Pope, King of the world?

[WarriorAngel]

Continued...

I now inquire into your opinion, (to see) from what source you usurp this right to the Church.
If, because the Lord has said to Peter, Upon this rock will I build My Church, to you have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom; or, Whatsoever you shall have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens, you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? On you, He says, will I build My Church; and, I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and, Whatsoever you shall have loosed or bound, not what they shall have loosed or bound. For so withal the result teaches. In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key; you see what (key): Men of Israel, let what I say sink into your ears: Jesus the Nazarene, a man destined by God for you, and so forth. (Peter) himself, therefore, was the first to unbar, in Christ's baptism, the entrance to the heavenly kingdom, in which (kingdom) are loosed the sins that were beforetime bound; and those which have not been loosed are bound, in accordance with true salvation; and Ananias he bound with the bond of death, and the weak in his feet he absolved from his defect of health. Moreover, in that dispute about the observance or non-observance of the Law, Peter was the first of all to be endued with the Spirit, and, after making preface touching the calling of the nations, to say, And now why are you tempting the Lord, concerning the imposition upon the brethren of a yoke which neither we nor our fathers were able to support? But however, through the grace of Jesus we believe that we shall be saved in the same way as they. This sentence both loosed those parts of the law which were abandoned, and bound those which were reserved. Hence the power of loosing and of binding committed to Peter had nothing to do with the capital sins of believers; and if the Lord had given him a precept that he must grant pardon to a brother sinning against him even seventy times sevenfold, of course He would have commanded him to bind— that is, to retain — nothing subsequently, unless perchance such (sins) as one may have committed against the Lord, not against a brother. For the forgiveness of (sins) committed in the case of a man is a prejudgment against the remission of sins against God.

AND I could continue...because there are so many writings on Peter...

But I think you possibly get the point.

 

[GuardianShua]

Who is left holding the key-s? Yahshua is. It makes no since for him to hand over what God has just granted him. Since other scripture disagrees with that one verse, then it was probably CANonized.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Continued...

What, now, (has this to do) with the Church, and your (church), indeed, Psychic? For, in accordance with the person of Peter, it is to spiritual men that this power will correspondently appertain, either to an apostle or else to a prophet. For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One Divinity— Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (The Spirit) combines that Church which the Lord has made to consist in three. And thus, from that time forward, every number (of persons) who may have combined together into this faith is accounted a Church, from the Author and Consecrator (of the Church). And accordingly the Church, it is true, will forgive sins: but (it will be) the Church of the Spirit, by means of a spiritual man; not the Church which consists of a number of bishops. For the right and arbitrament is the Lord's, not the servant's; God's Himself, not the priest's.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Who is left holding the key-s? Yahshua is. It makes no since for him to hand over what God has just granted him. Since other scripture disagrees with that one verse, then it was probably CANonized.

That statement doesn't that have historical fact ~ nor does it have scriptural proof..
You are making statements of your opinion, without which you haven't provided the proof of your statements.

Jesus - is not TIED to an earthly kingdom or an earthly king - which would be David.

For Rev. also mentions the key of David and it also speaks of the man who holds it has but little faith...
Jesus does not nor ever had little faith - for He IS God.

Isaiah speaks of the Master leaving the key to His house to His steward and that only that steward can open and shut the door with that key.

The keys Jesus refers to ARE HANDED TO PETER quite succintly.

HE clearly stated that He handed the key to Peter - because as the Master Who was leaving - He was setting up the Steward to His House - His Kingdom.

HOW can you even say Jesus didn't give the keys to anyone He just obtained?

Apparently and evidently - the scriptures of this assignment came while Jesus was yet alive...and as such prooves He didn't need to die to be Master - because He already was...

And as such He set those keys upon Peter.

It doesn't get more obvious than that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What, now, (has this to do) with the Church, and your (church), indeed, Psychic

Greeting WA. The 7 churches in Revelation are essentially ONE Church if I am not mistaken, each one having qualities unique to them. It can either be type of an OC Assembly still under the Mosaic Law trying to convert to the NC under JESUS. Note especially the 4th and 6th Assemblies.
Do the RCs study on these by any chance?

Acts 7:30 mentions the "Assembly" in the Wilderness but remember also the Hebrew Israelites consisted of 12 Tribes seperated into 4 Groups around the OC Tabernacle. Thoughts?

Acts 7:30 And of being filled years, forty, was seen to him in the wilderness of the mount Sinai a messenger of Lord, in a Flame of fire of a bush. 38 This is the one-becoming in the Out-Called/ekklhsia <1577> in the wilderness with the Messenger the one speaking to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers who receives oracles/words, living, to give to us. [Luke 16:24]

Reve 1:11 saying: "which thou are beholding write! into a scroll and send! to the seven Out-Calleds/ekklhsiaiV <1577>.
Into Efeson, and into Smurnan, and into Pergamon and into Quateira and into Sardei and into Filadelfeian and into Laodikeian"

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon,

Please provide a source for this if you would.

