Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[BobRyan]

You still say verse 31 goes before verse 30.

Nope. I claim vs 30 happens first and then vs 31.

Very different from your clam that vs 31 happens way before vs 29 and before all texts about tribulation as well that happen before vs 29

 

[BobRyan]

Verse 30 gets it right! It begins with, “Then will appear …”) which is clearly the first mention of Jesus in these three verses.

Do you get it? Verse 31’s secondary mentioning (“And he will”) can’t possibly immediately follow verse 29 that has no mention of Jesus. Verse 30 (“Then will appear …”) is the primary mention of Jesus.

It is therefore linguistically impossible for verse 31, a secondary mentioning (“And he will”) to immediately come after verse 29 (with no mentioning of Jesus).

The Bible thoroughly proves you SDA’s are completely wrong.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)

1. After the tribulation
2. the Son of man appears
3. All nations see Him
4. His coming is on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory
5. He sends Angles to gather the elect "from one end of the sky to the other"

the sequence of events listed in the text is perfect, in order without the need to be shuffled unless one has a bias for eisegesis feels the need to resort to shuffling vs 31 back a few verses BEFORE vs 29.

This is irrefutable.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)

1. After the tribulation
2. the Son of man appears
3. All nations see Him
4. His coming is on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory
5. He sends Angles to gather the elect "from one end of the sky to the other"

the sequence of events listed in the text is perfect, in order without the need to be shuffled unless one has a bias for eisegesis feels the need to resort to shuffling vs 31 back a few verses BEFORE vs 29.

This is irrefutable.

You are still altering the verse 30. Read it. There’s no pause, no delay. Heaven opens up? Sand Jesus returns to Earth and goes right into Armageddon.

Nope. I claim vs 30 happens first and then vs 31.

Very different from your clam that vs 31 happens way before vs 29 and before all texts about tribulation as well that happen before vs 29

Where do the gathered go, in verse 31? When do they go? When does Armageddon (Rev 19:11-16)
occur? It occurs between verses 30 and 31.

 

[BobRyan]

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)

1. After the tribulation
2. the Son of man appears
3. All nations see Him
4. His coming is on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory
5. He sends Angles to gather the elect "from one end of the sky to the other"

the sequence of events listed in the text is perfect, in order without the need to be shuffled unless one has a bias for eisegesis feels the need to resort to shuffling vs 31 back a few verses BEFORE vs 29.

This is irrefutable.

You are still altering the verse 30. Read it.

it is a verbatim quote in NASB.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)

I am quoting, not changing.

What is the "delay" you are talking about??

There’s no pause, no delay.

what delay??

Heaven opens up? Sand Jesus returns to Earth and goes right into Armageddon.

Rev 19 shows that happening when Jesus appears. all the armies of the earth wiped out.

Where do the gathered go

He appears and raptures the saints in Matt 24 just as we see in 1 Thess 4:16-18. No delay

, in verse 31? When do they go?

At His appearing as stated in vs 30

When does Armageddon (Rev 19:11-16)
occur?

At His appearing. Vs 30 and 31 all happen at the same time and you can see it in Rev 19 as well

It occurs between verses 30 and 31.

Jesus does not mention Armageddon in that text but it is there at His appearing as Rev 19 tells us. Paul also describes it that way in
2 Thess 2

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

it is a verbatim quote in NASB.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)

I am quoting, not changing.

What is the "delay" you are talking about??

what delay??

Rev 19 shows that happening when Jesus appears. all the armies of the earth wiped out.

He appears and raptures the saints in Matt 24 just as we see in 1 Thess 4:16-18. No delay

At His appearing as stated in vs 30

At His appearing. Vs 30 and 31 all happen at the same time and you can see it in Rev 19 as well

Jesus does not mention Armageddon in that text but it is there at His appearing as Rev 19 tells us. Paul also describes it that way in
2 Thess 2

Matt 24:31 only gathers locally. No one knows, for sure, where those gathered end up. The best guess is the judgments in Matt 25:31-46.

1 Th 4:16-17 are the rapture straight to Heaven that occurs seven years before the 2A.

You’re ignoring that the trumpets in those two events do not match in purpose.

You’re also ignoring that in the 2A (Mat 24:30), Jesus returns to Earth for the 2A, Armageddon (Rev 19:19-21), then the Millennial Kingfom. That means Jesus is on Earth for 1,000 years (Rev 20:1-6).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

it is a verbatim quote in NASB.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (rapture)

I am quoting, not changing.

