The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Ukraine's Zelenskyy addresses Congress, invokes 9/11, Pearl Harbor, MLK as he pleads for pivotal aid

Note that Fox News has been consistently pro Ukraine, and I am citing their story because it is easy to read. Zelenskyy addressed the US congress in protest at our correct decision not to supply them with MiG-29s and provide air support, because the Pentagon and Biden have deemed these actions, correctly, to be “escalatory”, which is a euphemistic way of saying they would prompt a potential nuclear escalation that would lead to WWIII and the end of human life.

What is now causing me to oppose both the Ukrainian and Russian governments is that, in attempting to provoke members of Congress into backing things we can’t do because Russia and the US have nuclear parity and are at risk of mutually assured destruction in the event of nuclear conflict, Zelenskyy engaged in the following emotionally-charged rhetoric, which I found offensive:

  • He referenced Pearl Harbor and WWII, in which the US was the victim of a sneak attack by an Axis Power and had war declared on it by Mussolini and Aldolf Hitler, whose atrocities exceed anything that has happened thus far in Ukraine, and we need to pray it never reaches that point.
  • He also referenced the September 11 Terror Attacks, in which, 2,807 civillians and 189 military and civillian workers at the Pentagon were killed in a surprise terrorist action; in contrast, in the course of a war which was anticipated for months, and in which there were mass evacuations from Kiev and other cities before the main Russian offensive, as of two days ago, UN human rights observers reported 636 civilian fatalities - still a tragedy, and unacceptable, but less than 25% of the casualties on 9/11 in a war comprised of vastly different circumstances.
  • He invoked Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who I venerate as a saint and hieromartyr, because he, a staunch pacifist clergyman who insisted on non-violent struggle for civil rights for African Americans, famously rebuked the movements associated with Malcolm X and the Black Panthers, who threatened violence, by exclaiming “Non-violence, non-violence, non-violence!” Zelenskyy quoted “I have a dream!” while requesting the violent act of imposing through military force a no-fly zone, and weapons, both actions being capable of leading to nuclear confrontation according to the US Department of Defense and President Biden. I am invincibly confident that St. Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream did not extend to global thermonuclear war.

More disturbing than his emotional but unreasonable appeals was this (quoting from the linked article directly):

Pointing to World War II, Zelenskyy said that "the war of the past have prompted our predecessors to create institutions that should protect us from war, but, they unfortunately don’t work."

"We see it. You see it. So we need new ones, new institutions, new alliances, and we are for them," Zelenskyy said.

He proposed "to create an association, United for Peace, a union of responsible countries that have the strength and consciousness to stop conflicts, immediately provide all the necessary assistance in 24 hours, if necessary—even weapons, if necessary, sanctions, humanitarian support, political support."

"If such an alliance would exist today…we would be able to save thousands of lives in our country, in many countries of the world who need peace, those who suffer inhumane destruction,"

This sounds to me like a dangerous idea, another potential failure of an international alliance, with undertones of one world government.

Finally, in the most dishonest part of his speech, Zelenskyy declared "I see no sense in life if I cannot stop the deaths, and this is my main issue and the leader of my people, great Ukrainians, and the leader of my nation."

This is patently false - Zelenskyy’s goal is obviously victory, or at least a scenario where Ukrainian sovereignty is protected and Russia is dealt a strategic defeat through heavy casualties, even if Russian forces secure some additional land.

These goals are not dishonorable, indeed, most people not supporting Russia would see them as laudable, however, for him to declare all he wants to do is save lives is fundamentally dishonest and manipulative when he could accomplish that objective with a single phone call to either President Biden, NATO SHAPE, or a neutral country like Switzerland, requesting their assistance or good offices in communicating with Russia to achieve an immediate ceasefire to facilitate a 24 hour period in which to work out a negotiated surrender, countersigned by representatives of Russian allies, Ukrainian allies, neutral countries and the UN.

Zelenskyy, furthermore, despite being Jewish, has, to the peril of his fellow Ukrainian Jews, made something of a deal with the devil in the form of the Azov Battalion, actual neo-Nazis, who, having been armed and unleashed, represent a major threat to the security of post-war Ukraine, in particular religious and ethnic minorities, as this article in the Guardian details: Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat

Now, make no mistake, I am not supporting Putin, who is a KGB man who makes a pretense of Russian Orthodox piety while thus far having engaged in four conflicts that resulted in Eastern Orthodox Christians killing other Eastern Orthodox Christians (the 2008 war with Georgia, in which he permanently destroyed the Georgian Navy, resulting in the deaths of many Georgian Orthodox Christians and some Russian and Abkhazian Orthodox Christians, and the annexation of Crimea and the subsequent ongoing conflict between Ukraine and the de facto independent Peoples Republics of Donestsk and Luhansk in the Donbass, which combined with this conflict, considering that the larger of the two Eastern Orthodox churches in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, is part of the Russian Orthodox Church, have consisted of Russian Orthodox fighting and in some cases killing Russian Orthodox and other Christians from the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, its sister denomination the Russian Catholic Church and their parent denomination the Roman Catholic Church, and the Ukrainian Lutheran Church, in addition to other smaller denominations.

And Putin failed to lift a finger to stop Azerbaijan from conquering and ethnically cleansing most of the Ngorno-Karabakh Armenian Republic, territories it had held for years (Azeris had already occupied and ethnically cleansed other Armenian territories amidst the downfall of the Soviet Union), these being Oriental Orthodox Christian lands, and Azerbaijan being a nominally secular Islamic regime that is fanatically anti-Armenian, and like Turkey, a genocide denier, and also closely allied with brutal Islamist dictatorship in Iran, which is Putin’s ally. Armenia is also supposedly an ally of Russia, but when in need, they did not receive any meaningful assistance. Indeed the only thing Russia has done that helped Christians were their actions in Syria and Iraq, but they withdrew ground forces prematurely, allowing ISIS to destroy the archaeological wonders, including the ancient house church and Jewish synagogue in Dura-Europos. And if Zelenskyy did a deal with the devil in availing himself of assistance from the Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, Putin has done the same thing, by employing Islamist militias from Chechnya in Ukraine for various special operations.* This is also a huge risk to postwar Russian internal security, because these “elite Chechen units” appear to be at the very least related to the Chechen Islamist terrorists who committed various attrocities in Moscow and elsewhere in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

