Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[5thKingdom]

Thanks EWQ1938. As you can see, I've been working it out for a bit.
Have a great evening! I'll check back tomorrow.

Are you really "working it out"?

The 3.5 "times/days/years/watches" represent the same period.
And it's the FOURTH "time/day/year/watch" which is shortened.

Can your "gospel" harmonize these Truths?
Read post #518

Jim

 

[ewq1938]

Please see post # 518
Yes, the Great Tribulation (also shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the reign of the "Little Horn" or AntiChrist during (4) Satan's "Little Season"


However only the fourth "time/day/year/watch" was SHORTENED for the sake of the Elect.


So... if you do not understand WHAT the "times/days/years/watches" represent IN TIME
then you have no ability to offer an informed opinion on WHAT period was shortened or
HOW MUCH the period was shortened.

The period Christ said would be shortened was the GT. That is the time of the AC and Christian persecution spoken in the OD and parts of Rev like chp 11 and 13.

No surprise that the GT period found in Rev is only 3.5 years, half of the original length.

 

[5thKingdom]

The period Christ said would be shortened was the GT. That is the time of the AC and Christian persecution spoken in the OD and parts of Rev like chp 11 and 13.

You did not read post #518
The question is NOT whether the shortened days was during the GT...
the question is WHICH of the four "times" or "days" or "years" or "watches"
were shortend?


The answer is the FOURTH "time/day/year/watch" was shortened.


With so much Biblically harmonious information offered in post #518...
why in the world would you speak before your listened (read)?
You do not know WHICH period was shortened...
since there are four periods to the GT.


Jim

 

[ewq1938]

You did not read post #518
The question is NOT whether the shortened days was during the GT...
the question is WHICH of the four "times" or "days" or "years" or "watches"
were shortend?
The answer is the FOURTH "time/day/year/watch" was shortened.

There is no such thing in the text. Christ spoke of the GT and said it would be shortened:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

since there are four periods to the GT

Again, there is no such thing as 4 periods of the GT in the text.

 

[PeterJennen]

Please see post # 518
Yes, the Great Tribulation (also shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the reign of the "Little Horn" or AntiChrist during (4) Satan's "Little Season"


However only the fourth "time/day/year/watch" was SHORTENED for the sake of the Elect.


So... if you do not understand WHAT the "times/days/years/watches" represent IN TIME
then you have no ability to offer an informed opinion on WHAT period was shortened or
HOW MUCH the period was shortened. However, the Bible does provide that information.


Jim

The Great Tribulation is called the "night" when no man could work
(no man can save - because the last of His sheep had been found)


Joh 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work.


Here is the Biblical context of that passage:


John 9:4
I must work the works of Him that sent Me, while it is day [during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom"
... or the "Church Age"]: the night cometh, [during the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom"]
when no man can work [when our "testimony is finished", as all of the "lost sheep"
must be saved before Satan is "loosened"] 5 As long as I am in the world,
I am the Light of the world.


Important Note
2Th 2:6-9 reveals the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way"
before Satan can be "loosened" for this "night", or his "little season".
This "night" is shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast
and (3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" and (4) the rule of THE Antichrist
and (5) Satan's "little season" after being loosened from the Bottomless Pit.


AND... we know absolutely that the PEOPLE living during Daniel's Fourth Beast are
the SAME PEOPLE as those living during the Revelation Beast and the SAME PEOPLE
as those living during the Great Tribulation and the SAME PEOPLE as those living during
the rule of THE AntiChrist and the SAME PEOPLE as those living in Satan's "little season".
We know this absolutely because (in each case) they are the PEOPLE living on earth when
the Lord Returns... some who are "changed" in the "twinkling of an eye" at the Last Trump.


The Lord explained there were four "watches of the night" before His Return [Mark 13:35]
These four "watches" occur during the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast.
The Lord even named each watch:


1) at the even [watch]
2) at the midnight [watch]
3) at the cockcrowing [watch]
4) in the morning [watch]


And the Lord explained His servants would be "blessed" if they were looking for Him
during each of the watches:


Luk 12:38-39
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so,
Blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known
what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house
to be broken through.


