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Post-Trib Rapture Confirmed

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by stratman44, Feb 16, 2002.

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  1. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Messianic
    There are two tribes that never let go of Fathers word, and they
    exist to this day. They are the tribe of Judah, and the tribe of
    Levi.

    The other ten tribes where scatered because of they're idols,
    other gods, ect.

    The first group, or church is Philadelphia.
    The second are the peoples of the other churches that choose to
    follow His truth, and not the doctrine of man that many follow.

    Rev 18:4
    And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come
    out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and
    that ye receive not of her plagues.

    This is taking place at this time. The tribulation is just around the
    corner, I had said in another post that I believe that we will be
    in the tribulation in 7 years or less. Frankly, I feel in my spirit, it
    could begin in the next couple of months or less....

    Father is calling His people out right now. He is calling His people
    back to the truth, to follow His ways, and not they're own. The ten
    lost tribes are finding out that they were not so lost after all. Father
    has always known where they where.

    I hope that I answered your question clearly, if not let me know.

    Patrick
     
  2. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Patrick, do you feel this way (about the tribulation) because of what is happening in Jerusalem /or other? thanks
     
  3. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    Wildfire

    It would be very hard for me to share all my sources here....
    It would take up this whole website..... ;)

    We are told in our Fathers word to watch Israel, that is where
    everything will take place.

    Have read emails from people who live in Israel, and tell me
    whats happening there.

    There are followers who are at this time being murdered for
    they're belife in the God of Israel, and this is happening in
    court systems in the mid-east, not some rampent killings in
    the streets. These people are being tried as blasphemers
    of the god of Islam, yet we are to believe that these believers
    mean no harm....... Yea, right..........

    The UN has turned it's back on Israel, as well as the US at the
    UN meeting.

    The US has, right now at this time, troops in Iraq, getting ready
    for military action.

    Russia has warned the US "Do not attack Iraq"
    I say, do not attack Iraq, or what???????

    There is talk on the short wave radio, that the US military is ready
    to implement the computer chip implants when called to do so....
    Really??????? HHmmmm, wonder what that means????

    If you'd like more, I have plenty to share.....

    We are told that the time of anti-christ has a season. The time
    of the locust.....

    If we make it through this harvest season with no anti-christ
    showing up, keep your eye's peeled for next season..... The time
    to study is now, there is no time left to argue if the KJ bible is
    the right version or not, thats a waste of time, and it's just what
    satan himself wants........ Along with other things that are
    worthless to argue about.......

    Patrick
     
  4. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Interesting link you posted there patrick, unfortunately there were many verses left out, probably because they would have cast serious doubt upon what the author was trying to prove. At least he got the first fruits, and harvest, but where are the gleanings? You know, that part of the field that is missed during the harvest?

    Since he missed the gleanings (which is as integral as first fruits) he also by necessity ignored other resurections and completely failed to explain their significance.

    The link was interesting, but with all teachings that take a verse here, take a verse there, and apply a little bit of logic, they usually fail because prohecy isn't so simple that you can take a few verses and come up with a simple answer.

    If you're going to defend the little scenario the author played out you'll have to prove that the trib saints are actually the main harvest, not gleanings, and tell us how gleanings fit into the harvest parable, who are they? You'll also have to account for the other resurections (which i've listed in this thread in a previous post).
     
  5. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    Hi Willis Deal

    I do have a response to your post, but before I respond, can
    you give me the scripture you refer to here?

    Thanks
    Patrick
     
  6. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    My post was made in reference to the agriculture analogy. In biblical agriculture you have planting, (sowing) watering, first fruits, harvest, and gleaning. Since we have Jesus as first-fruits of those who sleep (dead) we can ignore sowing and watering and proceed to harvest and gleaning. Harvest is of course 'resurection of the dead in Christ' and 'rapture', I think we agree on these points. The author of the link you posted didn't take into account the rest of the analogy, ie 'gleaning'.

    ----------Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather [every] grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I [am] the LORD your God. --------------------

    If God is going to go to the trouble of comparing resurection to harvest, and take it a bit further and show Jesus as first-fruits He surely isn't going to give us a half-baked parable and let the analogy break down without a correlation to gleaning.
     
  7. Halleluiah

    Halleluiah "Repent and be baptized.." ACT 2:38

    7
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    Why am I for post-trib?? Because it is soo obvious in scriptures. The rapture and the resurrection happen at the same time at the 'end of the tribulation.' there is no 'secret' rapture because that doctine CONTRADICTS the words of Christ in
    MATTHEW Chapter 13--when He says that WHEAT AND TARES WOULD GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE "END OF THE WORLD" and then would be separated.
    According to the 2-stage teaching/pre-trib (or 2-part) of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world...And what about the promise of the resurrection?