So my policy as of now is to oppose the continued military conflict and to not support either Zelenskyy or Putin, because both have shown themselves to be deeply flawed leaders. I believe Zelenskyy, for his part, could have precluded this conflict through a peace treaty with Russia wherein they agreed to recognize and normalize relations with Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states, create an autonomous buffer zone in the Donbass region, and recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea based on the referendum (it should be noted that Crimea’s population obviously did largely support Russia, with some exceptions, probably not to the extent indicated by the referendum, however, the absence of civil unrest indicates a lack of opposition, and Ukraine furthermore under President Poroshenko, who like his pro-Russian predecessor, was corrupt, but anti-Russian, could have averted that conflict by not threatening to seize the Russian naval base in Sebastopol, an action which would have been illegal under international law due to the treaty between the two countries, which is analogous to the treaty between the US and Cuba under which the US leased Guantanamo Bay (which is valid for a few more decades, although the Cuban communist dictatorship stopped recognizing it years ago, and stopped cashing the checks the US treasury has continued sending them even after the Cuban Missile Crisis).

Conversely, Russia should obviously not have invaded, and their prosecution of the war has resulted in unacceptably high levels of civilian casualties, even though the overall level is quite low by contemporary standards. Especially distressing for me, in addition to the deaths of American journalists and Ukrainian civilians in general, was the desperately sad news of the bombing of a childrens’ facility. Less distressing, but deeply unfortunate, was the destruction of the Antonov An-225, the worlds largest cargo aircraft, which has been invaluable in responding to various natural disasters. This irreplaceable, one of a kind aircraft was originally built by the Ukrainian aircraft manufacturer Antonov to transport the Soviet Space Shuttle Buran (itself destroyed some years back when the hangar in which it was stored collapsed, but which did successfully complete an orbit under automatic control, and had a higher payload than our space shuttles, and whose Energia rocket engine has since been purchased by the US for cargo flights; indeed, I wish we had purchased the entire Buran system as a Mark II space shuttle as its design was theoretically safer, as the Soviets had time to evaluate and improve on the American design, and it would have been in many respects superior to the insanely overbudget Space Launch System NASA is currently wasting money (and expensive reusable Space Shuttle Main Engines) on.

To me, the Buran orbiter and Antonov An-225 to me symbolize what Ukraine and Russia could accomplish when they were united, and can still accomplish in the future if peace is restored, not just for each other, but as the humanitarian uses of the An-225 demonstrated, for the world.

Lastly, I have to criticize the Western response. In my view, constant criticism of Russia and predictions of an invasion before one happened helped make it a reality; if the US wanted to preclude an invasion, we should have avoided discussions of NATO membership for Ukraine and offered a treaty to Russia that would guarantee non-membership for Ukraine in return for a Russian guarantee of non-intervention, and also in addition to threatening economic sanctions on Russia, used the threat of sanctions on Ukraine, which would have ensured their immediate collapse, if they did not agree to a peace treaty with Russia whereby in return for Russia withdrawing its forces and agreeing not to concentrate forces near the Ukrainian border, and vice versa, Ukraine would recognize the sovereignity of Donestsk and Luhansk and formally cede Crimea to Russia, and Russia would normalize relations with Ukraine, and the West would lift all sanctions against Russia. Such a deal should have been done years ago, given the chances of Russia giving back Crimea were nil.

For that matter, Russia never would invaded if Ukraine had retained and developed nuclear capabilities had we not offered Ukraine money to surrender their strategic bomber aircraft and the Soviet nuclear weapons that remained in their territory in the early 90s, they could perhaps have remanufactured them (since these weapons had permissive action links connected to the former Soviet nuclear chain of command, which fell under Russian control, and as such were not usable, but the weapons grade radioisotopes in these weapons could have been used to make new weapons, since most of the challenge of nuclear weapons development is in obtaining the very highly enriched isotopes needed for a supercritical nuclear explosion). And Yeltsin-era Russia was in such an economic and military state of collapse that it is unlikely it could have stopped Ukraine from remanufacturing those nuclear weapons. But that is water under the bridge, to put it mildly.

Speaking of sanctions, I also feel the most recent sanctions have resulted in unreasonable economic hardship for the Russian people, who have not had an objectively free and fair sanctions election for Putin probably since 2012, if not 2004, if not 2000, if ever. And equally troubling is Facebook allowing support for the aformentioned neo-Nazi Azov Batallion, which it had previously banned for being neo-Nazis.

Thus, rather than supporting either the Ukrainian or Russian leadership, my new position is to oppose both in equal measure. I believe that US policy should be refocused on encouraging Ukraine to surrender certain territories in the Donbass with Russian ethnic majorities to Russia and agreeing to a joint demilitarized zone 100 miles from the border in both directions, except in the immediate vicinity of Kiev, and the cessation of Crimea, in return for a peace treaty, which would be accompanied by the immediate lifting of all sanctions. Such a treaty would involve measures to dissuade Russian reinvasion. And furthermore, certain sanctions creating hardships for ordinary Russian civilians should be lifted immediately, for example, perhaps by allowing SWIFT transfers up to say US $500 per recipient per week or encouraging Visa and Mastercard to allow their services to be used in conjunction with money order services, in order to mitigate food insecurity for Russians, particularly elderly Russians who struggle to make ends meet on ridiculously small state pensions, that our actions have led to. Peace must be our only objective, not Russian victory or Ukrainian victory. Peace even if it required conditional Ukrainian surrender, as embarrassing as that would be, would be preferable to prolonging this nightmare. But the path for Russia to have all sanctions lifted must be a peace that preserves and protects Ukrainian sovereignty over Ukrainian areas which do not have a population that desires unity with Russia.

