Post-Trib Rapture Confirmed

[stratman44]

Hi everyone and Praise the Lord!

Does everyone agree that Jesus will "rapture" the Church on the "last trump" ?

Here is the most quoted verse concerning the "rapture" of the church.......

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump : for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now remember, last trump means last trump right? There will be no more trumpets sounded after this one. Nadda more trumpets. Correct? Last means no more afterward.

Ok, now read these verses very very carefully and notice a trumpet is being sounded.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet , and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


I find this to be undisputable. Unless, some would tell me there will be yet another trump after the last trump discussed in 1 Cor 15:52? Last be last and there be no more.

Come on brothers and sisters! The harvest shall be overflowing during the Great Tribulation! Let us prepare to reap the harvest for the Lord! Praise the Lord!

Your brother in Christ
Steven

 

[camaro540]

Praise by to our Father, and Jesus Christ !!!!!
Steven, you've got it !!!

Our Fathers word is so beautiful, it tastes so sweet,
we have nothing to fear, for fear is the tool of the
devil........

The Holy Spirit of God will be poured out more and more in these
last days, and in Him will be strength like none other !!! We have
nothing to fear, for God is our strength, and He will give us all
that we need !!!

I pray that our Father would open eye's to this spiritual truth.
I pray, and ask our Father in the mighty name of JESUS, these
strong holds of satan be broken !!

These children are Gods children, and in JESUS name, I say let
them go !! Not by my strength, but by the strength of the Holy
Spirit of God the creator Himself !!

Our Father has said:

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the [women] that sew
pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of
every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people,
and will ye save the souls alive [that come] unto you?

And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley
and for pieces of bread , to slay the souls that should not die, and
to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my
people that hear [your] lies?

Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against your
pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly,
and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go,
[even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them] fly .

Patrick

 

[Willis Deal]

Congratulations, you've connected the end times with trumpets. you have taken the first step.

-----------------"Now remember, last trump means last trump right? There will be no more trumpets sounded after this one. Nadda more trumpets. Correct? Last means no more afterward."----------

Well... last does not necessarily mean final. If you ask a condemned prisoner if they've had their last meal, then 'last' means final. If you ask your skinny sister when was the last time she ate, 'last' would not imply she would never eat again.

But this is not my main answer, only showing how a simple word like 'last' can have several shadings of meanings in the english language, to a person with our culture and background. If we really want to understand what Paul was talking about we must consider that he was a messianic pharasee of the jewish culture. Paul was well educated, and very well versed in Jewish tradition and religion. What would 'last trump' mean to such a person? Well for one, 'Last trump' is one of the names used for 'Rosh HaShanah', the Feast of Trumpets. This holiday always falls on a new moon (dark of the moon), and because of of the complexities of calculating when this holiday will occur it is also known as 'The day no man knoweth' (food for thought). This holiday is understood to represent judgement. We know that the Passover feast was also a prophecy of Jesus (you do know that don't you?), so would other feasts also have prophetic significance? I don't have room to go into these things on this forum, but if you really want to understand prophecy broaden your horizons. Here are a couple links to look at concerning 'Rosh HaShanah'

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/chap7.html

http://www.studiesintheword.org/sermons/Feast_of_Trumpets.html

 

[stratman44]

Brother Willis,

I hadn't expected a master theologian so quickly. Greetings.

The english word "last" in 1Cor 15:52 was derived from the

original greek text - eschatos es'-khat-os

which is defined as - (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

The original Greek text for "trump" in 1Cor 15:52 is:

salpigx sal'-pinx - (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:--trump(-et).

The original Greek text for "trumpet" in Mathew 24:31 - is also

salpigx - with the same definition as the prior.


As for the symbolism of the word "trump" it matters not. They could both mean that Jesus will come ringing a dinner bell and it would be irrelevant. But as long as they both possess the same definition, then what I've established in my prior thread still stands.


God bless,
Steven

 

[Willis Deal]

Greetings Steven, I am usually not so formal as to exchange greetings since internet communications are usually abbreviated. But since you started it I'll return the courtesy lest others view me as rude.