    Christ said, concerning the righteous,
    "And I will raise him up THE LAST DAY." John 6:40

    No one denies that it means the last day of the world.

    Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the SAME TIME THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE RAISED.
    1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.


    Plus the Pre-Tribs hang onto the texts which liken the Lord's coming to "a thief in the night." They assume that this must be a quiet, secret coming. But does it really mean that?? It definitely does not.

    Here is 2 Peter 3:10:

    "The day of the Lord will come as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

    It is with great noise!!

    Regarding the FAITHFUL ONES in relation to the tribulation, Jesus said:
    "They have kept thy word...I pray NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil."

    This rules out the secret rapture entirely. The text that is used to prove the rapture is seen actually to FORBID the saints being taken out of this world during the time of trouble (like the Great Tribulation).


    All references and most texts quoted from

    http://wedie.org/rapture.htm


    The web page above explains that view very clearly...

    :)
     
  8. Halleluiah

    Halleluiah "Repent and be baptized.." ACT 2:38

    7
    +0


    Right on Patrick! I read this page and it agrees with my view on the Rapture! How can it be less clear?? Thanks!!
     
  9. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    brothers and sisters.

    I hope you understand that I love you, but I grow weary of going around this same mountain so I'm going to be blunt. If you want to prove your belief is correct then please start by answering my objections, not by piling on more and more verses and posting more and more links which just recycle the same old tired theories. Believe me, I can refute those verses easily and show that you are reading into them what you want to read into them. And please stop assigning beliefs to me which i've not stated, such as: -----Pre-Tribs hang onto the texts which liken the Lord's coming to "a thief in the night." They assume that this must be a quiet, secret coming. ---- I have certainly not made any such statement, so stop refuting statements I haven't made and start explaining verses I've pointed out.

    I have purposely avoided the standard verses which are used to 'prove' a pre-trib rapture. They are open to interpretation and there are plenty of websites which explore these common verses and offer alternative interpretations. I have done this to force you to think, not just run to your search engine and cut and paste someone elses ideas and offer them as absolute authority.
     
  10. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

    45
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    :eek: :D You just unwittingly proved the point of us who believe that the Rapture is before the last three and 1/2 years! As you yourself stated, "THE DAY OF THE LORD" will come as a thief in the night. 2 Thess 2 says THAT DAY- and it explains that means the Day of Christ, same as the Day of the LORD, shall come as a thief in the night. THAT DAY will be all darkness and no light in it, as the Old Testament explains. The only light will be for the 144,000 sealed Jews from 12 tribes, who have just become Christians right after the Rapture, and there will also be a SMALL remnant of elect JEWS left alive to fulfill the promise for the millennium. Non-Jews left alive at the second coming who are saints aren't given any guarantees, in fact Rev. 13 states the Antichrist will overcome the saints. Back to 2 Thess 2, the falling away and the revealing of Antichrist have to come before THAT DAY- the great and terrible (horrible) day of darkness. We do not believe THAT DAY means the Rapture or Jesus' coming, because 2 Thess 2 explains clearly it means THE DAY OF CHRIST, or of darkness. It also explains THAT DAY is for "them" not "us" and there are so many passages that tell us God is not going to leave us here for THAT DAY! The only ones who spout "secret Rapture" and that kind of thing are those who don't believe in the Rapture!---placesofrefuge
     
  11. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Hello Willis Deal

    Okay, that is the verse that I would have refered you to.
    It tells us to leave the gleanings on the ground for the pour.
    If you are to leave the gleanings, then I don't know how this
    could refer to being raptured, when we are told to leave them.

    Kind of like the good branches will be kept, and the bad will
    be cut and thrown in the fire.

    Some of those branches (churches) produce good fruit, but some
    of the fruit will be dropped on the ground and left (gleanings)
    and some branches will be cut off all together (churches).

    We can see in revelations that, only one church was found without
    sin, the other six we see, He has a little something against. Yet
    there are people in those other six churches that He calls out, and
    will except because they will listen to Him, and not those doctrines
    of man. (churches).

    Hope this has covered some of your questions.
    Patrick
     
  12. Halleluiah

    Halleluiah "Repent and be baptized.." ACT 2:38

    7
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    Willis Deal and PlaceOfRefuge,

    I am simply stating my view about the Tribulation according to what I agree with in those articles and who I agree with in this forum. And Willis, I don't see anything wrong with cutting and pasting something and posting it up on here as long as I'm in agreement with it (I am simply sharing a view and backing it up with scriptures as to how I see it--just like you all do)... And if it offended you in any way...again we are entitled to our own opinion. Q: Have either one of you come to a CONCLUSION about your belief on whether it's pre-trib, post-trib, etc because perhaps I assume you are still questioning it? As for myself I have come to the conclusion that it is post-trib because of how I view and make SENSE of the scriptures. God is not a God of confusion! Again, we are all entitled to our own opinion. I know this is one of those differences we have and I believe it is only then when it all occurs when we will really know who's really wrong or right. We all know this TOPIC is TOO COMPLEX to begin with!! And I have prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth regarding the end times and I pray for you to receive too. Thank you for replying! May God always guide you.
     