Also, we must see an end to the false accusations of support for the war by various Russian Orthodox churches such as the Moscow Patriarchare, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, ethnically Russian parishes of the Orthodox Church in America, which was formerly a part of the Russian Orthodox Church but became completely independent in 1970, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, also known as the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, which was a stridently anti communist grouping of Russian Orthodox parishes outside the Iron Curtain which became independent of the Moscow Patriarchate based on their interpretation of the final message from St. Tikhon, the Moscow Patriarch who died of mistreatment and respiratory illness in a Soviet prison in 1924, and which reconciled with the Moscow Patriarchate in 2007 and is now an autonomous church loosely affiliated with the MP, and finally the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which was controversially formed by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 2018 from the merger of the Kiev Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which were hitherto not regarded as canonical, but the OCU has been recognized as canonical by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which controls the Greek Orthodox churches in those parts of Greece like Thessaloniki, Crete and Lesbos which were not captured from the Ottoman Empire in the Greek War of Independence in 1824, but rather liberated from Turkocratia at later dates, as well as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, and the Greek Orthodox churches outside Greece everywhere except Cyprus Africa, Sinai, the Middle East and the Holy Land, which are under the Church of Cyprus Patriarchate of Alexandria, the Church of Sinai, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, as well as, in the United States, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of North America, the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese, and a few other ethnic churches here and elsewhere in the world, such as the Finnish Orthodox Church. None of these churches want war, nor for that matter do any of the Catholic churches in Ukraine or Russia.

*I have heard, and believe, that the use of both the Azov Battalion by Ukraine and the Chechnyan Islamist militants by Russia are due to a natural reluctance on the parts of many Ukrainian and Russian soldiers to engage in particularly severe combat with each other, given that we are talking about the Slavic equivalent of Americans and Canadians, or Flemish and Dutch, or Hawaiians and Samoans, or Greeks and Cypriots, which is not to say war has not occurred between these ethnic siblings, but that it is rare and mostly historical.
 

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
14,997
11,995
54
USA
✟300,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Since you post was very long, I'm only going to respond to the parts about his speech. Some of the other parts seem only of interest to the Orthodox or are rambling odes to the the Soviet aerospace industry.

Ukraine's Zelenskyy addresses Congress, invokes 9/11, Pearl Harbor, MLK as he pleads for pivotal aid

Note that Fox News has been consistently pro Ukraine, and I am citing their story because it is easy to read. Zelenskyy addressed the US congress in protest at our correct decision not to supply them with MiG-29s and provide air support, because the Pentagon and Biden have deemed these actions, correctly, to be “escalatory”, which is a euphemistic way of saying they would prompt a potential nuclear escalation that would lead to WWIII and the end of human life.

I don't watch Fox News, but I have seen plenty of anti-anti-Putin (if not pro-Putin) content floating out from them *after* the war started, especially from Rossiya-1's new media star: Tucker Carlson. (And until there was an attack, the channel seemed to be mostly dismissive of any possible attack.)

Zelenskyy didn't address the US Congress "in protest", no one does. You have to be a member or get an invite to speak before the US Congress. Is it surprising that he asked again for the things that he isn't going to get? No.

What is now causing me to oppose both the Ukrainian and Russian governments is that, in attempting to provoke members of Congress into backing things we can’t do because Russia and the US have nuclear parity and are at risk of mutually assured destruction in the event of nuclear conflict, Zelenskyy engaged in the following emotionally-charged rhetoric, which I found offensive:

You're pulling back on your pre-existing support for a politician because he used "emotionally-charged rhetoric" to ask for the things he's been asking for previously.

  • He referenced Pearl Harbor and WWII, in which the US was the victim of a sneak attack by an Axis Power and had war declared on it by Mussolini and Aldolf Hitler, whose atrocities exceed anything that has happened thus far in Ukraine, and we need to pray it never reaches that point.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine hasn't reached the "Hitler-level" of atrocity yet so invoking the attack that entered the US into that war was offensive some how? (I assume you are aware of the cultural resonance of WW II in Ukraine.)

  • He also referenced the September 11 Terror Attacks, in which, 2,807 civillians and 189 military and civillian workers at the Pentagon were killed in a surprise terrorist action; in contrast, in the course of a war which was anticipated for months, and in which there were mass evacuations from Kiev and other cities before the main Russian offensive, as of two days ago, UN human rights observers reported 636 civilian fatalities - still a tragedy, and unacceptable, but less than 25% of the casualties on 9/11 in a war comprised of vastly different circumstances.
You don't really think the numbers of civilian deaths in Ukraine are really that low, now do you? There are several cities/metros where the civilian death toll is clearly larger than 9-11 already, though it will be hard to determine exact numbers even if the attacks stopped now.

9-11 was a handful of fanatics with control of a few planes, Putin is terror bombing multiple Ukrainian cities right now with an army and the power of a nation state. Similar campaigns have been made against Aleppo and Grozny (by Putin) and earlier against Dresden and Tokyo. Mass death and destruction is the result.

  • He invoked Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who I venerate as a saint and hieromartyr, because he, a staunch pacifist clergyman who insisted on non-violent struggle for civil rights for African Americans, famously rebuked the movements associated with Malcolm X and the Black Panthers, who threatened violence, by exclaiming “Non-violence, non-violence, non-violence!” Zelenskyy quoted “I have a dream!” while requesting the violent act of imposing through military force a no-fly zone, and weapons, both actions being capable of leading to nuclear confrontation according to the US Department of Defense and President Biden. I am invincibly confident that St. Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream did not extend to global thermonuclear war.
MLK isn't as strict a pacifist as you seem to think he was. A politician made a hackneyed MLK reference, that never happens... I'm not sure why you are labeling him a saint given that he wasn't even in you religion. (He was a protestant.) (I'm not even sure if he was a real "Dr." or if it was just a theology/ministry "doctorate". He was an actual "Jr." so at least that part is right.)

More disturbing than his emotional but unreasonable appeals was this (quoting from the linked article directly):

Pointing to World War II, Zelenskyy said that "the war of the past have prompted our predecessors to create institutions that should protect us from war, but, they unfortunately don’t work."

"We see it. You see it. So we need new ones, new institutions, new alliances, and we are for them," Zelenskyy said.

He proposed "to create an association, United for Peace, a union of responsible countries that have the strength and consciousness to stop conflicts, immediately provide all the necessary assistance in 24 hours, if necessary—even weapons, if necessary, sanctions, humanitarian support, political support."

"If such an alliance would exist today…we would be able to save thousands of lives in our country, in many countries of the world who need peace, those who suffer inhumane destruction,"

This sounds to me like a dangerous idea, another potential failure of an international alliance, with undertones of one world government.

