Thanks EWQ1938. As you can see, I've been working it out for a bit.
Have a great evening! I'll check back tomorrow.
Please see post # 518
Yes, the Great Tribulation (also shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the reign of the "Little Horn" or AntiChrist during (4) Satan's "Little Season"
However only the fourth "time/day/year/watch" was SHORTENED for the sake of the Elect.
So... if you do not understand WHAT the "times/days/years/watches" represent IN TIME
then you have no ability to offer an informed opinion on WHAT period was shortened or
HOW MUCH the period was shortened.
The period Christ said would be shortened was the GT. That is the time of the AC and Christian persecution spoken in the OD and parts of Rev like chp 11 and 13.
You did not read post #518
The question is NOT whether the shortened days was during the GT...
the question is WHICH of the four "times" or "days" or "years" or "watches"
were shortend?
The answer is the FOURTH "time/day/year/watch" was shortened.
since there are four periods to the GT
Please see post # 518
Yes, the Great Tribulation (also shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the reign of the "Little Horn" or AntiChrist during (4) Satan's "Little Season"
However only the fourth "time/day/year/watch" was SHORTENED for the sake of the Elect.
So... if you do not understand WHAT the "times/days/years/watches" represent IN TIME
then you have no ability to offer an informed opinion on WHAT period was shortened or
HOW MUCH the period was shortened. However, the Bible does provide that information.
Jim
The Great Tribulation is called the "night" when no man could work
(no man can save - because the last of His sheep had been found)
Joh 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work.
Here is the Biblical context of that passage:
John 9:4
I must work the works of Him that sent Me, while it is day [during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom"
... or the "Church Age"]: the night cometh, [during the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom"]
when no man can work [when our "testimony is finished", as all of the "lost sheep"
must be saved before Satan is "loosened"] 5 As long as I am in the world,
I am the Light of the world.
Important Note
2Th 2:6-9 reveals the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way"
before Satan can be "loosened" for this "night", or his "little season".
This "night" is shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast
and (3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" and (4) the rule of THE Antichrist
and (5) Satan's "little season" after being loosened from the Bottomless Pit.
AND... we know absolutely that the PEOPLE living during Daniel's Fourth Beast are
the SAME PEOPLE as those living during the Revelation Beast and the SAME PEOPLE
as those living during the Great Tribulation and the SAME PEOPLE as those living during
the rule of THE AntiChrist and the SAME PEOPLE as those living in Satan's "little season".
We know this absolutely because (in each case) they are the PEOPLE living on earth when
the Lord Returns... some who are "changed" in the "twinkling of an eye" at the Last Trump.
The Lord explained there were four "watches of the night" before His Return [Mark 13:35]
These four "watches" occur during the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast.
The Lord even named each watch:
1) at the even [watch]
2) at the midnight [watch]
3) at the cockcrowing [watch]
4) in the morning [watch]
And the Lord explained His servants would be "blessed" if they were looking for Him
during each of the watches:
Luk 12:38-39
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so,
Blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known
what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house
to be broken through.
Unfortunately, I can only offer "milk" now - there's so much "meat" involved here.
While the (KJV) Bible translates Strong's G5438 as the word PRISON exactly 40 times,
it translates the word as "watch" [of the night] only five times... indicating the four
separate-and-distinct periods of the Great Tribulation were a PRISON for the Saints
living during the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven"... because Satan and his Anti-Christ
ruled over these Last Saints for 3.5 "watches/times/days/years".
Note: the fourth "watch" was "shortened" for the sake of the Elect [Mat 24:22],
which is why Satan's "prison" was only for 3.5 "watches".
When the Bible says the Anti-Christ rules for 3.5 "times", that indicates he is destroyed
during the fourth "watch of the night".
When the Bible says the prophets lay dead in the street for 3.5 "days", that means
they arise during the fourth "watch of the night".
When the Bible says the Anti-Christ treads the Kingdom forty-two months (3.5 years)
it means it ends in the fourth "watch of the night".
No denomination, church or pastor can pretend to understand the events - or the chronology -
of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom unless they can separate Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the Revelation Beast) into four separate-and-distinct "watches/times/days/years".
In Daniel 7, these people are called ten "horns" and ten "kings".
In Revelation 17 these people are AGAIN called ten "horns" and ten "kings"
In Matthew 25, these people are called ten "virgins".
The Bible speaks about these people in DOZENS of passages... under different NAMES.
We must be able to harmonize EACH of those passages - regardless of what NAME
those people are called in that passage.
The "Woman" [the Last Saints] who are hidden from the face of the Serpent
for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]
The "Holy People" [the Last Saints] whose power is scattered by the Anti-Christ
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]
The "Kings" [the Last Saints] that are given into his hand (into the Anti-Christ's hand)
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]
The "Witnesses" [the Last Saints] which are first overcome, and then later killed, by Satan
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]
The "Holy City" [the Last Saints] which the Anti-Christ treads under foot for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11]
The "Kingdom" [the Last Saints] who are under the power of the Anti-Christ for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13]
These four "watches of the night" are shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 "years"
(forty-two months). The events shown happening in the passages about these "times/days/years"
all represent the same events, and the people living during these four "watches of the night"
are all the same people, the same "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Jesus Returns
in Glory, and the Resurrection occurs.