I am not a master theologian, though it is a title worthy of attainment. You have put a bit of work into your reply and it contains the necessary elements to support your position from scripture. However, my point is that a simple definition of words has not conveyed the full meanings of the phrase 'last trump'

I had rather hoped you would take the time to read the two links I posted. I know they are rather long so I'll post a brief excerpt:

--------In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31).---------------

The relevance is this. To a first century Jew 'last trump' does not mean 'final trumpet' since there is a 'great trump' which follows. In essence 'last trump' when used together have a connotation beyond the simple definitions of the two words separately.

God is trying to tell us so much more than we can comprehend. We do well to study the greek and hebrew, it brings us closer to understanding what He is sayiing to us, but it is not enough. To understand the depths of God's revelation to us we must learn from Him, and not impose our own narrow interpretation upon His word.

God bless

 

[stratman44]

Brother Willis,

Hasn't the Lord given us but one Book from which we are to support any and all findings from? If it were necessary for me to understand His Word by drawing from outside sources wouldn't this make the Bible incomplete?

I understand what you're saying concerning the phrase "last trump" and I will be expounding on this further but don't have the time right now. Church calls. I'll be back.

Thank you for your responses,
Steven

 

[stratman44]

Praise the Lord!

I find it imperative that the only support for scripture must come from scripture itself. Namely the Holy Bible as directly transcribed from the original Greek text. This is the only Book that has the power to save souls. This is the Book that is the Living Word of God. I believe the King James Version is the closest english transcription to the Greek text that we have available to us today. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

If we say that we must look to other text sources outside of the Holy Bible for interpretation then we open up ourselves to many misleading influences.

I find only one reference in the Holy Bible to the phrase "last trump" and that is in 1Cor 15:52. I want to note also that we are dealing with the Great Tribulation of the last days in this thread. If we take note of the events during the Great Tribulation in Revelation we'll notice a succession of trumpets during the outpouring of God's wrath during this time.

Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet , Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

As in any succession in an event (the tribulation) there is always that one that comes "last".

But let it be known too that I do not rest my declaration that the Body of Christ will indeed go through the Great Tribulation soley on trumpets.

I ask everyone reading this. How many times will Jesus gather the saints to Himself? Is there anywhere in the Bible that speaks of this event happening more than once? Will there be two weddings of the Bride and the Bridegroom?

If the Body of Christ is to be taken away before the Great Tribulation then how could there be yet another gathering of the saints, the "elect", at Jesus' return after the Great Tribulation?

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation , the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The coming of Jesus and the gathering of the Body of Christ obviously are simultaneous.

Fear has caused the deception of a pre-tribulation "rapture" of the Body of Christ. Fear only God!

Psa 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee."

This tribulation is to be a time when God's glory will truly be made manifest through the Body of His Precious Son.

The whole human experience has been established for one sole reason - To bring Glory to the Father! Amen!

Your brother in Christ,
Steven

 

[truthseeker2758]

This is very interesting Steven. Thank you.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Now if we go back and look at Corinthians:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Back to Revealation chap 11 now.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

later folks

 

[Willis Deal]

Brothers,

I've decided that since my words are often blunt that it is best to begin this post with a confirmation of our brotherhood in Christ. Although we may disagree on the proper understanding of certain points of the bible I believe we all agree on the basic tenants that makes us brothers in Christ.

I want to say that fear does not motivate me to believe either one thing or another. The Lord has provided for all my needs and many of my wants during this present time, and as long as I avoid throwing obstacles in the path of His blessings there is no reason to believe He won't continue to do so. My conclusions as to a pretribulation rapture came after months of intensive biblical study and prayer, and I began my studies with the belief that a pre-trib rapture was a false teaching.

My first post was to point out that Last Trump doesn't necessarily mean 'final trumpet'. According to the english definition of the word 'last' and the greek definition of its counterpart we see that definitions other than 'final' are NOT excluded. I've also provided evidence and documentation that to the first century Jewish mind 'Last trump' doesn't mean 'final'. At the very least I have provided grounds for 'reasonable doubt'.

Steven, I'm sure you have other verses, probably many more, to support your position of a post trib rapture. During my studies I had to disprove many of them. I won't bother to do that here, it would take too much time. My sole point was to dispute your initial claim, ie that 'last trump' proved post trib.