I think you're being paranoid. This sounds a lot like other post-war institutions: League of Nations, UN, even NATO to some extent.
 
Upvote 0

bekkilyn

Contemplative Christian
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2017
7,612
8,475
USA
✟677,608.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
In some sense I agree with you, but at the same time I don't blame Zelenskyy for making his appeal in the manner that he did. His first priority is Ukraine. Here in the US I think too many people are leaning towards getting directly involved in the war and I am reluctant to think that it is a good idea for various reasons. As much as I feel compassion for those in the Ukraine and in Russia, I also believe that we in the US need the first to do what's best for our own country and our own country's interests, and getting pulled directly into this conflict may not be in our best interest even as we feel for those who are involved in it and hurting because of it.
 
Upvote 0

Sheila Davis

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2020
838
292
Houston
✟65,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Divorced
Since you post was very long, I'm only going to respond to the parts about his speech. Some of the other parts seem only of interest to the Orthodox or are rambling odes to the the Soviet aerospace industry.



I don't watch Fox News, but I have seen plenty of anti-anti-Putin (if not pro-Putin) content floating out from them *after* the war started, especially from Rossiya-1's new media star: Tucker Carlson. (And until there was an attack, the channel seemed to be mostly dismissive of any possible attack.)

Zelenskyy didn't address the US Congress "in protest", no one does. You have to be a member or get an invite to speak before the US Congress. Is it surprising that he asked again for the things that he isn't going to get? No.



You're pulling back on your pre-existing support for a politician because he used "emotionally-charged rhetoric" to ask for the things he's been asking for previously.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine hasn't reached the "Hitler-level" of atrocity yet so invoking the attack that entered the US into that war was offensive some how? (I assume you are aware of the cultural resonance of WW II in Ukraine.)

You don't really think the numbers of civilian deaths in Ukraine are really that low, now do you? There are several cities/metros where the civilian death toll is clearly larger than 9-11 already, though it will be hard to determine exact numbers even if the attacks stopped now.

9-11 was a handful of fanatics with control of a few planes, Putin is terror bombing multiple Ukrainian cities right now with an army and the power of a nation state. Similar campaigns have been made against Aleppo and Grozny (by Putin) and earlier against Dresden and Tokyo. Mass death and destruction is the result.

MLK isn't as strict a pacifist as you seem to think he was. A politician made a hackneyed MLK reference, that never happens... I'm not sure why you are labeling him a saint given that he wasn't even in you religion. (He was a protestant.) (I'm not even sure if he was a real "Dr." or if it was just a theology/ministry "doctorate". He was an actual "Jr." so at least that part is right.)



I think you're being paranoid. This sounds a lot like other post-war institutions: League of Nations, UN, even NATO to some extent.
Since you post was very long, I'm only going to respond to the parts about his speech. Some of the other parts seem only of interest to the Orthodox or are rambling odes to the the Soviet aerospace industry.



I don't watch Fox News, but I have seen plenty of anti-anti-Putin (if not pro-Putin) content floating out from them *after* the war started, especially from Rossiya-1's new media star: Tucker Carlson. (And until there was an attack, the channel seemed to be mostly dismissive of any possible attack.)

Zelenskyy didn't address the US Congress "in protest", no one does. You have to be a member or get an invite to speak before the US Congress. Is it surprising that he asked again for the things that he isn't going to get? No.



You're pulling back on your pre-existing support for a politician because he used "emotionally-charged rhetoric" to ask for the things he's been asking for previously.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine hasn't reached the "Hitler-level" of atrocity yet so invoking the attack that entered the US into that war was offensive some how? (I assume you are aware of the cultural resonance of WW II in Ukraine.)

You don't really think the numbers of civilian deaths in Ukraine are really that low, now do you? There are several cities/metros where the civilian death toll is clearly larger than 9-11 already, though it will be hard to determine exact numbers even if the attacks stopped now.

9-11 was a handful of fanatics with control of a few planes, Putin is terror bombing multiple Ukrainian cities right now with an army and the power of a nation state. Similar campaigns have been made against Aleppo and Grozny (by Putin) and earlier against Dresden and Tokyo. Mass death and destruction is the result.

MLK isn't as strict a pacifist as you seem to think he was. A politician made a hackneyed MLK reference, that never happens... I'm not sure why you are labeling him a saint given that he wasn't even in you religion. (He was a protestant.) (I'm not even sure if he was a real "Dr." or if it was just a theology/ministry "doctorate". He was an actual "Jr." so at least that part is right.)



I think you're being paranoid. This sounds a lot like other post-war institutions: League of Nations, UN, even NATO to some extent.

Doctrine in Systematic Theology
What Was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. a Doctor of?
The Catholic Church actually deems some people as saints
How does someone become a saint?
Baptist Minister
Celebrating Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,662
7,880
63
Martinez
✟906,489.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ukraine's Zelenskyy addresses Congress, invokes 9/11, Pearl Harbor, MLK as he pleads for pivotal aid


He proposed "to create an association, United for Peace, a union of responsible countries that have the strength and consciousness to stop conflicts, immediately provide all the necessary assistance in 24 hours, if necessary—even weapons, if necessary, sanctions, humanitarian support, political support."

"If such an alliance would exist today…we would be able to save thousands of lives in our country, in many countries of the world who need peace, those who suffer inhumane destruction,"

This sounds to me like a dangerous idea, another potential failure of an international alliance, with undertones of one world government.

Finally, in the most dishonest part of his speech, Zelenskyy declared "I see no sense in life if I cannot stop the deaths, and this is my main issue and the leader of my people, great Ukrainians, and the leader of my nation."

This is patently false - Zelenskyy’s goal is obviously victory, or at least a scenario where Ukrainian sovereignty is protected and Russia is dealt a strategic defeat through heavy casualties, even if Russian forces secure some additional land.

These goals are not dishonorable, indeed, most people not supporting Russia would see them as laudable, however, for him to declare all he wants to do is save lives is fundamentally dishonest and manipulative when he could accomplish that objective with a single phone call to either President Biden, NATO SHAPE, or a neutral country like Switzerland, requesting their assistance or good offices in communicating with Russia to achieve an immediate ceasefire to facilitate a 24 hour period in which to work out a negotiated surrender, countersigned by representatives of Russian allies, Ukrainian allies, neutral countries and the UN.