Unfortunately, I can only offer "milk" now - there's so much "meat" involved here.
While the (KJV) Bible translates Strong's G5438 as the word PRISON exactly 40 times,
it translates the word as "watch" [of the night] only five times... indicating the four
separate-and-distinct periods of the Great Tribulation were a PRISON for the Saints
living during the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven"... because Satan and his Anti-Christ
ruled over these Last Saints for 3.5 "watches/times/days/years".


Note: the fourth "watch" was "shortened" for the sake of the Elect [Mat 24:22],
which is why Satan's "prison" was only for 3.5 "watches".

When the Bible says the Anti-Christ rules for 3.5 "times", that indicates he is destroyed
during the fourth "watch of the night".

When the Bible says the prophets lay dead in the street for 3.5 "days", that means
they arise during the fourth "watch of the night".

When the Bible says the Anti-Christ treads the Kingdom forty-two months (3.5 years)
it means it ends in the fourth "watch of the night".

No denomination, church or pastor can pretend to understand the events - or the chronology -
of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom unless they can separate Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the Revelation Beast) into four separate-and-distinct "watches/times/days/years".


In Daniel 7, these people are called ten "horns" and ten "kings".
In Revelation 17 these people are AGAIN called ten "horns" and ten "kings"
In Matthew 25, these people are called ten "virgins".


The Bible speaks about these people in DOZENS of passages... under different NAMES.
We must be able to harmonize EACH of those passages - regardless of what NAME
those people are called in that passage.

The "Woman" [the Last Saints] who are hidden from the face of the Serpent
for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]


The "Holy People" [the Last Saints] whose power is scattered by the Anti-Christ
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]


The "Kings" [the Last Saints] that are given into his hand (into the Anti-Christ's hand)
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]


The "Witnesses" [the Last Saints] which are first overcome, and then later killed, by Satan
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]


The "Holy City" [the Last Saints] which the Anti-Christ treads under foot for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11]


The "Kingdom" [the Last Saints] who are under the power of the Anti-Christ for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13]


These four "watches of the night" are shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 "years"
(forty-two months). The events shown happening in the passages about these "times/days/years"
all represent the same events, and the people living during these four "watches of the night"
are all the same people, the same "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Jesus Returns
in Glory, and the Resurrection occurs.


No denomination, no church or preacher can offer an informed opinion about these events
(or these people) unless they can harmonize the four "watches of the night"... and the
experiences of the ten "Horns/Kings/Virgins", which are shown in DOZENS of passages.


While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins"
that "went forth" into the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7]
as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns" that were "given into the hand" of the Anti-Christ...
and they are shown [Rev 17] as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns" that "agree to give
their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains dozens of other passages talking about
these same people and every single one of those passages must be harmonized - before
anyone can even pretend to understand more than partial-truth.


Here are some more passages talking about those SAME PEOPLE
living during the SAME PERIOD shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and
(2) the Revelation Beast and (3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
and (4) the reign of THE AntiChrist during (5) Satan's "Little Season" on earth.


The "Horns" that were "plucked up" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 7]

The "Host and Stars" that were "cast down" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]

The "Kingdom" that is "overflown" and "broken" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]

The "Mighty and Holy People" who are "destroyed" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Sanctuary and Host" that are "trodden under foot" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Arms" that "shall stand on his part" [stand on the Anti-Christ's part]
and "pollute the Sanctuary" [Dan 11]

The "Ten Virgins" who "went forth" [preaching the gospel of the Anti-Christ]
during the Fourth Kingdom [Mat 25]

The "Sanctuary" that is "polluted" by the Anti-Christ [and his "arms"] during
the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" [Dan 11]

The "Locusts" that arise [under the Anti-Christ's rule] and "torment" all of the "tares"
that remain within their churches [Rev 9]


In conclusion, the 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night" all represent the time
Satan and the "Little Horn" rule over the FOURTH "Kingdom" on earth - the period called
(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelations Beast and (3) The Great Tribulation and
(4) the rule of THE AntiChrist during (5) Satan's "Little Season" after being loosened from
the Bottomless Pit and before being cast into the Lake-of-Fire [Rev 20:10]


Jim

Hey Jim,

You made my point with your first reference.
John‬ ‭9:4-5‬ ‭
“I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
‭‭
I don’t have time to cut and paste all of the references needed here because I have to get ready for work. Basically, Jesus is saying MAN can only work while he is alive. Remember when John the baptist had his disciples inquire if Jesus was the one? His reply was that the blind see and the lame walk. It is day while each person is alive, and night when each person goes into the grave.
Yes, the great tribulation started when Jesus’ night started. I don’t know where you pulled that from in Scripture, but I do agree.