What is the "delay" you are talking about??

what delay??

Rev 19 shows that happening when Jesus appears. all the armies of the earth wiped out.

He appears and raptures the saints in Matt 24 just as we see in 1 Thess 4:16-18. No delay

At His appearing as stated in vs 30

At His appearing. Vs 30 and 31 all happen at the same time and you can see it in Rev 19 as well

Jesus does not mention Armageddon in that text but it is there at His appearing as Rev 19 tells us. Paul also describes it that way in
2 Thess 2

Matt 24 is a very brief summary of the 7-year Trib, and an extremely short summary of the 2A and the gathering after the 2A.

Armageddon (not by that name) is in Rev 19:11-21. These verses also summarize the 2A, and then Armageddon. The AC and the false prophet are captured in verse 20.

Rev 19:11-21 (ESV): Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 is a very brief summary of the 7-year Trib

Matt 24 makes no mention at all of a future 7 year tribulation

, and an extremely short summary of the 2A and the gathering after the 2A.

Armageddon (not by that name) is in Rev 19:11-21.

Armageddon is in Rev 16, Rev 19 and Rev 20 with Gog and Magog gathered against the Holy City in Rev 21.

That is not mentioned at all in Matt 24. So then just sticking with what we have in Matt 24 since it so explicitly puts the tribulation section before the rapture event in vs 30-31

These verses also summarize the 2A, and then Armageddon. The AC and the false prophet are captured in verse 20.

No mention of that at all in vs 20. But I do agree that it fits in with the tribulation events prior to vs 29. And of course AFTER the tribulation we have vs 30-31 rapture as vs 29 reminds us

The whole point of this thread is the detail about the post-trib rapture as we see it in Matt 24:29-31

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24:31 only gathers locally.

from "one end of the SKY to the other" has nothing about "local only"
"ALL nations will see" has nothing in it about "Local only"

No one knows, for sure, where those gathered end up.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is just like Matt 24 , it does not explicitly say "end up in heaven" but we know that is exactly what happens at the rapture. The saints are taken to heaven

1 Th 4:16-17 are the rapture straight to Heaven

Yep. Just like Matt 24. That is the only reason ever given in the NT for all saints being up in the sky

that occurs seven years before the 2A.

Nothing in 1 Thess 4 or Matt 24 says anything.

Nope. Nothing at all about seven years of anything at all in Matt 24 or 1 Thess 4 or Rev 19

You’re ignoring that the trumpets in those two events do not match in purpose.

in fact they do. The mark the taking up of the saints into the sky

You’re also ignoring that in the 2A (Mat 24:30), Jesus returns to Earth for the 2A, Armageddon (Rev 19:19-21),

There is appear in the sky in Matt 24 and Rev 19 but there is no "lands on Earth" in either chapter.

John 14 "I will come again and receive you (up) to Myself" , when Jesus appears in Matt 24, 1 Thess 4, Rev 14, Rev 19 He takes the saints to heaven. It is one singular event as John 14 says.

1000 years later we have the final Armageddon battle, the first one being in Rev 19 and also seen in 2 Thess 1:5-8

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Matt 24 makes no mention at all of a future 7 year tribulation

Armageddon is in Rev 16, Rev 19 and Rev 20 with Gog and Magog gathered against the Holy City in Rev 21.

That is not mentioned at all in Matt 24. So then just sticking with what we have in Matt 24 since it so explicitly puts the tribulation section before the rapture event in vs 30-31

No mention of that at all in vs 20. But I do agree that it fits in with the tribulation events prior to vs 29. And of course AFTER the tribulation we have vs 30-31 rapture as vs 29 reminds us

The whole point of this thread is the detail about the post-trib rapture as we see it in Matt 24:29-31

Here is a comparison of Matt 24:5-9 and Rev 6. Matt 24:5-9 is absolutely a summary of Rev 6, the seal judgements. Matt 24:29 is described in Rev 6:12–14.

False messiahs and deception: Jesus warns of false messiahs in Matthew 24:5, and the first seal in Revelation 6:2 shows a rider on a white horse with a crown and bow, symbolizing conquest and deception.

War and conflict: Matthew 24:6-7 describes "nation will rise against nation," while the second seal in Revelation 6:4 depicts a red horse whose rider is granted power to take peace from the earth and cause people to slaughter one another.