Zelenskyy, furthermore, despite being Jewish, has, to the peril of his fellow Ukrainian Jews, made something of a deal with the devil in the form of the Azov Battalion, actual neo-Nazis, who, having been armed and unleashed, represent a major threat to the security of post-war Ukraine, in particular religious and ethnic minorities, as this article in the Guardian details: Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat

Now, make no mistake, I am not supporting Putin, who is a KGB man who makes a pretense of Russian Orthodox piety while thus far having engaged in four conflicts that resulted in Eastern Orthodox Christians killing other Eastern Orthodox Christians (the 2008 war with Georgia, in which he permanently destroyed the Georgian Navy, resulting in the deaths of many Georgian Orthodox Christians and some Russian and Abkhazian Orthodox Christians, and the annexation of Crimea and the subsequent ongoing conflict between Ukraine and the de facto independent Peoples Republics of Donestsk and Luhansk in the Donbass, which combined with this conflict, considering that the larger of the two Eastern Orthodox churches in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, is part of the Russian Orthodox Church, have consisted of Russian Orthodox fighting and in some cases killing Russian Orthodox and other Christians from the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, its sister denomination the Russian Catholic Church and their parent denomination the Roman Catholic Church, and the Ukrainian Lutheran Church, in addition to other smaller denominations.

And Putin failed to lift a finger to stop Azerbaijan from conquering and ethnically cleansing most of the Ngorno-Karabakh Armenian Republic, territories it had held for years (Azeris had already occupied and ethnically cleansed other Armenian territories amidst the downfall of the Soviet Union), these being Oriental Orthodox Christian lands, and Azerbaijan being a nominally secular Islamic regime that is fanatically anti-Armenian, and like Turkey, a genocide denier, and also closely allied with brutal Islamist dictatorship in Iran, which is Putin’s ally. Armenia is also supposedly an ally of Russia, but when in need, they did not receive any meaningful assistance. Indeed the only thing Russia has done that helped Christians were their actions in Syria and Iraq, but they withdrew ground forces prematurely, allowing ISIS to destroy the archaeological wonders, including the ancient house church and Jewish synagogue in Dura-Europos. And if Zelenskyy did a deal with the devil in availing himself of assistance from the Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, Putin has done the same thing, by employing Islamist militias from Chechnya in Ukraine for various special operations.* This is also a huge risk to postwar Russian internal security, because these “elite Chechen units” appear to be at the very least related to the Chechen Islamist terrorists who committed various attrocities in Moscow and elsewhere in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

So my policy as of now is to oppose the continued military conflict and to not support either Zelenskyy or Putin, because both have shown themselves to be deeply flawed leaders. I believe Zelenskyy, for his part, could have precluded this conflict through a peace treaty with Russia wherein they agreed to recognize and normalize relations with Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states, create an autonomous buffer zone in the Donbass region, and recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea based on the referendum (it should be noted that Crimea’s population obviously did largely support Russia, with some exceptions, probably not to the extent indicated by the referendum, however, the absence of civil unrest indicates a lack of opposition, and Ukraine furthermore under President Poroshenko, who like his pro-Russian predecessor, was corrupt, but anti-Russian, could have averted that conflict by not threatening to seize the Russian naval base in Sebastopol, an action which would have been illegal under international law due to the treaty between the two countries, which is analogous to the treaty between the US and Cuba under which the US leased Guantanamo Bay (which is valid for a few more decades, although the Cuban communist dictatorship stopped recognizing it years ago, and stopped cashing the checks the US treasury has continued sending them even after the Cuban Missile Crisis).

Conversely, Russia should obviously not have invaded, and their prosecution of the war has resulted in unacceptably high levels of civilian casualties, even though the overall level is quite low by contemporary standards. Especially distressing for me, in addition to the deaths of American journalists and Ukrainian civilians in general, was the desperately sad news of the bombing of a childrens’ facility. Less distressing, but deeply unfortunate, was the destruction of the Antonov An-225, the worlds largest cargo aircraft, which has been invaluable in responding to various natural disasters. This irreplaceable, one of a kind aircraft was originally built by the Ukrainian aircraft manufacturer Antonov to transport the Soviet Space Shuttle Buran (itself destroyed some years back when the hangar in which it was stored collapsed, but which did successfully complete an orbit under automatic control, and had a higher payload than our space shuttles, and whose Energia rocket engine has since been purchased by the US for cargo flights; indeed, I wish we had purchased the entire Buran system as a Mark II space shuttle as its design was theoretically safer, as the Soviets had time to evaluate and improve on the American design, and it would have been in many respects superior to the insanely overbudget Space Launch System NASA is currently wasting money (and expensive reusable Space Shuttle Main Engines) on.

To me, the Buran orbiter and Antonov An-225 to me symbolize what Ukraine and Russia could accomplish when they were united, and can still accomplish in the future if peace is restored, not just for each other, but as the humanitarian uses of the An-225 demonstrated, for the world.

Lastly, I have to criticize the Western response. In my view, constant criticism of Russia and predictions of an invasion before one happened helped make it a reality; if the US wanted to preclude an invasion, we should have avoided discussions of NATO membership for Ukraine and offered a treaty to Russia that would guarantee non-membership for Ukraine in return for a Russian guarantee of non-intervention, and also in addition to threatening economic sanctions on Russia, used the threat of sanctions on Ukraine, which would have ensured their immediate collapse, if they did not agree to a peace treaty with Russia whereby in return for Russia withdrawing its forces and agreeing not to concentrate forces near the Ukrainian border, and vice versa, Ukraine would recognize the sovereignity of Donestsk and Luhansk and formally cede Crimea to Russia, and Russia would normalize relations with Ukraine, and the West would lift all sanctions against Russia. Such a deal should have been done years ago, given the chances of Russia giving back Crimea were nil.