Pete

 

[BobRyan]

I have some musings about the Millennium. After the bowls of wrath, wars and terraforming Jesus does upon His return, do you think there will be any church buildings left standing?

If there are, do you think people will still go to church in the Millennium? And if they do what it be like if Jesus walked into your church? Would you just focus your eyes on Him while worshiping, would it seem odd to worship a man?

First we have the great tribulation of Matt 24, which includes the plagues of Rev 16... and then we have the Rapture of John 15:1-3, 2 Thess 2:1-5.... so then No humans are left on the Earth after the rapture - Jer 4:23-26. The wicked are all destroyed 2 Thess 1:6-9 and Rev 19 ending make that clear. And the saints are taken to heaven -- John 14:1-3, Matt 24:29-31, 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[5thKingdom]

Again, there is no such thing as 4 periods of the GT in the text.

So you are saying Jesus LIED when He taught there would be four "watches of the night"?
In fact, the best chronology of the Great Tribulation is Matthew 25:1-13,
that passage is the most succinct version of GT "watches".


The FIRST "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:1-4
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from their churches]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat/sheep],
and five were foolish [unsaved tares/goats in the church] They that were foolish took
their lamps, and took no oil [Holy Spirit] with them: But the wise took oil [Holy Spirit]
in their vessels [themselves] with their lamps [their Gospel].


Note: the Gospel of the Great Tribulation Saints is different than the Church Age Gospel
because the Great Tribulation Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15] the fulfillment of end-time prophecies,
in fact, the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" come to pass [Mat 24:33]. And, of course,
these Great Tribulation Saints PREACH (for the first time ever) about the fulfillment of ALL
Great Tribulation prophecies... as the Seventh Trumpet BEGINS to sound [Rev 10:7-11]


The SECOND "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried [when He did not appear as they prophesied],
they all [all the ten virgins, both the wise and foolish] slumbered and slept.
[they were quiet, without a Gospel]


The THIRD "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:6-9
And at midnight [during the third "watch of the night"] there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him [the virgins AGAIN predict His Return].
Then all those virgins arose [both the wise and foolish], and trimmed [changed] their lamps [Gospels].
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [Holy Spirit]; for our lamps [our Gospel]
are gone out [was not inspired]. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough
for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

[Note: at NO TIME during the Great Commission of the Church Age do Saints REFUSE to preach,
or send people to some other unnamed group for their salvation... this is the GT not the church age.
Again, at NO TIME after Pentecost did the Saints send people to another group for salvation]


The FOURTH "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:10
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom [Jesus] came [Returned];
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. [the final harvest is complete]


During the "Time of the End" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time" on earth [Dan 7:11-12]
AFTER the destruction of Daniel's Fourth Beast [also shown as the Revelation Beast [Rev 17],
ruling during the Great Tribulation]


Mat 25:11-13
Afterward [after the final harvest] came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Notice, the DOOR WAS SHUT in Matthew 25:10, indicating the final harvest was complete.
Harmonize that information with the passage below, which is just another perspective of the
same time - the time AFTER the final harvest is complete - and the DOOR WAS SHUT.


Luk 13:23-25
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in,
and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye BEGIN TO STAND WITHOUT, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say
unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten
and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you,
I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the [eternal] Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


So... you are correct that SOME DAYS of the Great Tribulation are "shortened" for the elect's sake.
However, you do not know WHEN those days are shortened [during the fourth "watch"]
because you do not understand the Bible's teaching on this matter.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Basically, Jesus is saying MAN can only work while he is alive.
Pete

Pete, men worked throughout the entire Great Commission as we sought to seek and save
all the lost sheep. So your theory is destroyed very quickly.


The Saints continue to preach (seek and save) throughout the entire Great Commission
of the Church Age. The Saints are "working" until something happens... the Last Saint
is saved and the Holy Spirit is then "taken out of the way" so that Satan can be loosened
from the Bottomless Pit to RULE during the Fourth Kingdom/Beast on earth... and the
"Man of Sin" is finally "revealed".