  13. Halleluiah

    Halleluiah "Repent and be baptized.." ACT 2:38

    7
    +0
  14. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    I believe in the pre-tribulational rapture.

    At the Second Coming of Christ, Christ will return with "the armies of heaven", "clothed in fine linen, white and clean". (Revelation 19:14) These are the redeemed saints, the saved of all ages. These armies are also described in Jude 14: "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints."

    Who was Enoch? He was a man who lived before the Flood, who was translated at age 365. It is interesting that 365 is the number of days in a year in the Gentile calendar. And he was raptured before the last time the wrath of God was upon all the Earth, which was the Flood. I view Enoch as a firgurative type of Gentile Christianity being raptured before the next "flood", which is the 70th week of Daniel. It is interesting that Daniel 9:26 says the end would be "with a flood".

    Enoch even made the list of great men of faith in Hebrews 11: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death: and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." -Hebrews 11:5.

    What happens to those on the Earth at the Second Coming?

    Their blood will flow to the horse's bridle. (Revelation 14:20) And the fowls will be filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:21) The description of these people are found in Revelation 19:18: "all men, both free and bond, both small and great".

    The Second Coming is the Wrath of Almighty God (Revelation 19:15.) where the Lord treads the winepress with the fierceness of His wrath. Paul said "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."-I Thessalonians 5:9
     
  15. kobebryantswissh

    kobebryantswissh One of a Kind!

    11
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    I personally think there will be only ONE rapture. That leads to the tribulation, the worst shape the earth will ever be in, and then after the tribulation when christ comes back, you just better hope you have dedicated your life to God.
     
  16. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    Jen,

    I was out of order and I apologize to you. I did not mean to convey that your post was unwelcome or the presentation was wrong. That was not the idea I meant to convey. Rather than try to to explain again and possibly make matters worse I'll simply apologize and ask your forgiveness.
     
  17. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    Patrick,

    Your post implies that the gleanings are somehow inferior fruit. However, the two verses I quoted don't carry this same inference. We have two examples, a field, and a vineyard. The field's corners are not to be wholly reaped. Wheat growing in the corner of a field is not inferior to wheat growing in the center of the field. In like manner, grapes which are not yet mature at time of harvest are not inferior, they just haven't fully matured. And the purpose of leaving the fruit in the field was for the poor, the stranger, the orphan, etc. For me, comparing the apostate churches as rotten fruit that falls to the ground for the poor, the orphan, and stranger just doesn't work. Do you see what I mean?

    Putting that aside for the moment... let's assume for a moment that you are correct and gleanings just aren't that important in the scheme of things. How do you account for the multiple resurections that are mentioned in other verses?
     
  18. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    Jen,

    I see the timeline differently. I don't submit that my timeline is correct or without error. It is only what I have personally worked out from my understanding of the scripture and what God has revealed to me. I'm not going to try to defend my position or offer a multitude of verses because I don't have all my notes and it would make for too long a post.

    1. Resurection of dead in christ and rapture
    2. Seven seals with the second seal to the seventh seal being the time known as 'The beginning of Sorrows. The period between the second seal and the fifth seal lasts for 900 days. The sixth and seventh seals lasts for 360 days and it is at the sixth seal that the two witnesses arise in Israel. At the seventh seal the AC sits in the temple declaring he is God.
    3. First trumpet followed by first vial lasting 150 days
    4. second trumpet through sixth trumpet and second vial through sixth vial occur just as in (3) above, each trumpet/vial lasting 150 days.
    5. Seventh trumpet, two witnesses killed, resurected along with OT saints.
    6. Sabbath year of rest for the land
    7. Armageddon, Christ returns on white horse sets up kingdom and judges nations for a period of 15 days.
     
  19. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    Jen,

    You posted this link: http://wedie.org/rapture.htm

    Since you acknowledge that you agree with the article indulge me while I quote from this article and make some observations. This is going to be a long post but the article was rather long and I don't have the luxury of posting a link, I'll just do this off the top of my head.