For that matter, Russia never would invaded if Ukraine had retained and developed nuclear capabilities had we not offered Ukraine money to surrender their strategic bomber aircraft and the Soviet nuclear weapons that remained in their territory in the early 90s, they could perhaps have remanufactured them (since these weapons had permissive action links connected to the former Soviet nuclear chain of command, which fell under Russian control, and as such were not usable, but the weapons grade radioisotopes in these weapons could have been used to make new weapons, since most of the challenge of nuclear weapons development is in obtaining the very highly enriched isotopes needed for a supercritical nuclear explosion). And Yeltsin-era Russia was in such an economic and military state of collapse that it is unlikely it could have stopped Ukraine from remanufacturing those nuclear weapons. But that is water under the bridge, to put it mildly.

Speaking of sanctions, I also feel the most recent sanctions have resulted in unreasonable economic hardship for the Russian people, who have not had an objectively free and fair sanctions election for Putin probably since 2012, if not 2004, if not 2000, if ever. And equally troubling is Facebook allowing support for the aformentioned neo-Nazi Azov Batallion, which it had previously banned for being neo-Nazis.

Thus, rather than supporting either the Ukrainian or Russian leadership, my new position is to oppose both in equal measure. I believe that US policy should be refocused on encouraging Ukraine to surrender certain territories in the Donbass with Russian ethnic majorities to Russia and agreeing to a joint demilitarized zone 100 miles from the border in both directions, except in the immediate vicinity of Kiev, and the cessation of Crimea, in return for a peace treaty, which would be accompanied by the immediate lifting of all sanctions. Such a treaty would involve measures to dissuade Russian reinvasion. And furthermore, certain sanctions creating hardships for ordinary Russian civilians should be lifted immediately, for example, perhaps by allowing SWIFT transfers up to say US $500 per recipient per week or encouraging Visa and Mastercard to allow their services to be used in conjunction with money order services, in order to mitigate food insecurity for Russians, particularly elderly Russians who struggle to make ends meet on ridiculously small state pensions, that our actions have led to. Peace must be our only objective, not Russian victory or Ukrainian victory. Peace even if it required conditional Ukrainian surrender, as embarrassing as that would be, would be preferable to prolonging this nightmare. But the path for Russia to have all sanctions lifted must be a peace that preserves and protects Ukrainian sovereignty over Ukrainian areas which do not have a population that desires unity with Russia.

Also, we must see an end to the false accusations of support for the war by various Russian Orthodox churches such as the Moscow Patriarchare, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, ethnically Russian parishes of the Orthodox Church in America, which was formerly a part of the Russian Orthodox Church but became completely independent in 1970, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, also known as the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, which was a stridently anti communist grouping of Russian Orthodox parishes outside the Iron Curtain which became independent of the Moscow Patriarchate based on their interpretation of the final message from St. Tikhon, the Moscow Patriarch who died of mistreatment and respiratory illness in a Soviet prison in 1924, and which reconciled with the Moscow Patriarchate in 2007 and is now an autonomous church loosely affiliated with the MP, and finally the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which was controversially formed by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 2018 from the merger of the Kiev Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which were hitherto not regarded as canonical, but the OCU has been recognized as canonical by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which controls the Greek Orthodox churches in those parts of Greece like Thessaloniki, Crete and Lesbos which were not captured from the Ottoman Empire in the Greek War of Independence in 1824, but rather liberated from Turkocratia at later dates, as well as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, and the Greek Orthodox churches outside Greece everywhere except Cyprus Africa, Sinai, the Middle East and the Holy Land, which are under the Church of Cyprus Patriarchate of Alexandria, the Church of Sinai, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, as well as, in the United States, the

*I have heard, and believe, that the use of both the Azov Battalion by Ukraine and the Chechnyan Islamist militants by Russia are due to a natural reluctance on the parts of many Ukrainian and Russian soldiers to engage in particularly severe combat with each other, given that we are talking about the Slavic equivalent of Americans and Canadians, or Flemish and Dutch, or Hawaiians and Samoans, or Greeks and Cypriots, which is not to say war has not occurred between these ethnic siblings, but that it is rare and mostly historical.


Well initially I had the knee jerk reaction of " how could he fold in our past in order to gain more support"? I was a bit taken aback but then I came to my senses. This man and his country are being torn apart before the very eyes of the world and everyone is just sitting back and letting it happen. We have no right to judge him because we have no idea what they are going through. Thank you for the post, I have now come to terms and have fully repented. Blessings.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
(I'm not even sure if he was a real "Dr." or if it was just a theology/ministry "doctorate". He was an actual "Jr." so at least that part is right.)
He got his earned doctorate in systematic theology from Boston University in 1955. He later got an honorary doctorate too.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
What is now causing me to oppose both the Ukrainian and Russian governments is that, in attempting to provoke members of Congress into backing things we can’t do because Russia and the US have nuclear parity and are at risk of mutually assured destruction in the event of nuclear conflict, Zelenskyy engaged in the following emotionally-charged rhetoric, which I found offensive....
I'm not fond of either of them either. While Zelensky is no angel, and Putin isn't either, the real thing we should be looking for is someone who can broker peace. Sort of a Jimmy Carter for Egypt and Israel. But I don't know of anyone who could fit that bill. Joe Biden isn't even close. Pope Francis isn't even close. Xi isn't even close. And I'm not sure there are many others who might be able to do it. Any ideas?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
14,997
11,995
54
USA
✟300,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Respectfully, I feel your post really misses the central thrust of my argument, which is that the continuation of this war is not morally justifiable.

Instead, your argument consists of a number of points that are fallacious, or of dubious validity, or amount to quibbling, for example, a red herring (I never denied that Zelenskyy was invited to address congress; I factually stated that in his statement he protested, or if you prefer, urged using deceptive language, that the US Congress oppose the strategically sound decision of the Pentagon and President Biden to not risk escalation in a conflict involving a nuclear adversary whose strategic nuclear forces are already on alert.

Indeed, your reply began with the absurd implication that Eastern Orthodoxy is of only tangential importance to the issue, and then moved into an irrelevant borderline ad hominem contra my praise of the recent humanitarian relief efforts enabled by the An-225 and support for renewal of pan-Slavic aerospace cooperation based on its historic achievements, and my lamentation of the destruction of a unique aircraft that would be of immediate utility in any number of humanitarian conflicts around the globe. To this, at the risk of your further ire at my alleged nostalgia for a regime Ronald Reagan, memory eternal, correctly called “the Empire of Evil”, I would add that no other aircraft, not even the A380 or Boeing 787-8F or Lockheed C5 Galaxy could match the payload of the Antonov An-225, and this is of real importance, and a cause for frustration, for anyone who has an active interest in the logistics of humanitarian relief efforts, such as the presbyter of two Congregationalist churches, who is also self-employed, and thus redirects all donations at our parishes not needed in the local community to several aid programs and disaster relief efforts worldwide, who it falls upon myself and the combined boards of directors of our two parishes to select, a selection made based on program efficiency, which depends on logistics, and the logistics of many programs have been helped enormously by that aircraft.