2Th 2:5-7
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth [the Holy Spirit restrains] that he [the Little Horn]
might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he
[the Holy Spirit] who now letteth will let, until he [the Holy Spirit] be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The lesson here is simple: The Holy Spirit restrains sin during the entire Church Age,
and then is "taken out of the way" so that Satan and his AntiChrist [the Man of Sin
or the False Prophet or the Little Horn or the Man of Sin] can RULE the Fourth Beast.


----------


You are INTENTIONALLY IGNORING all the passages offered in post #518 which talk about
there being four (4) separate periods during Daniel's Fourth Beast/the Revelation Beast/
the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"/Satan's "Little Season".


You cannot hope to find a Biblical understanding of the nature and scope of the Fourth Beast on earth
when you intentionally IGNORED all the passages (I provided) which address the
four "times" and "days" and "years" and "watches of the night".


Make no mistake, the "day" when men can "work" includes everything from Pentecost
until the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so Satan can be loosened from the Pit.
In fact, this was the very specific PROMISE that Jesus made:


Mat 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age. Amen.




Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Hey Jim,
Yes, the great tribulation started when Jesus’ night started. I don’t know where you pulled that from in Scripture, but I do agree.

Pete

Again, I would direct you to STUDY the verses provided in post #518.

In order to understand the Great Tribulation we need to FIRST understand the period is also shown
as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and (3) the reign of the "Little Horn"
during (4) Satan's "Little Season".

We know this absolutely because the PEOPLE from each perspective are the SAME PEOPLE.
They are the ones living on earth when the Lord Returns.

Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and
consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jim

 

[PeterJennen]

No, because it is specifically said to be shortened even more than originally intended.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"great" tribulation means worse than regular tribulation in this context, not long since it is being shortened.

ewq1938,

Yep, those days shall be shortened. How is it shortened, and by how much? Is the start delayed, or the end moved up? Just because a time period is shortened, doesn't mean it is short.

Here's how Dr. Strong defines the word "great": big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):—(+ fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, × to years.

Thanks for your efforts, but I'm going to have to say we see things different on this.

Pete

 

[PeterJennen]

Again, I would direct you to STUDY the verses provided in post #518.

In order to understand the Great Tribulation we need to FIRST understand the period is also shown
as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and (3) the reign of the "Little Horn"
during (4) Satan's "Little Season".

We know this absolutely because the PEOPLE from each perspective are the SAME PEOPLE.
They are the ones living on earth when the Lord Returns.

Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and
consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jim

Jim,
By chance, are you a 7th Day Adventist?

Pete

 

[PeterJennen]

First we have the great tribulation of Matt 24, which includes the plagues of Rev 16... and then we have the Rapture of John 15:1-3, 2 Thess 2:1-5.... so then No humans are left on the Earth after the rapture - Jer 4:23-26. The wicked are all destroyed 2 Thess 1:6-9 and Rev 19 ending make that clear. And the saints are taken to heaven -- John 14:1-3, Matt 24:29-31, 1 Thess 4:13-18

Hi Bob,
You do realize, you are posting in the "Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House"?

Pete

 

[PeterJennen]

You know something guys? I came on to this thread, which had been sitting idle for six months, and I posted an on topic piece. Admittedly, it was long. You guys come on here and immediately start in defending your perspectives. Actually, I think you are simply trying to bury my post.

I'm not here trying to prove that I'm right. I'm here trying to work through Scripture, with fellow Christians, in an effort to know WHAT is right. I would appreciate it if you folks would limit your comments to what I have presented or, keep your comments to yourself.

With that being said, here is my piece for folks to read and dialogue over:

Please forgive me for the amount of information I’m dumping here. My computer time is limited.

A Time, and Times, and a Half of Time

Most Christian scholars say the following verses from Daniel are a future event. I say that some of these prophecies have already been fulfilled, and some are in the process of being fulfilled in the present A.D. dispensation. I do not believe that “a time, and times, and half a time” is a 3 ½ year event.

We have to pick up the subject back in Daniel, chapter 11. Dan 11:40-45 And at the time of the end... And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

“I see Rome in the planted tabernacles of his palace.” So, we are at the time of the end. Now what?

Dan 12:1-2 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Michael stands up.