No denomination, no church or preacher can offer an informed opinion about these events
(or these people) unless they can harmonize the four "watches of the night"... and the
experiences of the ten "Horns/Kings/Virgins", which are shown in DOZENS of passages.
While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins"
that "went forth" into the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7]
as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns" that were "given into the hand" of the Anti-Christ...
and they are shown [Rev 17] as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns" that "agree to give
their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains dozens of other passages talking about
these same people and every single one of those passages must be harmonized - before
anyone can even pretend to understand more than partial-truth.
Here are some more passages talking about those SAME PEOPLE
living during the SAME PERIOD shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and
(2) the Revelation Beast and (3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
and (4) the reign of THE AntiChrist during (5) Satan's "Little Season" on earth.
The "Horns" that were "plucked up" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 7]
The "Host and Stars" that were "cast down" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]
The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]
The "Kingdom" that is "overflown" and "broken" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]
The "Mighty and Holy People" who are "destroyed" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]
The "Sanctuary and Host" that are "trodden under foot" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]
The "Arms" that "shall stand on his part" [stand on the Anti-Christ's part]
and "pollute the Sanctuary" [Dan 11]
The "Ten Virgins" who "went forth" [preaching the gospel of the Anti-Christ]
during the Fourth Kingdom [Mat 25]
The "Sanctuary" that is "polluted" by the Anti-Christ [and his "arms"] during
the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" [Dan 11]
The "Locusts" that arise [under the Anti-Christ's rule] and "torment" all of the "tares"
that remain within their churches [Rev 9]
In conclusion, the 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night" all represent the time
Satan and the "Little Horn" rule over the FOURTH "Kingdom" on earth - the period called
(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelations Beast and (3) The Great Tribulation and
(4) the rule of THE AntiChrist during (5) Satan's "Little Season" after being loosened from
the Bottomless Pit and before being cast into the Lake-of-Fire [Rev 20:10]
Jim
I have some musings about the Millennium. After the bowls of wrath, wars and terraforming Jesus does upon His return, do you think there will be any church buildings left standing?
If there are, do you think people will still go to church in the Millennium? And if they do what it be like if Jesus walked into your church? Would you just focus your eyes on Him while worshiping, would it seem odd to worship a man?
Again, there is no such thing as 4 periods of the GT in the text.
Basically, Jesus is saying MAN can only work while he is alive.
Pete
Hey Jim,
Yes, the great tribulation started when Jesus’ night started. I don’t know where you pulled that from in Scripture, but I do agree.
Pete
No, because it is specifically said to be shortened even more than originally intended.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
"great" tribulation means worse than regular tribulation in this context, not long since it is being shortened.
Again, I would direct you to STUDY the verses provided in post #518.
In order to understand the Great Tribulation we need to FIRST understand the period is also shown
as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and (3) the reign of the "Little Horn"
during (4) Satan's "Little Season".
We know this absolutely because the PEOPLE from each perspective are the SAME PEOPLE.
They are the ones living on earth when the Lord Returns.
Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and
consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Jim
First we have the great tribulation of Matt 24, which includes the plagues of Rev 16... and then we have the Rapture of John 15:1-3, 2 Thess 2:1-5.... so then No humans are left on the Earth after the rapture - Jer 4:23-26. The wicked are all destroyed 2 Thess 1:6-9 and Rev 19 ending make that clear. And the saints are taken to heaven -- John 14:1-3, Matt 24:29-31, 1 Thess 4:13-18
yes - Matt 24:29-31 makes it clear that the rapture happens post trib "immediately after the tribulation" Matt 24:29Hi Bob,
You do realize, you are posting in the "Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House"?
Pete
I'm not here trying to prove that I'm right. I'm here trying to work through Scripture, with fellow Christians, in an effort to know WHAT is right. I would appreciate it if you folks would limit your comments to what I have presented or, keep your comments to yourself.
Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the post-tribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a post-trib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.
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I'm here trying to work through Scripture, with fellow Christians, in an effort to know WHAT is right. tion is not worse than any other, it is unlike any other. The tribulation is great, that is, it is large, vast, like the flood that comes out of the serpents mouth. Might the word "great" mean it is long?
Bob,You mention a lot of ideas in your post - do you just want us to know about your ideas or do you want to discuss one of them pros-vs-cons or questions etc?
ewq1938,
Yep, those days shall be shortened. How is it shortened, and by how much? Is the start delayed, or the end moved up? Just because a time period is shortened, doesn't mean it is short.
So you are saying Jesus LIED when He taught there would be four "watches of the night"?
In fact, the best chronology of the Great Tribulation is Matthew 25:1-13,
that passage is the most succinct version of GT "watches".