The efficient operation of charitable relief efforts sponsored by religious organizations may be of little concern to persons who do not even bother to join a church that has atheist members and even atheist clergy, like the Unitarian Universalists or certain meetings of Friends (Quakers), but for pious atheists and persons of faith united in a charitable and philanthropic disposition, it is pressing, and when we lose something that has been of great benefit to helping people, it is something to be lamented. Not as much of an immediately heartbreaking tragedy such as the death of the hundred children mentioned by Zelenskyy (may their memory be eternal), but still deeply unfortunate because that aircraft was useful for life saving missions.

Next, you argue that Zelenskyy was justified in appealing to our memory of WWII. The conflict in Ukraine has not approached the devastation caused even in the Vietnam War or the Saudi war on Yemen, or the civil war in Syria and Iraq, and the related ISIS conflict.

You also question the most reliable official numbers on casualties, provided by the UN OHCHR, which has networks of observers in a position to know, and deprecate the tragedy of 9/11, ignoring the crucial distinction that those attacks occurred without warning, and people were leaving Ukraine for weeks before the attack occurred; indeed, this attack was one of the most obviously impending military campaigns in history, and in that respect was totally unlike Russia’s sudden and immediate occupation of Crimea in 2014.

Your argument then denies that Martin Luther King Jr. was a pacifist, which is an insult to his memory, and ignorantly presumes that I am not a member of the same religion as him. As an atheist on a Christian forum, I obviously do not expect you to understand the subtleties of our theology, but I would expect you to (a) consider that this forum has a Statement of Faith defining what, for purposes of discussions here, a Christian is, a Statement of Faith agreed on by nearly all Christians (namely, the Nicene Creed), and that for purposes of discussion on the forum, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants are of the same religion or religious identity, and (b) be aware that my profile does not identify me as an Eastern Orthodox Christian but as a Generic Orthodox Christian; indeed, had you read very many posts of mine you would be aware that at present, I am a Protestant clergyman, but I have been Eastern Orthodox in the past, as well as Episcopalian, and also am an ecumenist, meaning I advocate reunion of these churches, and the promotion of such reunion is one reason why I am presently involved with Congregationalism, and (c) refrain from saying things about our religion which are not incontrovertible, for example, the suggestion Eastern Orthodox and Protestants are members of different religions, and statements which are categorically false, for example, that the Eastern Orthodox cannot venerate a Protestant as a saint and martyr: the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia venerates St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, the founders of what now survives as the Moravian Church, as martyrs. The Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox also venerate St. Isaac the Syrian, a member of the Church of the East, and several Orthodox saints are venerated by Roman Catholics.

Most offensively, however, you then proceed to question the validity of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr’s doctorate on the sole basis that it may have been a “theology/ministry” doctorate, as if having a Doctorate in Theology or a Doctorate in Divinity is any less of an academic achievement than having a Doctorate in Philosophy, or Economics, or Sociology, or Mathematics, or Astronomy, or Computer Science, or Medicine. Indeed the original three doctorates offered by European universities were in Theology, Philosophy and Medicine. These remarks are deeply offensive on a Christian website, and also I believe our many African American members will, with not inconsiderable justification, regard most unfavorably this unwarranted, irrelevant and off-topic assault on the academic qualifications and moral virtue of a glorious Christian saint and martyr who contributed greatly to the abolition of segregation and other civil rights abuses, along with Rosa Parks, another great symbol of non-violent civil disobedience, which early Christians engaged in by mere virtue of their existence in the Roman Empire.

Lastly, with regards to the accusation of paranoia on my part, this I shall with utmost respect decline to comment on.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I *know* the Catholic Church creates saints. I used to be one. (A Catholic, not a saint.) "Systematic Theology" at least sounds better than a "doctor" of ministry.
You should get over whatever issues you have and get back to being a Catholic again.

And God makes saints. The Catholic Church only recognizes some of them eventually after a long process.

Boston University started out Methodist. Martin Luther King studied a bit of Thomas Aquinas and Natural Law along the way to his degree.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
In some sense I agree with you, but at the same time I don't blame Zelenskyy for making his appeal in the manner that he did. His first priority is Ukraine. Here in the US I think too many people are leaning towards getting directly involved in the war and I am reluctant to think that it is a good idea for various reasons. As much as I feel compassion for those in the Ukraine and in Russia, I also believe that we in the US need the first to do what's best for our own country and our own country's interests, and getting pulled directly into this conflict may not be in our best interest even as we feel for those who are involved in it and hurting because of it.

My primary objection, and one that I note @Hans Blaster failed to mention in his reply, which surprised me, but on it rests the centrality of why I realized the Ukrainian government is unworthy of our support or sympathy, whereas the Ukrainian people deserve, to an even greater extent our support and sympathy, because, like their Russian brethren, they live under a government whose leadership is morally reprehensible, was the inately dishonest remark on Zelenskyy’s part that he just wanted the deaths to stop. If he sincerely wants all civillian and military casualties to stop, as I said, he should pick up the phone, call Washington, call the UN in New York or Geneva, call NATO or the European Commission in Brussels, or call the Swiss Embassy, if it is still manned, or otherwise the Swiss foreign ministry, and request assistance in securing an immediate peacefire to facilitate a negotiated surrender under a flag of truce.

If he wants to win, that’s fine, but he needs to be honest and say that.