Rev 12:7-17 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If “time, times, and a half” is only 3 ½ years, the remnant of the woman’s seed wouldn’t be very big. Let’s not forget about them that sleep in the dust of earth awakening.

Mat 27:50-53 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This happened almost 2000 years ago. Why did they arise?

1Pet 3:18-19 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" 1Pet 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

How long is the time of the end? Remember Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:3-10 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (There is only one way to be righteous, and that is to repent and believe upon Jesus Christ.) 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Rev 10:5-7 5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Dan 12:8 fulfilled.)

1Co 15:50-55 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

We are changed at the last (7th )trumpet, those of us that are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Rev 11:15-18 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:6-13 KJV 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The ONLY way to be Holy is to believe upon the Lord, Jesus Christ.

On a side note: If you do a concordance search for the word “tribulation”, and read the verses in context, you will see how it is described as a future event before Jesus paid the price on the cross, and it is described as a current event after Jesus paid the price on the cross.

I hope you can see, we are changed at the end of the tribulation. I should add here: The great tribulation is not worse than any other, it is unlike any other. The tribulation is great, that is, it is large, vast, like the flood that comes out of the serpents mouth. Might the word "great" mean it is long?

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,
You do realize, you are posting in the "Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House"?

Pete

yes - Matt 24:29-31 makes it clear that the rapture happens post trib "immediately after the tribulation" Matt 24:29

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not here trying to prove that I'm right. I'm here trying to work through Scripture, with fellow Christians, in an effort to know WHAT is right. I would appreciate it if you folks would limit your comments to what I have presented or, keep your comments to yourself.

Peter you appear to be mistaken as to which thread this is -- Sojourner1 is the author of the thread... here is the OP. So it has a pretty broad agenda when it comes to post-trib rapture.

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the post-tribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a post-trib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

• This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the post-tribulation rapture.

• The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."

• If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.

• Members who do not believe in the post-tribulation rapture may post in fellowship only.

• No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm here trying to work through Scripture, with fellow Christians, in an effort to know WHAT is right. tion is not worse than any other, it is unlike any other. The tribulation is great, that is, it is large, vast, like the flood that comes out of the serpents mouth. Might the word "great" mean it is long?

You mention a lot of ideas in your post - do you just want us to know about your ideas or do you want to discuss one of them pros-vs-cons or questions etc?

 

[PeterJennen]

You mention a lot of ideas in your post - do you just want us to know about your ideas or do you want to discuss one of them pros-vs-cons or questions etc?

Bob,
Both.
I’m sorry, but it is probably going to be a couple of days before I can get back on the computer.
If you would be so kind, just start at the beginning and let me know only the first thing you see that you don’t agree with. For example, I see that Michael stood up almost 2000 years ago and cast Satan and his minions INto the earth.
Pete

 

[ewq1938]

ewq1938,

Yep, those days shall be shortened. How is it shortened, and by how much? Is the start delayed, or the end moved up? Just because a time period is shortened, doesn't mean it is short.

But it does mean it is shorter than before. The longest it was implied to be was 7 years from Daniel. In Rev we see it is half that long, 3.5 years/42 months. It is still "long" to us because 3.5 years of persecution etc is long but it's not as long as 7 years.

 

[Wit's End]

So you are saying Jesus LIED when He taught there would be four "watches of the night"?
In fact, the best chronology of the Great Tribulation is Matthew 25:1-13,
that passage is the most succinct version of GT "watches".


The FIRST "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:1-4
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from their churches]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat/sheep],
and five were foolish [unsaved tares/goats in the church] They that were foolish took
their lamps, and took no oil [Holy Spirit] with them: But the wise took oil [Holy Spirit]
in their vessels [themselves] with their lamps [their Gospel].