I shall now reason with you from scripture. Do we agree that Jesus fulfilled the Law? That if He transgressed in one law that He transgressed all and is not worthy to be the sacrificial lamb that takes away the sins of the world? That God would not create a law that He Himself (through Jesus) would be unable or unwilling to keep? I can quote verse for each of these if there is any doubt, so...

2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Deu 20:7 And what man [is there] that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

Deu 24:5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: [but] he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

So Jesus is engaged and by God's law he is prohibited from going out to war, and once married is prohibited from conducting business and going to war for one year. So tell me, how can Jesus come on a white horse as described in Rev 19 unless He has already been married for at least one year?

QUOTE-------I ask everyone reading this. How many times will Jesus gather the saints to Himself? Is there anywhere in the Bible that speaks of this event happening more than once? Will there be two weddings of the Bride and the Bridegroom?

If the Body of Christ is to be taken away before the Great Tribulation then how could there be yet another gathering of the saints, the "elect", at Jesus' return after the Great Tribulation?----

You assume that all believers are the bride. The bible does not teach this. The disciples were 'friends of the Bridegroom' not the bride, 'the ten virgins' are not the bride, 'the wedding guests' are not the bride.

Is there more than one gathering of saints? Of course. The wedding parable in Luke and Matthew speaks of the a gathering and judgment of both the rightous and wicked AT THE SAME TIME. This cannot be the first resurection since only 'The dead in Christ' and 'Those that remain' are gathered. Lest you protest that I'm relying on a 'parable' I'll give you Mat 12:41, The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here. Luke gives essentially the same account, that of the righteous and wicked being judged at the same time. Now how many times will God judge the same person? My guess is only once, but since we have the rightous having more than one judgment it appears there MUST be several gatherings.

 

[stratman44]

Brother Willis,

I must apologize too. I read over my own words and feel the bluntness and it doesn't appeal to me at all.

The reason I started this thread is because I find little support for a pre-trib "rapture", whereas I do find support for this event happening directly upon Jesus' second coming. And this 2nd coming is without scriptural doubt at the end of the Tribulation.

If any of my comments have been taken as being directed at you personally, please forgive me. I find this forum an excellent means in which to spur myself to dig deeper into the Word. It causes all of us to dig deeper and this is most definitely a good thing.

I hope to continue this thread for sometime. Soley for the sake of uncovering things I have not uncovered before. You have helped so much in this. This is another reason I started this thread. To either more firmly establish my own beliefs within myself as well as uproot those beliefs that are false or incorrect.

Regardless of all this I thank God above that we all agree on the awesome grace of salvation that Jesus has afforded us through His work on the cross. Praise the Lord!

I must concede on the Body of Christ even being related to the Bride of Christ. I don't know where I've picked up this teaching. Thank you for uncovering this. Scripture gives direct definition of the "Bride" of Christ in Revelation.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride , the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

I'll be back with more later...........keep those posts coming Willis!

God bless!
Steven

 

[Debbie]

TRuthseeker, very well put, thanks, I noticed. In fact, add Rev. 11:11. there is the first resurrection of the dead in Christ occuring right before verse 15 which you quoted of the last trump. I have confidence that God can make the last trump mentioned in the Word be the same trump at some feast if He so chooses.
Rev 20:4-6 also proves the rapture is not pre trib. God's word states:"THis is the first resurrection". It says the dead trib saints who refused the mark of the beast in their hands & foreheads will reign with christ 1000 yrs.
So REv 20:4-6 states clearly that the 1st resurrection (verse 5) is AFTER people were "beheaded"(verse 4) for not taking the mark of the beast.

 

[stratman44]

Praise the Lord!

I still stand firm on my evidence concerning a post-trib rapture. I've been studying the information you've supplied brother Willis. Even though I find it to further support what I've been saying, I still must hold to the fact that if we stray from the Holy Bible to find our answers we set ourselves up for deception. Even if it is from the Messianic Jewish sect.

I also must retract my concession on my previous thread concerning we believers not being the Bride of Christ. Those who are faithful to Christ are indeed to be the Bride of Christ.

"Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem , which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." - New Jerusalem being the Bride.

I've studied the links given more closely concerning the "last trump" and correct me if I'm wrong, but according to Messianic Jewish literature the "last trump" aka - "shofar" is the Ram's horn blown on Rosh Hashana and at the end of Yom Kippur." And "Yom Kippur" is a day of "judgement, repentance, and forgiveness".