The other contributing factor to my rejection of his government is that both he and Russia are using straight-up terrorists, in the form of neo-Nazis of the Azov Batallion, and Chechen Islamist militants, according to several reports, because of hesitation on the part of Pravoslavie (Orthodox Christians) to shoot at each other in certain intensive ground combat operations. Shelling buildings with a mobile artillery unit or shooting down enemy aircraft is much easier on the soul than close quarters combat and especially, sniper duties.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
In some sense I agree with you, but at the same time I don't blame Zelenskyy for making his appeal in the manner that he did. His first priority is Ukraine. Here in the US I think too many people are leaning towards getting directly involved in the war and I am reluctant to think that it is a good idea for various reasons. As much as I feel compassion for those in the Ukraine and in Russia, I also believe that we in the US need the first to do what's best for our own country and our own country's interests, and getting pulled directly into this conflict may not be in our best interest even as we feel for those who are involved in it and hurting because of it.

My primary objection, and one that I note @Hans Blaster failed to mention in his reply, which surprised me, but on it rests the centrality of why I realized the Ukrainian government is unworthy of our support or sympathy, whereas the Ukrainian people deserve, to an even greater extent our support and sympathy, because, like their Russian brethren, they live under a government whose leadership is morally reprehensible, was the inately dishonest remark on Zelenskyy’s part that he just wanted the deaths to stop. If he sincerely wants all civillian and military casualties to stop, as I said, he should pick up the phone, call Washington, call the UN in New York or Geneva, call NATO or the European Commission in Brussels, or call the Swiss Embassy, if it is still manned, or otherwise the Swiss foreign ministry, and request assistance in securing an immediate peacefire to facilitate a negotiated surrender under a flag of truce.

If he wants to win, that’s fine, but he needs to be honest and say that.

The other contributing factor to my rejection of his government is that both he and Russia are using straight-up terrorists, in the form of neo-Nazis of the Azov Batallion, and Chechen Islamist militants, according to several reports, because of hesitation on the part of Pravoslavie (Orthodox Christians) to shoot at each other in certain intensive ground combat operations. Shelling buildings with a mobile artillery unit or shooting down enemy aircraft is much easier on the soul than close quarters combat and especially, sniper duties.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
He got his earned doctorate in systematic theology from Boston University in 1955. He later got an honorary doctorate too.

Systematic theology is one of the hardest doctorates to get in theology. What masters did he have, an MDiv? It’s easier to get a doctorate in systematic theology if one has a Masters in Theology, but harder to get ordained. Systematic theology means he would have studied not just Thomas Aquinas, but John Calvin, Karl Barth and I would hope, St. John of Damascus.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
My primary objection, and one that I note @Hans Blaster failed to mention in his reply, which surprised me, but on it rests the centrality of why I realized the Ukrainian government is unworthy of our support or sympathy, whereas the Ukrainian people deserve, to an even greater extent our support and sympathy, because, like their Russian brethren, they live under a government whose leadership is morally reprehensible, was the inately dishonest remark on Zelenskyy’s part that he just wanted the deaths to stop. If he sincerely wants all civillian and military casualties to stop, as I said, he should pick up the phone, call Washington, call the UN in New York or Geneva, call NATO or the European Commission in Brussels, or call the Swiss Embassy, if it is still manned, or otherwise the Swiss foreign ministry, and request assistance in securing an immediate peacefire to facilitate a negotiated surrender under a flag of truce.

If he wants to win, that’s fine, but he needs to be honest and say that.

The other contributing factor to my rejection of his government is that both he and Russia are using straight-up terrorists, in the form of neo-Nazis of the Azov Batallion, and Chechen Islamist militants, according to several reports, because of hesitation on the part of Pravoslavie (Orthodox Christians) to shoot at each other in certain intensive ground combat operations. Shelling buildings with a mobile artillery unit or shooting down enemy aircraft is much easier on the soul than close quarters combat and especially, sniper duties.
Looks like it may be an unjust war from both sides. Russia clearly. Ukraine with their Azov Battalion, and maybe also the futility of certain defeat issue.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Systematic theology is one of the hardest doctorates to get in theology. What masters did he have, an MDiv? It’s easier to get a doctorate in systematic theology if one has a Masters in Theology, but harder to get ordained. Systematic theology means he would have studied not just Thomas Aquinas, but John Calvin, Karl Barth and I would hope, St. John of Damascus.
There is a lot of Aquinas that shows through from King.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Well initially I had the knee jerk reaction of " how could he fold in our past in order to gain more support"? I was a bit taken aback but then I came to my senses. This man and his country are being torn apart before the very eyes of the world and everyone is just sitting back and letting it happen. We have no right to judge him because we have no idea what they are going through. Thank you for the post, I have now come to terms and have fully repented. Blessings.

Even if you feel his emotional rhetoric was justified, the man still lied through his teeth about wanting the killing to stop, which he could make happen in about two hours with one phone call, and is still making use of neo-Nazis, just as Putin is using, to call a spade a spade, jihadis.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Looks like it may be an unjust war from both sides. Russia clearly. Ukraine with their Azov Battalion, and maybe also the futility of certain defeat issue.

Indeed, this is my position. We need a change in foreign policy to secure immediate peace, even if Ukraine has to lose de jure some territory that it de facto lost or was likely to lose anyway.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Indeed, this is my position. We need a change in foreign policy to secure immediate peace, even if Ukraine has to lose de jure some territory that it de facto lost or was likely to lose anyway.
I have actually heard some people exploring the long term geopolitics of this war and it scares me. They are playing a chess game twenty moves out. Not looking for a cease fire or peace.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I have actually heard some people exploring the long term geopolitics of this war and it scares me. They are playing a chess game twenty moves out. Not looking for a cease fire or peace.

And the Russian and Ukrainian Christians are their expendable pawns.

I also was troubled by the new head of MI6 declaring that Russia’s stance on LGBTQIA+ issues was the most important moral issue in the conflict. I guess its only ok to be homophobic if you’re an Islamist regime like Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Turkey, in his opinion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,317
16,154
Flyoverland
✟1,237,972.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
And the Russian and Ukrainian Christians are their expendable pawns.

I also was troubled by the new head of MI6 declaring that Russia’s stance on LGBTQIA+ issues was the most important moral issue in the conflict. I guess its only ok to be homophobic if you’re an Islamist regime like Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Turkey, in his opinion.
That's one thing that makes me sick to my stomach about the liberal push for war against Putin. And at the same time I see Kirill's moral imperative for opposing the West to be more neo-KGB than traditional Christian.
 
Upvote 0