Thanks,

Jack

SOURCE: Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica by Lucius Ferraris ("Handy Library"), Vol. 5, Latin, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne,

I haven't found that specific Ferraris library ONLINE... but this one quotes and refers to the one containing columns 1823-24... I've highlighted specifically #30 for your ease which refers to modifying divine law.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MX4tAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT452&lpg=PT452&dq=%22Prompta+Bibliotheca+Canonica%22+%22leges+divinas+modificare%22&source=bl&ots=pFMjAFLjvP&sig=L64lqLVebApqdEY_JZxE547_QWg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

 

[GuardianShua]

That statement doesn't that have historical fact ~ nor does it have scriptural proof..
You are making statements of your opinion, without which you haven't provided the proof of your statements.

Jesus - is not TIED to an earthly kingdom or an earthly king - which would be David.

For Rev. also mentions the key of David and it also speaks of the man who holds it has but little faith...
Jesus does not nor ever had little faith - for He IS God.

Isaiah speaks of the Master leaving the key to His house to His steward and that only that steward can open and shut the door with that key.

The keys Jesus refers to ARE HANDED TO PETER quite succintly.

HE clearly stated that He handed the key to Peter - because as the Master Who was leaving - He was setting up the Steward to His House - His Kingdom.

HOW can you even say Jesus didn't give the keys to anyone He just obtained?

Apparently and evidently - the scriptures of this assignment came while Jesus was yet alive...and as such prooves He didn't need to die to be Master - because He already was...

And as such He set those keys upon Peter.

It doesn't get more obvious than that.

# Matthew 16:19
I will give you the key-s of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

# Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Matthew 16:17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father(Also known as the Rock) in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this (or that Rock) rock I will build my church,...
It is more like Yahshua to glorify the Father.
Revelation 10
The Angel and the Little Scroll
1Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.

 

[simonthezealot]

Was it written by the Pope? I have yet to see where it was...

Are you basing this on Simon's link? Or do you have additional information as yet not said?

I have posted the Bull as transcribed from 1925 and it fails to include this #13 line that the OP has presented. Seems kind of fishy...

Jack you need to slow down...
The lists of papal definitions are NOT part of unam sanctum..
I was showing multiple writings approved by the church that state how he is to be viewed by christians...
That list is from a canonical library...

 

[DD2008]

Let's assume you never read the history of the Church...
Wait - this post's criticism shows you didn't.

I have read Church history. I quoted exactly what it says in the last sentance of Unam Sanctum. Which is this:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Which I have copied from this source:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm

I believe this statement is a false teaching. It contradicts scripture. What about my study of Church history did I miss that would tell me it is acceptable for the pope to contradict scripture? Perhaps you are correct and I missed that paragraph.

 

[simonthezealot]

Continued...

Warrior, with all due respect, please spare us the trentolike massive cut n pastes... A link will suffice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Warrior, with all due respect, please spare us the trentolike massive cut n pastes... A link will suffice.

 

[Standing Up]

SOF wrote: 2-Jesus' words in Matthew are a QUOTATION of the Old Testament.


Matthew 16 says:

"I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
​

This is a quote of Isaiah 22:22
Isaiah 22:19-22 reads:

"I will thrust you from your office (speaking of Shebna who is the Prime Minister of the kingdom) and pull you down from your station. On that day I will summon my servant Eliakin, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open."


​

Please note two things in your discussion.

1) Jesus will give the keys. This is future tense. It hasn't happened yet. This is further confirmed by Jesus saying:

2) Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

unless, of course, you are prepared to state that that is Peter speaking.

If you reply, well I meant keys plural, rather than key, please further note that again it is again Christ Jesus who retains the keys up to this moment.

Rev. 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

As to your Shebna (the scribe) understanding, here is what Christ Jesus says, Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

 

[simonthezealot]

Please note two things in your discussion.

1) Jesus will give the keys. This is future tense. It hasn't happened yet. This is further confirmed by Jesus saying:

2) Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

unless, of course, you are prepared to state that that is Peter speaking.

If you reply, well I meant keys plural, rather than key, please further note that again it is again Christ Jesus who retains the keys up to this moment.

Rev. 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

As to your Shebna (the scribe) understanding, here is what Christ Jesus says, Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

.

 

[Brennin]

.

Why do you guys make so many threads on the pope?


.

Because scripture warns us against the papacy.