Famine and economic hardship: Jesus mentions famine and earthquakes in Matthew 24:7, which parallels the third seal in Revelation 6:5-6, showing a black horse with a rider holding a pair of scales, symbolizing severe famine.

Death and pestilence: The fourth seal in Revelation 6:8 introduces a pale horse with a rider named Death, followed by Hades, signifying pestilence and death on a massive scale, which is an intensification of the signs mentioned in Matthew.

Martyrdom: Matthew 24:9 foretells persecution and death for believers. Revelation 6:9–11 graphically depicts this through the fifth seal, where the souls of martyrs cry out for justice.

Cosmic signs and judgment: Both texts describe celestial events preceding Jesus' return. Matthew 24:29 mentions cosmic disturbances, and the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12–14 portrays the sun turning black, the moon becoming like blood, and stars falling from the sky.

The Second Coming: While Matthew 24 concludes with Jesus' spectacular return, Revelation's final seal leads to the trumpet judgments, ultimately culminating in the establishment of God's kingdom. Both texts end with the promised return of Christ and the assurance of future redemption.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

from "one end of the SKY to the other" has nothing about "local only"
"ALL nations will see" has nothing in it about "Local only"

1 Thess 4:13-18 is just like Matt 24 , it does not explicitly say "end up in heaven" but we know that is exactly what happens at the rapture. The saints are taken to heaven

Yep. Just like Matt 24. That is the only reason ever given in the NT for all saints being up in the sky



Nothing in 1 Thess 4 or Matt 24 says anything.

Nope. Nothing at all about seven years of anything at all in Matt 24 or 1 Thess 4 or Rev 19

in fact they do. The mark the taking up of the saints into the sky

There is appear in the sky in Matt 24 and Rev 19 but there is no "lands on Earth" in either chapter.

John 14 "I will come again and receive you (up) to Myself" , when Jesus appears in Matt 24, 1 Thess 4, Rev 14, Rev 19 He takes the saints to heaven. It is one singular event as John 14 says.

1000 years later we have the final Armageddon battle, the first one being in Rev 19 and also seen in 2 Thess 1:5-8

“Locally” was intended as “Earth,” as opposed to a rapture to Heaven.

Again, the trumpet in Matt 24:31 gathers “the elect” (Jews that survive the Trib) after Armageddon. That trumpet only gathers living Jews who survive the Trib (Matt 24:22). There’s no verbiage that even suggests going to Heaven.

The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 first gathers the dead in Christ. Matt 24:31 doesn’t do any of that. 1 Th 4:17 then gathers all living believers. Matt 24:31 only gathers Jews. 1 Th 4:17 takes all gathered in 1 Th 4:16 to Heaven. Those gathered in Matt 24:31 remain on Earth. Jesus is on Earth for Matt 25:31-46, then the millennial kingdom for 1,000 years on Earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

from "one end of the SKY to the other" has nothing about "local only"
"ALL nations will see" has nothing in it about "Local only"

1 Thess 4:13-18 is just like Matt 24 , it does not explicitly say "end up in heaven" but we know that is exactly what happens at the rapture. The saints are taken to heaven

Yep. Just like Matt 24. That is the only reason ever given in the NT for all saints being up in the sky



Nothing in 1 Thess 4 or Matt 24 says anything.

Nope. Nothing at all about seven years of anything at all in Matt 24 or 1 Thess 4 or Rev 19

in fact they do. The mark the taking up of the saints into the sky

There is appear in the sky in Matt 24 and Rev 19 but there is no "lands on Earth" in either chapter.

John 14 "I will come again and receive you (up) to Myself" , when Jesus appears in Matt 24, 1 Thess 4, Rev 14, Rev 19 He takes the saints to heaven. It is one singular event as John 14 says.

1000 years later we have the final Armageddon battle, the first one being in Rev 19 and also seen in 2 Thess 1:5-8

Armageddon occurs in Rev 19:19-21.

A thousand years later, the millennial kingdom ends in Rev 20:7.

Then, Satan is let loose and he organizes an attack on the camp of the saints in Rev 20:8-9. That attack is stopped by God in verse 9. Satan is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:10.

The GWTJ (Great White Thrown of Judgment) occurs in Rev 20:11-15. That completes the last judgment, and that ends Earth.