers merely because they have gone on to be fully alive in the presence of a God. When I ask Blessed Mary, the Ever Virgin Mother of God, to pray for me, it's not an act of worship. It's not divination, or necromancy, or sorcery, or any such thing... it's a request to someone I dearly love to remember me to her Son. And for some strange reason you think that that's wrong.

You'd be better off if you develop a personal relationship with the Lord.

 

[paul becke]

Did God ask Moses to make a Snake so that people could turn to it to get healed?

Tut tut What an example !

 

[dreadnought]

Doesnt mean it will be an easy road. Jesus said we have to pick up our crosses and follow Him. On that road we may fall a million times. But we fall, get up, repent and try not to sin again.

Glad you are Saintly and Holy.

You said it very well, and I try to be.

 

[paul becke]

no biblical examples, got it. next question.

where in scripture does it say that saints who are dead are given a level of omniscience to hear everyone's prayer to them?

Know ye not that ye are Gods ?

 

[thecolorsblend]

I can't find in the Bible where it says to use water, but I think it is from older Jewish practices of water symbolizing cleansing and not from pagans.

Really? Interesting.

So if I've got this right, a given Christian practice's similarity to pagan practices could be completely coincidental and, for all practical purposes, irrelevant.

Interesting idea, I must say.

Speaking of water baptism, I have been curious why is it the first sacrament in Catholicism?

Not sure I follow you here. If you mean it's the first sacrament someone receives, my guess is it's because it's usually the first one which somebody can receive (eg, shortly after birth). Certainly an infant cannot receive Holy Orders, Matrimony, for example.

Does it have to be holy water?

I wouldn't think so since it was and is commonplace for people to be baptized in flowing natural water.

I never was baptized as a child even though I went to a Catholic school and wanted to be like my other friends.

I do recommend being baptized. Even if one regards it as a purely symbolic act (a viewpoint I do not endorse at all), there's no good reason not to do it if one professes faith in Our Lord.

My mom said to go to church on a weekly basis or else I am committing venial sin.

The good news is that she was mistaken.

The bad news is that skipping Mass is a mortal sin.

but where do you find sacraments in the Bible?

Baptism, Matrimony and Anointing of the Sick are well established in scripture. The Eucharist can be seen in St. John 6 (among probably other passages) while Confession is seen in St. John 20 (again, probably among other passages). As to Holy Orders, my assumption has always been that it's tied to Confession. Perhaps I'm blanking on where else that's found in the NT but as a defense I offer the fact that today has been rather exhausting.

 

[Mark_Sam]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

 

[paul becke]

Is there any precedent in the Old or New Testament about asking for help from sources that are spirits other than God? If not, is there any information about how the tradition came about? In Catholic tradition, is it ok to ask for the help of ancestors as well? I'm only asking to better understand the scope of the tradition and how it came about.

I believe in Jewish tradition - whether Torah or Talmud, I don't know - it is believed that praying to a person's dead mother's spirit has special force. Judaism, of course, is the womb of Christianity. We Catholics believe that the prayers of the holy souls in purgatory are particularly effective.

 

[dzheremi]

It is interesting to me, given the unwise and ahistorical opposition of the scriptures with the historical practices of the Church by those who are against intercessory prayers in this thread, to consider how things would have been at earlier times, prior to the canonization of the NT in the latter half of the fourth century. After all, I highly doubt anyone in this thread would argue that Christianity only began to have rules regarding what is and is not appropriate in prayer at that time, so appeals to the scriptures can only go so far, and if we are limiting ourselves to only the post-367 canon, we are going to a much narrowed view by virtue of ignoring everything that came before that time, and what it may show us about how the pre-4th century church would have viewed such things.

To that end, if we go back much further than the common NT canon allows us, we can find in earlier, pre-canonization writings like the Shepherd of Hermas (late 1st to mid-2nd century), which for some time and by some prominent Early Church Fathers such as St. Irenaeus (d. 202) was considered to be canonical, passages such as the following:

As I was walking in the field, and observing an elm and vine, and determining in my own, mind respecting them and their fruits, the Shepherd appears to me, and says, "What is it that you are thinking about the elm and vine? ""I am considering," I reply, "that they become each other exceedingly well." "These two trees," he continues, "are intended as an example for the servants of God." "I would like to know," said I, "the example which these trees you say, are intended to teach." "Do you see," he says, "the elm and the vine? ""I see them sir," I replied. "This vine," he continued, "produces fruit, and the elm is an unfruitful tree; but unless the vine be trained upon the elm, it cannot bear much fruit when extended at length upon the ground;1 and the fruit which it does bear is rotten, because the plant is not suspended upon the elm. When, therefore, the vine is cast upon the elm, it yields fruit both, from itself and from the elm. You see, moreover, that the elm also produces much fruit, not less than the vine, but even more; because," he continued, "the vine, when suspended upon the elm, yields much fruit, and good; but when thrown upon the ground, what it produces is small and rotten. This similitude, therefore, is for the servants of God-for the poor man and for the rich." "How so, sir? "said I; "explain the matter to me." "Listen," he said: "The rich man has much wealth, but is poor in matters relating to the Lord, because he is distracted about his riches; and he offers very few confessions and intercessions to the Lord, and those which he does offer are small and weak, and have no power above. But when the rich man refreshes the poor, and assists him in his necessities, believing that what he does to the poor man will be able to find its reward with God-because the poor man is rich in intercession and confession, and his intercession has great power with God-then the rich man helps the poor in all things without hesitation; and the poor man, being helped by the rich, intercedes for him, giving thanks to God for him who bestows gifts upon him. And he still continues to interest himself zealously for the poor man, that his wants may be constantly supplied. For he knows that the intercession of the poor man is acceptable and influential with God. Both, accordingly, accomplish their work. The poor man makes intercession; a work in which he is rich, which he received from the Lord, and with which he recompenses the master who helps him. And the rich man, in like manner, unhesitatingly bestows upon the poor man the riches which he received from the Lord. And this is a great work, and acceptable before God, because he understands the object of his wealth, and has given to the poor of the gifts of the Lord, and rightly discharged his service to Him. Among men, however, the elm appears not to produce fruit, and they do not know nor understand that if a drought come, the elm, which contains water, nourishes the vine l and the vine, having an unfailing supply of water, yields double fruit both for itself and for the elm. So also poor men interceding with the Lord on behalf of the rich, increase their riches; and the rich, again, aiding the poor in their necessities, satisfy their souls. Both, therefore, are partners in the righteous work. He who does these things shall not be deserted by God, but shall be enrolled in the books of the living. Blessed are they who have riches, and who understand that they are from the Lord. [For they who are of that mind will be able to do some good. ]"

(From the Second Similitude)

Now the point of the above is not to argue that the Shepherd is scripture. It isn't (I had thought before checking that it might be part of the Ethiopian broader canon, but from what I could find it is listed by them as one of the beneficial non-scriptural early writings to be read to those wanting instruction, which is how HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic also classified it when he set down the standard 27-book NT in his 39th festal letter in 367). But what it is is a good example of what was put forth as good an acceptable prayer in the early Church itself: that the poor man should intercede for the rich, as he is richer in prayer than his more wealthy compatriot. And this is to this day how we in the Orthodox Church (and I would assume also the Catholic, and probably any other communion which embraces the idea of intercessory prayer) understand intercessory prayer. Much has been written in this thread in the assumption that praying to saints or asking their intercession is an admission that we are not "good enough" to go to God directly, but instead it is just as you would expect from reading this kind of very early Church literature: that there are some who are richer in prayer than others, and those may intercede for us. The great saints of the desert, for instance, have formed their entire lives and beings around prayer and supplication. I should want to do the same, so who better than to seek help and guidance from than those who have been there, or are there now? (for modern fathers like Fr. Lazarus El Antony, etc.)

The truth is that Christianity was never meant to be an individualistic religion as the Western Christian mentality (not found among all Western Christians, obviously, but amply on display in this thread) would have it, such that other people are "in the way" of our growth. The Bible calls on all to pray and ask for intercession for one another (I've already mentioned 1 Timothy 2:1, to which there has been no response from the anti-intercession crowd), and the example of the Church from the very earliest days before in writing and in speech has shown that this is not only normative, but beneficial for all believers.

If you wish to cut off different parts of the body from one another arbitrarily, that is your business. But just as we do not worship a lonely monad, unlike those of some other religions, we likewise ought not embrace loneliness within the Body, acting as individualized atoms of self-directed (attempted) growth. There is a limit to how far anyone can go on their own, and many pitfalls involved in that approach (recall here Ecclesiastes 4:10: "...but woe to he who is alone when he falls..."), which thankfully was and is absolutely absent from Christian history.

The Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip "How can I know (the meaning of Isaiah that I am reading) if no one teaches me?" We in the more traditional churches simply apply that to much more than the reading of scriptures alone, instead extending it to all of Christian faith, as is right to do so that we can continue to grow and further walk the unending path of Theosis.

Abba Lot went to see Abba Joseph and said to him, 'Abba as far as I can I say
my little office, I fast a little, I pray and meditate, I live in peace and as
far as I can, I purify my thoughts. What else can I do?' then the old man
stood up and stretched his hands towards heaven. His fingers became like ten
lamps of fire and he said to him, 'If you will, you can become all flame.'

 

[dzheremi]

[duplicate post.]

 

[paul becke]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

Just the kind of authoritatively informative post that was needed.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Sacred Scripture does not state that anywhere.

Wrong.

 

[Phil 1:21]

(Duplicate)

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Know ye not that ye are Gods ?

what does a psalm 82 reference dealing with God addressing the governing rulers of the time about their corruption have to do with dead saints omnisciently hearing all of our prayers?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

double post

 

[DamianWarS]

Actually, there are also prayers of praise, as well as of petition, and indeed, held to be the higher form of it - as the activity of the Four Creatures in heaven (believed to be seraphim or cherubim) would seem to attest.

but since it's biblical use is reserved for God it has an implied worship quality to it

 

[akaDaScribe]

I believe in Jewish tradition - whether Torah or Talmud, I don't know - it is believed that praying to a person's dead mother's spirit has special force. Judaism, of course, is the womb of Christianity. We Catholics believe that the prayers of the holy souls in purgatory are particularly effective.

This would be really interesting to find out for sure. I realize there is an entire element of Judaism based on oral tradition that i am not well versed in. In many ways the Catholic church reminds me of the more traditional ways of Judaism, which can be quite broad in its scope of views and less dogmatic about any given view based on the volume of varying opinions.

Some of Judaism goes into mysticism and within those areas, it varies in content as well. I have not studied long enough on intensely enough to wander into such areas and assume i can accurately discern. It may be that some Catholic practices ought not to be so widely encouraged because people who are not as committed may fall into practicing the idolatry other denominations express concerns about. Maybe, intercession is something that should only be considered by those who have a thorough understanding of it. Just thinking out loud.

 

[DamianWarS]

You don't understand the goal of asking someone to pray for you? Really? Or do you not understand why it's good to ask our brethren who are alive in heaven, in the very presence of God, to pray for us?

Please tell me the goal of praying to saints, is it to build relationship with them or to ask someone with better connection than you

 

[DamianWarS]

You don't understand the goal of asking someone to pray for you? Really? Or do you not understand why it's good to ask our brethren who are alive in heaven, in the very presence of God, to pray for us?

Please tell me the goal of praying to saints, is it to build relationship with them or to ask someone with better connection than you

 

[joshua 1 9]

Have you ever asked a family member or friend from your ecclesial community to pray for you? If so, why? Why don't you pray to God instead?

Because two is better then one and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. We join our prayers together with others. Matthew 18:20 ""For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

 

[joshua 1 9]

Have you ever asked a family member or friend from your ecclesial community to pray for you? If so, why? Why don't you pray to God instead?

Because two is better then one and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. We join our prayers together with others. Matthew 18:20 ""For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

 

[jamesbond007]

I don't see that as a 'frank admission' at all. On the contrary. You make no sense. If I ask someone for something, I don't expect to receive it from someone else, I didn't ask. Why on earth (or rather in heaven) would saints not have power I don't have with God ? Really, it's pointless trying to dispute with you people. The chap below has accused me of duplicity for not citing dictionary definitions other than the one that was relevant to my search ! Ones that would not have vindicated my point, because they were applied in different contexts.

If you don't stick with elementary logic, but just wriggle, it's just a waste of time and effort disputing with you.

The point I got from Albion is that Catholics and other denominations end up praying to saints and relics. Even the Pope does it. I'm not sure if this is Catholic doctrine. To be fair, I think we established that it isn't. That said, I think Mary is co-mediator and co-redeemer according to Catholicism which I don't agree with. The danger with praying to saints and relics and treating Mary equal to our sole mediator and redeemer is one gets misled into something that is false.

 

[Lit]

Just my opinion, but this is a Catholic vs. Protestant debate that has been going on since Martin Luther, maybe before. The issue is not going to be resolved on this forum; I recommend we talk about what unites us rather than divides us.