Practice To Decieve

[ACougar]

The following is an excellent article that actually makes sense of mid-east situation and brings alot into the light that many would prefere to leave hidden for now. 

 

"Imagine it's six months from now. The Iraq war is over. After an initial burst of joy and gratitude at being liberated from Saddam's rule, the people of Iraq are watching, and waiting, and beginning to chafe under American occupation. Across the border, in Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, our conquering presence has brought street protests and escalating violence. The United Nations and NATO are in disarray, so America is pretty much on its own...." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html 

 

[WayneH]

would make a good movie - at the very least the article is a good start for a Tom Clancey novel........

 

[ACougar]

There has been alot of discussion about reshaping the entire Middle east here are a few more articles that discuss it directly or indirectly. 

Personally I think our desire to invade Iraq is part of a larger plan meant to reshape the entire Middle-East and designed to create peace and security for Israel if everything goes according to plan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2736283.stm

http://www.merip.org/iraq_backgrounder_102202/iraq_background2_merip.pdf

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/opinion/08_02_03_f.htm

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=332182

 

 

 

[Ryder]

I'm not of the opinion that the US intends for this to spill out into the entire region, but that doesn't mean I think it couldn't happen anyways.

 

[tamtam92]

I'm sorry I voted but the "we" didn't concerned me...

 

[ACougar]

Thanks for voting, in retrospect I shouldn't have used the word "we" since many here do not come from countries supporting this war.  

 

[ksen]

1st April 2003 at 11:08 AM ACougar said this in Post #3

Personally I think our desire to invade Iraq is part of a larger plan meant to reshape the entire Middle-East and designed to create peace and security for Israel if everything goes according to plan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2736283.stm

http://www.merip.org/iraq_backgrounder_102202/iraq_background2_merip.pdf

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/opinion/08_02_03_f.htm

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=332182

Is peace and security for Israel a bad thing?

If you look at the places we've acted, Afghanistan and Iraq, you'll notice that they are on either side of Iran. I believe there is some strategy in place to neutralize Iran as a terrorism sponsoring country.

 

[ksen]

ACougar.

I voted for #1, but reading it again I don't know if you meant the reshaping as a good, bad, or neutral thing.

I think the reshaping we have in mind is a good thing and will lead to more peace and security for the entire world.

 

[ACougar]

While I find the idea that Iraq may be part of a bold strategy to reshape the entire Middle-East a little scary, the idea seems to be a key for making sense out of our policies in the region. Heaven knows the almost arbitrary creation of nations down there by certain Imperial powers leaves alot to be desired. Before we can discuss any plans to reshape the entire Middle-East though, I think we need to recognize that that is indeed the plan and that destroying WOM and setting up a new government in Iraq are just side benefits.

We need to see through the deception and see this invasion for what it really is.... The first step in a process, that could possibly lead to peace in the Middle-East or WWIII depending on how close to plan things actually go. If it's true, then all this talk about WOM and the Dark Lord Saddam is more than a little off track.

I am trying to aproach the situation from a neatral perspective for now.  I want to at least hear the whole story and understand most of the situation before I make a judgement one way or the other.  Right now the concept is new and there is a real shortage of information regarding the pro/con of such a reshaping and the risks.  Who knows if we will allow the establishment of a Kurdish state?  Who knows if we will defend the Kurds from the Turks if they attack?  Who knows if Syria and Iran will allow themselves to be drawn into the conflict?  There are dozens and dozens of variables, some like Pakistan even have Nuclear weapons.  A lot to think about and consider...

 

[Stormy]

You post a bit of fiction, and then you start a debate about it... as if it were fact?

You anti-war people have some great imaginations!

But I am really growing tired, of having the United States being the villain in your little stories!

If you want to deal in fiction, why don't you write one about...

The United States saw the threat but did nothing....

From here you are on your own...

I do not even wish to imagine.

 

[eldermike]

The idea is; throw out all the possible problems and when one of them materializes, take credit for knowing it. NBC just fired a perfect example of this personality type.

No solutions offered but they sure know all the problems. The reason this is even partly successful as a strategy is that problems do exist (not a perfect world, is it?) and they get the credit for knowing about them, using the shotgun method of prophesy.

It was too bad the Vietnam parallel was in the last paragraph, I could have saved some time if it had come up earlier.

Don't follow negative people.......
I repeat, negative energy = no energy, no work, no solutions, nothing of value.

A man was asked what He thought of the housing market continuing to rise even in a though economy. The man said, "I think it's terrible". So he was then asked: "What if it turns down"? The man then said: "That would be even worse"

 

[ACougar]

Did you check out the articles Stormy? I doubt thier fiction, however I could be wrong. Has anyone in the administration ever been confronted with such a plan or denied it?

I like to think I have a good imagination, however I got these ideas from the BBC, the Washington Monthly, and other news sources.

Actually I suspended judgement, if the information is correct the United States is either a Fool or a Hero for it's vision. In neither case would it assume the role of villan, at least not from my perspective.

I don't think we were doing nothing, we were definatley not as effective as we should have been, however we were not doing nothing. I'm all for droping a few bombs if we discover/suspect a WMD facility inspectors can't get too. I'm not if favor of saddling up and and playing World cop whenever we feel like it unless were 100% certain that we have no other choice.

 

[ACougar]

1st April 2003 at 02:44 PM eldermike said this in Post #11

The idea is; throw out all the possible problems and when one of them materializes, take credit for knowing it. NBC just fired a perfect example of this personality type.

No solutions offered but they sure know all the problems. The reason this is even partly successful as a strategy is that problems do exist (not a perfect world, is it?) and they get the credit for knowing about them, using the shotgun method of prophesy.

It was too bad the Vietnam parallel was in the last paragraph, I could have saved some time if it had come up earlier.

Don't follow negative people.......
I repeat, negative energy = no energy, no work, no solutions, nothing of value.

A man was asked what He thought of the housing market continuing to rise even in a though economy. The man said, "I think it's terrible". So he was then asked: "What if it turns down"? The man then said: "That would be even worse"

So you don't think the United States has a regional agenda beyond taking care of Iraq?  I don't necessarily see this as something negative, it may not be attainable, however the objective discussed isn't really negative.

 

[No gods]

1st April 2003 at 02:11 PM Stormy said this in Post #10

You post a bit of fiction, and then you start a debate about it... as if it were fact?

You anti-war people have some great imaginations!

But I am really growing tired, of having the United States being the villain in your little stories!

If you want to deal in fiction, why don't you write one about...

The United States saw the threat but did nothing....

And what was this threat that the United States saw?

 

[Memory's Flame]

YAY Stormy!

 

[ACougar]

1st April 2003 at 04:10 PM No gods said this in Post #14



And what was this threat that the United States saw?

More importantly perhaps, what about the threat the United States did not seem to notice?

1.  The hundred Bin Ladens this conflict might create. 

2.  The downfall of friendly Middle-Eastern governments, some of whom have nuclear weapons.

3.  World distrust and animosity towards the only Superpower.

4.  If doesn't take a 1st world nation these days to create WMD, a teenager with a good understanding of chemistry is capable of doing it.  Nuclear weapons are a little more difficult, however it must be assumed that at some point in the future every nation that wishes to have Nuclear weapons will have them.