Judgement Day on earth is to be when Jesus returns:

"2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Which has just added more to my case of the Body of Christ being present on the earth when Jesus returns. The above passage was spoken by Paul to Timothy. All these followers in the New Testament church were looking for Christ to return and rule on earth while they were still on earth.

And more evidence of this still......

Here Jesus is speaking to the twelve apostles concerning the events of the Tribulation. At the end of this He says to the twelve apostles:

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Remember Jesus is replying directly to the twelve apostles here. Why would His people (apostles, believers), have to "look up" if they were indeed "raptured" beforehand and coming "with" Him in the clouds? Notice too that "redemption draweth nigh". As in the redemption of our earthly bodies transformed into celestial bodies perhaps? In order for anyone to be "raptured" this would have to occur first. This shows Jesus coming in the cloud, yet redemption still is in waiting.

There's more but I don't want a mile long thread here. It tends to get too messy and confusing.

I wanted to thank brother Garry too. Awesome find! Looking into what sister Debbie is talking about now.

God bless!
Steven

 

[Willis Deal]

Steven,

I agree with your point that long posts leads to a confusing thread. If it is agreeable with you and the others here would it be possible to limit ourselves to one or at most two points at a time? With that in mind I'd like to go back to your premise of using the KJV bible exclusively for interpretation of God's word. I can't find this in the bible anywhere, and it is impossible to accomplish. I assume we all use a concordance or greek/hebrew lexicon to learn the meanings of words. I hope that you also have a dictonary on hand. In addition to this we also have varying amounts of education in our backgrounds which we bring to the table. How else would we have any concept of what it means to 'have the face of a lion'. There are no pictures of lions, or bears, or dragons in the bible, and several of these animals aren't described in detail in the bible, so how is it that we have an image in our minds of the face of a lion unless we've seen that image outside of the context of the bible?

The bible was written to men of all ages, of all cultures. We are unable to study the bible without bringing in our own cultural bias to the study. Does my American culture, education, beliefs help in my understanding of the bible? If it does then wouldn't a chineese student need to learn the american culture to better understand the bible? or perhaps I should learn the chineese culture to understand the bible from his perspective? Should I spend my life studying the cultures of the world in order to expand my understanding of the word? This is silly. In order to avoid imposing my own cultural bias on the scripture it would be better to understand the culture of the people in which the bible was written, and to do that we sometimes have to look for sources outside the bible for this education. Show me from the word of God where this is sin...

That was my first point. My second point is to ask again, 'How can Jesus come on the white horse until at least a year after the marriage without being a transgressor of the law?'

 

[stratman44]

Praise the Lord!

Brother Willis you have indeed opened a very large can of worms here. I say this with all due respect and humility. I'm going back through and covering all you have presented. Starting with the Feast of Trumpets.

You said you once believed the Body of Christ would be caught up as described in 1 Cor 15:52 after the Tribulation.

Would it be too indepth for you to give the reasons you've taken a different stance? Perhaps give an outline of the key elements that changed your view on this? The topic areas that you found relevant to the rapture. I know you've been doing this as we go but if it were in one post it would be easier to view.

So far I see the topics as:

- Feast of Trumpets
- The Bride not all believers
- Jesus being bound by all laws given in God's Word


You'll have to excuse me brother Willis. After reviewing your posts I see that I am indeed not covering all basis here as I should be.

God bless,
Steven

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Great work here Willis,
I sure am glad you are taking this on, and I encourage you to keep it up. I too believe that you must have at least some knowledge of the Jewish Feasts. Salvation was offered first to the Jew, and the bible was written in the Holy Land. God gave very strict regulations for them to follow, and it wasn't all for nothing. Also, the days in the tribulation won't be measured by an American calendar, for the years will consist of 360 days each. For this, you must go back to Israel. I don't believe one could prove any theory at all, by looking only at the trumpets. I tried to study them once, and did, but there are just too many places in the bible about them. It is only more mind boggling. You have men blowing trumpets, Watchmen blowing trumpets, angels with trumpets and God himself, go figure but good luck. The Jewish feasts were very important in the old testament, and I agree with you, you must have some understanding of the Jewish traditions that came from our Father. Good job brother! !