Note: the Gospel of the Great Tribulation Saints is different than the Church Age Gospel
because the Great Tribulation Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15] the fulfillment of end-time prophecies,
in fact, the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" come to pass [Mat 24:33]. And, of course,
these Great Tribulation Saints PREACH (for the first time ever) about the fulfillment of ALL
Great Tribulation prophecies... as the Seventh Trumpet BEGINS to sound [Rev 10:7-11]


The SECOND "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried [when He did not appear as they prophesied],
they all [all the ten virgins, both the wise and foolish] slumbered and slept.
[they were quiet, without a Gospel]


The THIRD "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:6-9
And at midnight [during the third "watch of the night"] there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him [the virgins AGAIN predict His Return].
Then all those virgins arose [both the wise and foolish], and trimmed [changed] their lamps [Gospels].
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [Holy Spirit]; for our lamps [our Gospel]
are gone out [was not inspired]. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough
for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

[Note: at NO TIME during the Great Commission of the Church Age do Saints REFUSE to preach,
or send people to some other unnamed group for their salvation... this is the GT not the church age.
Again, at NO TIME after Pentecost did the Saints send people to another group for salvation]


The FOURTH "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:10
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom [Jesus] came [Returned];
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. [the final harvest is complete]


During the "Time of the End" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time" on earth [Dan 7:11-12]
AFTER the destruction of Daniel's Fourth Beast [also shown as the Revelation Beast [Rev 17],
ruling during the Great Tribulation]


Mat 25:11-13
Afterward [after the final harvest] came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Notice, the DOOR WAS SHUT in Matthew 25:10, indicating the final harvest was complete.
Harmonize that information with the passage below, which is just another perspective of the
same time - the time AFTER the final harvest is complete - and the DOOR WAS SHUT.


Luk 13:23-25
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in,
and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye BEGIN TO STAND WITHOUT, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say
unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten
and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you,
I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the [eternal] Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


So... you are correct that SOME DAYS of the Great Tribulation are "shortened" for the elect's sake.
However, you do not know WHEN those days are shortened [during the fourth "watch"]
because you do not understand the Bible's teaching on this matter.


Jim

 

[Wit's End]

So you are saying Jesus LIED when He taught there would be four "watches of the night"?
In fact, the best chronology of the Great Tribulation is Matthew 25:1-13,
that passage is the most succinct version of GT "watches".


The FIRST "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:1-4
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from their churches]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat/sheep],
and five were foolish [unsaved tares/goats in the church] They that were foolish took
their lamps, and took no oil [Holy Spirit] with them: But the wise took oil [Holy Spirit]
in their vessels [themselves] with their lamps [their Gospel].


Note: the Gospel of the Great Tribulation Saints is different than the Church Age Gospel
because the Great Tribulation Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15] the fulfillment of end-time prophecies,
in fact, the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" come to pass [Mat 24:33]. And, of course,
these Great Tribulation Saints PREACH (for the first time ever) about the fulfillment of ALL
Great Tribulation prophecies... as the Seventh Trumpet BEGINS to sound [Rev 10:7-11]


The SECOND "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried [when He did not appear as they prophesied],
they all [all the ten virgins, both the wise and foolish] slumbered and slept.
[they were quiet, without a Gospel]


The THIRD "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:6-9
And at midnight [during the third "watch of the night"] there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him [the virgins AGAIN predict His Return].
Then all those virgins arose [both the wise and foolish], and trimmed [changed] their lamps [Gospels].
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [Holy Spirit]; for our lamps [our Gospel]
are gone out [was not inspired]. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough
for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

[Note: at NO TIME during the Great Commission of the Church Age do Saints REFUSE to preach,
or send people to some other unnamed group for their salvation... this is the GT not the church age.
Again, at NO TIME after Pentecost did the Saints send people to another group for salvation]


The FOURTH "time/day/year/watch of the night"

Mat 25:10
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom [Jesus] came [Returned];
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. [the final harvest is complete]


During the "Time of the End" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time" on earth [Dan 7:11-12]
AFTER the destruction of Daniel's Fourth Beast [also shown as the Revelation Beast [Rev 17],
ruling during the Great Tribulation]


Mat 25:11-13
Afterward [after the final harvest] came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Notice, the DOOR WAS SHUT in Matthew 25:10, indicating the final harvest was complete.
Harmonize that information with the passage below, which is just another perspective of the
same time - the time AFTER the final harvest is complete - and the DOOR WAS SHUT.


Luk 13:23-25
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in,
and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye BEGIN TO STAND WITHOUT, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say
unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten
and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you,
I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping
and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the [eternal] Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


So... you are correct that SOME DAYS of the Great Tribulation are "shortened" for the elect's sake.
However, you do not know WHEN those days are shortened [during the fourth "watch"]
because you do not understand the Bible's teaching on this matter.


Jim