    ----------But the truth is that the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings of Jesus-----------


    ----------------When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle." Revelation 14:14. This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world." Matthew 13:39. "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."-------------------

    If you read Rev: 14-14 you'll notice a small detail the author left out...'Having on his head A GOLDEN CROWN' The emphasis is added because it plainly states one crown. Let's skip over to Rev: 19, 12 "... on His head were MANY CROWNS"

    Ask yourself, 'If these aren't two seperate events then why would John describe the primary person in the first event as wearing one crown but in another place wearing many crowns? Why is it that in one place he is sitting on a cloud but in another he is sitting on a horse? Can these really refer to the same event?

    -----------Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?-------------------

    This is an obvious misunderstanding of 'the last day' and 'end of the world'. The thousand year reign of Christ is called 'The day of the Lord' This is the last day, a sabbath day. When understood properly the resurection could occur any time during this thousand year period and fulfill the requirement for being 'The last day'. I won't go into the last trump thing again because I've explored this in a previous post at the beginning of this thread. I'm sorry to disappoint the authors of the article but there is no very last moment of time. 1Ch 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word [which] he commanded to a thousand generations;" How long is a generation? depending upon the verse you use it can range from 40-70 years, so we're talking 40,000 plus years. The end of the world is not the destruction of the planet, but a destruction of society, world government, when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God.

    ----------------And here's the crowning clarification in this whole thing. Revelation 20:4 assures us that some of those who are raised in the first resurrection will be those who refused to worship the beast and receive his mark! How completely this demolishes the futuristic school of prophetic interpretation is evident, for they claim that the emergence of the Antichrist and the imposition of his mark are to be looked for after the first resurrection and what they call the secret rapture. -----------------

    ------------the Antichrist must have already been on the stage of action carrying on his oppressive work before the "first resurrection" and well before the second coming of Jesus.--------


    Again, in an earlier post in this thread I've shown how Jesus was first fruits of the resurection. The first resurection began two thousand years ago and concludes with the resurection of the trib saints. It is proven conclusively that the first resurection has AT LEAST two stages and my posts to patrick exploring the harvest shows a three stage resurection. This is confirmed when you read all the verses which discuss resurections. The authors haven't used a verse which completely demolishes the futuristic school of prophetic interpretation, they have only shown their own ignorance of a topic they are writing about.

    The inexcusable mistake which the authors make is the teaching that Jesus comes, destroys the earth, the righteous go to heaven, the wicked go to hell, end of story. Does their bible end with Rev: 19? Who are those deceived after Satan is released after the thousand years? If the righteous go to heaven and the wicked go to hell who will be deceived?

    I could go on and on, but I've gone on too long already. I hope I've provided enough material to provoke you to think, pray, and reread your bible. If there isn't enough material in this post go back and read my others on this thread.
     
  20. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    ;) :D :p :rolleyes: I'm going to clear up another argument the post-tribbers use once and for all. They like to refer to the first resurrection in Rev. 20:5. In context, it says that it's actually after the thousand years (millennial reign of Jesus on earth) is finished and on them the second death (the great white throne judgment for the damned, when they are removed from hell to be judged and cast back in, plus the new Jewish children born during the millennium and who will choose to rebel at the end of the thousand years, but that's another story) but to get back to the argument used there. It's invalid. First of all, you see all through the scriptures that when people die, they are resurrected. There in an instance in Samuel's time when a dead man was was called back (still dead) and when Jesus was resurrected, so were all of the dead saved on earth before going on up to heaven. But again, not the point. In Rev. 6 at the 5th seal judgment, the martyred saints from NOW are asking when Jesus will avenge their martyrdom, and in Rev. 7 you see a reunion between them, the dead in Christ, and the Raptured Saints, along with the 144,000 newly sealed Christian Jews (right after the Rapture) and the dead, martyred and Raptured are joined in Rev. 7 in heaven. In heaven, in Rev. 4 & 5 you see them also in heaven. In Rev. 14, again you see life of humans in heaven, this time the 144,000 (another Rapture?) In the Psalms and other places, like Matthew 25, you see the virgins being "hid" safely away in heaven before the Day of the LORD or three and one half year reign of Antichrist. You also see the wedding feast in heaven, before Jesus comes at the second coming, Etc., Etc. And, as someone so accurately pointed out, in Jude 14 and Zech. 14, as well as Revelation, you see all of these hoardes of heavenly hosts coming back WITH Jesus. You have also seen the judgment in heaven of the righteous, before the wedding feast. So a post trib Rapture is not correct. But what about the pesky "first resurrection"? you ask! Well, if you look up meaning, it's a root, regenerating itself, and the greater possibility, if you are going to place it AT Rev. 20:5, is that the remnant of elect Jews are going to return to Adam and Eve-like state, for the first time! This is how they will reproduce children in that state, and people (Jewish) born during the 1000 years will also live most likely - barring unique circumstances- the whole duration!Something else for the poor beat-up survivors to look forward to!---placesofrefuge
     
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