The FIRST "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:1-4
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from their churches]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat/sheep],
and five were foolish [unsaved tares/goats in the church] They that were foolish took
their lamps, and took no oil [Holy Spirit] with them: But the wise took oil [Holy Spirit]
in their vessels [themselves] with their lamps [their Gospel].
Note: the Gospel of the Great Tribulation Saints is different than the Church Age Gospel
because the Great Tribulation Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15] the fulfillment of end-time prophecies,
in fact, the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" come to pass [Mat 24:33]. And, of course,
these Great Tribulation Saints PREACH (for the first time ever) about the fulfillment of ALL
Great Tribulation prophecies... as the Seventh Trumpet BEGINS to sound [Rev 10:7-11]
The SECOND "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried [when He did not appear as they prophesied],
they all [all the ten virgins, both the wise and foolish] slumbered and slept.
[they were quiet, without a Gospel]
The THIRD "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:6-9
And at midnight [during the third "watch of the night"] there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him [the virgins AGAIN predict His Return].
Then all those virgins arose [both the wise and foolish], and trimmed [changed] their lamps [Gospels].
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [Holy Spirit]; for our lamps [our Gospel]
are gone out [was not inspired]. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough
for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[Note: at NO TIME during the Great Commission of the Church Age do Saints REFUSE to preach,
or send people to some other unnamed group for their salvation... this is the GT not the church age.
Again, at NO TIME after Pentecost did the Saints send people to another group for salvation]
The FOURTH "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:10
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom [Jesus] came [Returned];
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. [the final harvest is complete]
During the "Time of the End" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time" on earth [Dan 7:11-12]
AFTER the destruction of Daniel's Fourth Beast [also shown as the Revelation Beast [Rev 17],
ruling during the Great Tribulation]
Mat 25:11-13
Afterward [after the final harvest] came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Notice, the DOOR WAS SHUT in Matthew 25:10, indicating the final harvest was complete.
Harmonize that information with the passage below, which is just another perspective of the
same time - the time AFTER the final harvest is complete - and the DOOR WAS SHUT.
Luk 13:23-25
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in,
and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye BEGIN TO STAND WITHOUT, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say
unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten
and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you,
I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the [eternal] Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
So... you are correct that SOME DAYS of the Great Tribulation are "shortened" for the elect's sake.
However, you do not know WHEN those days are shortened [during the fourth "watch"]
because you do not understand the Bible's teaching on this matter.
Jim
So you are saying Jesus LIED when He taught there would be four "watches of the night"?
In fact, the best chronology of the Great Tribulation is Matthew 25:1-13,
that passage is the most succinct version of GT "watches".
The FIRST "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:1-4
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from their churches]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat/sheep],
and five were foolish [unsaved tares/goats in the church] They that were foolish took
their lamps, and took no oil [Holy Spirit] with them: But the wise took oil [Holy Spirit]
in their vessels [themselves] with their lamps [their Gospel].
Note: the Gospel of the Great Tribulation Saints is different than the Church Age Gospel
because the Great Tribulation Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15] the fulfillment of end-time prophecies,
in fact, the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" come to pass [Mat 24:33]. And, of course,
these Great Tribulation Saints PREACH (for the first time ever) about the fulfillment of ALL
Great Tribulation prophecies... as the Seventh Trumpet BEGINS to sound [Rev 10:7-11]
The SECOND "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried [when He did not appear as they prophesied],
they all [all the ten virgins, both the wise and foolish] slumbered and slept.
[they were quiet, without a Gospel]
The THIRD "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:6-9
And at midnight [during the third "watch of the night"] there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him [the virgins AGAIN predict His Return].
Then all those virgins arose [both the wise and foolish], and trimmed [changed] their lamps [Gospels].
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [Holy Spirit]; for our lamps [our Gospel]
are gone out [was not inspired]. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough
for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[Note: at NO TIME during the Great Commission of the Church Age do Saints REFUSE to preach,
or send people to some other unnamed group for their salvation... this is the GT not the church age.
Again, at NO TIME after Pentecost did the Saints send people to another group for salvation]
The FOURTH "time/day/year/watch of the night"
Mat 25:10
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom [Jesus] came [Returned];
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. [the final harvest is complete]
During the "Time of the End" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time" on earth [Dan 7:11-12]
AFTER the destruction of Daniel's Fourth Beast [also shown as the Revelation Beast [Rev 17],
ruling during the Great Tribulation]
Mat 25:11-13
Afterward [after the final harvest] came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Notice, the DOOR WAS SHUT in Matthew 25:10, indicating the final harvest was complete.
Harmonize that information with the passage below, which is just another perspective of the
same time - the time AFTER the final harvest is complete - and the DOOR WAS SHUT.
Luk 13:23-25
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in,
and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye BEGIN TO STAND WITHOUT, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say
unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten
and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you,
I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the [eternal] Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
So... you are correct that SOME DAYS of the Great Tribulation are "shortened" for the elect's sake.
However, you do not know WHEN those days are shortened [during the fourth "watch"]
because you do not understand the Bible's teaching on this matter.
Jim
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