 

[Brennin]

That statement doesn't that have historical fact ~ nor does it have scriptural proof..
You are making statements of your opinion, without which you haven't provided the proof of your statements.

Jesus - is not TIED to an earthly kingdom or an earthly king - which would be David.

For Rev. also mentions the key of David and it also speaks of the man who holds it has but little faith...
Jesus does not nor ever had little faith - for He IS God.

Isaiah speaks of the Master leaving the key to His house to His steward and that only that steward can open and shut the door with that key.

The keys Jesus refers to ARE HANDED TO PETER quite succintly.

HE clearly stated that He handed the key to Peter - because as the Master Who was leaving - He was setting up the Steward to His House - His Kingdom.

HOW can you even say Jesus didn't give the keys to anyone He just obtained?

Apparently and evidently - the scriptures of this assignment came while Jesus was yet alive...and as such prooves He didn't need to die to be Master - because He already was...

And as such He set those keys upon Peter.

It doesn't get more obvious than that.

Jesus gave the keys to all of the apostles. Binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Also, there is zero support for the Roman Church's claim that Peter's ecclesiastical dignity is transferable.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

.

LOL!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jesus gave the keys to all of the apostles. Binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Also, there is zero support for the Roman Church's claim that Peter's ecclesiastical dignity is transferable.

Actually you are wrong. Jesus at no time in scripture gave keys to the other Apostles. However, you are correct that the other Apostles shared in it's authority.

 

[SecretOfFatima]

Excellent tread to help people grow further in their Catholic faith and hopefully plant some seeds into the hearts of those who are outside of the church.

Let me start to address catholics first who may in fact be questioning why does revelation 3:7 seem to contradict isaiah 22:22 and mathew 16.

I recommend that you listen or read some stuff by Scott Hahn, take no notice of what anti-Catholics say on this matter as they have no clue, Scott explains this very well, and nothing in revelation 3:7 contradicts what the church still believes today as it did back in the first century, and surely it does not contradictsthe fact that Jesus gave Peter the keys (authority) to administer authority and ecclesiastical discipline when it comes to church matters. Is biblical and does not put the Pope above Jesus in any way.

Here is an overview about Revelation 3:7 but please don't expect anyone outside of the church to take this in or to believe as this is not just what we believe.
hint: Holy Mass and the True Presence

Revelation 3:7 does describe Christ himself as a high priest (hint: isn't the book o revelation partially talking about the Holy Mass afterall?), while this passage for someone outside the church or for someone who does not truly understand what the Catholic church beliefs always have been, may sound as if Isaiah 22:22 and Matthew 16 cannot apply to the Pope, but in fact in my personal opinion it clearly does, obviouly if you don't understand the other teachings then you are not gone agree with this.

The above statement may briefly loose some people, but the fact is if protestants examine what the early church actually believed then they would find that their protestant beleives are truly not the teachings of the early church. what does that mean to follow a church that does tach what Jesus and apostoles teached? This is a question protestant themselfs need to ask themselves.
Here is a challenge for Protestants: http://www.fisheaters.com/challenge.html

We can look at the early church fathers writings and we know what scott describes today has allways been the church teaching, for that matter scott is simply just a reference but not the only reference, i personally like the away he explains stuff but as usual he has made many anti-catholic enemies out there, so i don't expect those attacking the church teachings to accept his explanations or even try to listen to scott's stuff, for catholics scott in my personal opinion can be trusted.

I have post a video link on the same matter earlier but by a diferent author, here is the link again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5001018275166568920



With regards to the title of this post, I completly agreed with JackTheCatholic this post should be called: Pope the Steward of Jesus Kingdom, however unfortunately for Catholics reading this thread, this thread name sounds more like: Simonthezealot, King of the world

 

[Standing Up]

Actually you are wrong. Jesus at no time in scripture gave keys to the other Apostles. However, you are correct that the other Apostles shared in it's authority.

Actually you are wrong. Jesus at no time in scripture gave keys to any of the Apostles.

Please note two things about Mt. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus will give the keys. This is future tense. It hasn't happened yet. This is further confirmed by Jesus saying:

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

unless, of course, you are prepared to state that that is Peter speaking.

If you reply, well I meant keys plural, rather than key, please further note that again it is again Christ Jesus who retains the keys up to this moment.

Rev. 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[SecretOfFatima]

In Matthew 18:18, the Apostles share in the power to bind and loose that was given to Peter in 16:19; what was given to Peter alone is now shared by the whole Church in the person of the Apostles.

Matthew 18:18, and John 20:22-23, Jesus gave all of the Apostles the power to forgive sins. This power was passed down through their descendants by the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Jesus gave the keys to all of the apostles. Binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Also, there is zero support for the Roman Church's claim that Peter's ecclesiastical dignity is transferable.