Hello to you also Steven,
I really don't believe that the Lord would have me here to argue, but I did answer some of this on another thread where you asked pretty much the same questions. Go to "WHERE IS AMERICA IN THE LAST DAYS ?" I would bring it here, but I'm not that good on computers, and I only type with one finger - YIKES. But I am also glad to see that it appears that you have a good attitude, and not a combative one. Otherwise I probably would not have responded at all. Brother Willis is doing a marvelous job, so I'll let him fight this out for a while. I'm pretty busy again.

 

[stratman44]

Praise the Lord!

I guess what really struck me is that this issue has obviously been batted back and forth since the first copy of Paul's epistles hit the streets. It will never be definite until it occurs.

I also see that I've fallen into the age old trap of disputing doctrine when I should be devoting time strictly to emptying myself from "self" in order that the Holy Spirit may dwell in me more fully and operate through me more strongly to suit His purpose. This thread has helped in another step toward that mark.

How about a thread on "How to die to self"? haha!

There's only One who is right and He will present but one passage from scripture when we finally stand before Him.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


God bless,
Steven

 

[camaro540]

Hi Willis Deal

I have a question for you. What do you consider to be the
last trump? In other words, the last trump of what,
say, the Feast of Trumpets? or some other feast?

Did you know that we are in the 7th or Sabbatical millennium
since Creation, as of 18 Oct 2001?

Patrick

 

[Willis Deal]

So many questions and it is almost time to go to work... so I'll tackle the 'easiest' in what short time I have and answer Patrick. I don't believe we are in the sabbatical mellennium yet. I believe the sabbatical 1000 years is the start of the tribulation period. I believe, but cannot prove, that there are errors in the Jewish calender which prohibit an accurate analysis of exactly when the 7000th year begins. At some point in the near future the jewish holidays on the current calendar will match God's calendar and the countdown will begin. Like I stated, this is speculation on my part and I cannot prove it, but based on things which I think I understand about what God is telling us this is the only scenario which reconciles all the facts as I understand them to be. I don't have a ready answer as to exactly what the last trump refers to. I believe it is in reference to Rosh HaShanah but it has been nearly five years since I studied this in detail so I can't simply answer your question off the top of my head. In any event, it is not my purpose to convince anyone that the pre-trib rapture teaching is correct. If it is false then it is a very dangerous heresy, and I certainly don't want to lead anyone astray. The end times are a time of deception, and the bad thing about deception is that those deceived don't know it, so I could easily be wrong and totally convinced that I am right. I feel that my main purpose here is to help others see that there are other meanings and explanations for verses, and that there are a multitude of verses to consider, and that we can't take just one or two and declare the mystery solved.

To Steven, I guess you could say what started me down the road to pre-trib was the need to reconcile apparently contradictory verses so that all verses could still be true and accurate. I once had a wall chart that I created to keep things in order, and as I discovered bible verses and God revealed meanings to me I copied the verses on index cards and stuck them to the chart. I had to do a lot of rearranging to account for all verses and still there are some things which I've never been able to explain. So I don't claim to have all the answers or a complete understanding. I still have my wall chart but during the course of moving I've lose the verses which were attached, so my notes are not complete. But as I get opportunity I'll try to reconstruct important portions. If you'd like I'll set aside my conclusions and we'll start from scratch, provided you'll do the same and we allow God to reveal to us what He wants us to know.

 

[Willis Deal]

To Debbie,

The 'first resurection' began with Jesus Christ when he arose on the third day. Scripture fully supports this and declares Christ to be 'first fruits of those who sleep'. I believe Luke also gives further details that there were other saints who were also resurected at the same time as Christ, and while we could assume they were Lazarus like resurections of the biological body it seems unlikely. So the first resurection began 2000 years ago and the announcement in Rev. 20: 4-6 is announcing the completion of the first resurection.

 

[Debbie]

Willis, I understand what you wrote, but don't get your intent on REv.20:5.
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Yes I understand that Jesus was the first fruit. This verse says to me that the rest of the dead won't be raised up until the 1000 yrs are over.
That the end of the first resurrection ends with the beginning of the 1000 yr reign of Christ.
Are you saying that there will be many separate raptures all the way up until the 1000 yr reign?